Heavenly Jerusalem

[Timtofly]

Hey Marty, I’m very skeptical of the bride being the church. Paul says we are the body of Christ but he doesn’t use the term bride.

In Jeremiah 3:14 God is married to backsliding Israel and in Isaiah 62:4 it says thy land shall be married. I would say New Jerusalem (a city) is tied to the land being married.

There is also the problem of the wife making herself ready in Revelation 19:7. The church doesn’t make herself ready, Christ makes the church ready, we are not saved by works but by the grace of God.

Why would you think Jesus would marry the new covenant then?

You called the New Jerusalem the same thing as the new Covenant.

No one is marrying any one. That is the relationship between Jesus and certain people. Those redeemed on earth make up the body as representing Jesus on the earth. The church is not the literal body of Jesus on the earth. The church does not marry Israel per the body of Christ marrying Israel the bride of Christ.

You all run into all sorts of trouble when you get way ahead of God and His Sovereign will.

Jesus never married Israel in the OT, neither did God. That was an anology of the relationship between God and Israel.


But you cannot have the church come down as the bride in the first century. That is your interpretation of the New Jerusalem. The church was not even complete 2,000 years ago. The New Covenant did not descend from heaven. That was what the Cross was for. That is not even a good anology.

John tells you the New Jerusalem was adorned as a bride, not that the New Jerusalem was a literal bride. The church is in heaven, not as the body of Christ, but as the bride waiting. Don't you think the church is in heaven as the New Jerusalem?

Where do you think all the church from the very beginning are waiting, if not in heaven? The church left sheol and entered heaven, but you claim heaven came to earth instead?

The church in heaven is not distinguished between OT and NT. That is an historical earthly perspective. The majority of the church is already gathered in heaven and has not descended from heaven at this point.

The New Jerusalem is not a handful of millions on earth at any given moment, but is the majority and billions already in heaven.

The church is not mentioned at all in Revelation 19:7 to the end of the chapter. But just to say that is the church, what is wrong with saying that the church is preparing or getting ready in heaven? What needs to happen in heaven at that point? Why are you still viewing the church on earth at all? Certainly only a handful would even be on the earth at that point, if any, and they would need to be made ready as they are still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

The point about the wedding in Revelation 19, is that national Israel has finally been made ready for the thousand year reign on the earth, which you don't accept either.

Jesus is reigning in heaven as that is what the Word has always done as the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. There is no start nor finish to that reign as it has and will last all of Creation.

But the actual relationship as Prince and King over Israel has never happened. The Word did not reign in OT Israel. The Law and the prophets had that relationship with earthly Israel. The 7th Trumpet has not started yet. That is when the earthly kingdoms are finally prepared for their eternal King to rule over them without the burden of Adam's punishment and transgression. Those people on white horses are all the people of every nation prepared for a relationship with Jesus as King, once Satan is defeated and bound in the pit. Every last human on earth will have that perfect marriage relationship with Jesus in analogy. They have on the garments of righteousness as proof.

"And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

That is when Daniel 9:24 is finally realized.

The getting prepared part is learning the song of Moses on the sea of glass.

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

How can you place all these activities in heaven prior to the Cross, and then declare the New Jerusalem comes down, when it cannot come down until a thousand years are over, when those singing the song of Moses on the sea of glass come down in Revelation 19? No one was even allowed in heaven, but had to wait in sheol, until the Cross, and then were released from sheol to enter Paradise. The sea of glass was empty until the Second Coming, and the final harvest. Jesus was getting his earthly bride ready and preventing them from being made subject to Satan and that mark given to those who rejected the gift of salvation. The church was removed prior to Jesus preparing His earthly bride.

The church is made up of all those prior to the Second Coming. The earthly bride are those post the Second Coming. But it seems hard for many to distinguish between the two, because many deny a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth, after sin has been totally eradicated, and there are no more souls in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

And the majority of 6,000 years of life on earth as the OT congregation and the NT church, are already in heaven, not waiting on earth somewhere to be raptured to heaven.

 

[quietthinker]

Heavenly Jeru salem​

Jeru = City of
Salem = Peace

There is not nor will there be any peace in the earthly city named Jerusalem.

The name Jerusalem is also symbolic. Firstly it is an abode wherein dwells righteousness and secondly, it is the representative title/ name of all God's people. See Revelation 21:2-3, 9-19

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @IndianaRob,

It’s a place set in heaven and in the heart.

“Some of the Pharisees asked Jesus, “When will God’s kingdom come?” Jesus answered, “God’s kingdom is coming, but not in a way that you can see it. People will not say, ‘Look, God’s kingdom is here!’ or ‘There it is!’ No, God’s kingdom is here with you.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭ERV‬‬

“Sarah was not able to have children, and Abraham was too old. But he had faith in God, trusting him to do what he promised. And so God made them able to have children. Abraham was so old he was almost dead. But from that one man came as many descendants as there are stars in the sky. So many people came from him that they are like grains of sand on the seashore. All these great people continued living with faith until they died. They did not get the things God promised his people. But they were happy just to see those promises coming far in the future. They accepted the fact that they were like visitors and strangers here on earth. When people accept something like that, they show they are waiting for a country that will be their own. If they were thinking about the country they had left, they could have gone back. But they were waiting for a better country—a heavenly country. So God is not ashamed to be called their God. And he has prepared a city for them.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11‬:‭11‬-‭16‬ ‭ERV‬‬

Revelation 21-22.

 

[MatthewG]

Heavenly Jeru salem​

Jeru = City of
Salem = Peace

There is not nor will there be any peace in the earthly city named Jerusalem.

The name Jerusalem is also symbolic. Firstly it is an abode wherein dwells righteousness and secondly, it is the representative title/ name of all God's people. See Revelation 21:2-3, 9-19

Hello Qt,

Reminds me also of these words too, as yes that is the name Jerusalem represented.

“We have been made right with God because of our faith. So we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through our faith, Christ has brought us into that blessing of God’s grace that we now enjoy. And we are very happy because of the hope we have of sharing God’s glory. And we are also happy with the troubles we have. Why are we happy with troubles? Because we know that these troubles make us more patient. And this patience is proof that we are strong. And this proof gives us hope. And this hope will never disappoint us. We know this because God has poured out his love to fill our hearts through the Holy Spirit he gave us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭5‬ ‭ERV‬‬

“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭3‬, ‭5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[quietthinker]

Hello Qt,

Reminds me also of these words too, as yes that is the name Jerusalem represented.

“We have been made right with God because of our faith. So we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through our faith, Christ has brought us into that blessing of God’s grace that we now enjoy. And we are very happy because of the hope we have of sharing God’s glory. And we are also happy with the troubles we have. Why are we happy with troubles? Because we know that these troubles make us more patient. And this patience is proof that we are strong. And this proof gives us hope. And this hope will never disappoint us. We know this because God has poured out his love to fill our hearts through the Holy Spirit he gave us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭5‬ ‭ERV‬‬

“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭3‬, ‭5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Could we say we are justified by God/ Jesus..... because he is gracious beyond our imagination and our faith takes hold of this reality which the Spirit has impressed upon our hearts?

 

[MatthewG]

Could we say we are justified by God/ Jesus..... because he is gracious beyond our imagination and our faith takes hold of this reality which the Spirit has impressed upon our hearts?

I don't know.

Hebrews 12:15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God, and that no root of bitterness springs up to cause trouble and defile many.

 

[grafted branch]

Jesus never married Israel in the OT, neither did God. That was an anology of the relationship between God and Israel.

In Jeremiah 3:14 the LORD says He is married to backsliding Israel, this points to the covenant made with Israel. If you want to say the covenant is the marriage contract and that is the relationship between God and Israel, I think that’s correct, I’m not arguing against that. But when you say there was no marriage to Israel then I have to disagree based on Jeremiah 3:14.

However that same old covenant analogy doesn’t work with the new covenant. The old covenant is bilateral while the new covenant is unilateral.

Why would you think Jesus would marry the new covenant then?

In Matthew 22:1-14 is the parable of the wedding banquet. The banquet is furnished with guests who are not the bride yet they have wedding garments. If we apply the analogy of “the marriage = the relationship between God and His people”, then the guests, who have wedding garments, don’t have a new covenant (marriage) relationship with the groom. The guests are not the bride as some people will try to insist on.

If we say the Matthew 22:1-14 marriage is pointing to Christ marrying His covenant, His unilateral covenant, then we can have guests at that wedding directly benefiting from the arrangement but they aren’t the bride itself.

Looking at Revelation 19:8, we can see that the bride is clothed in the righteousness of the saints. In Isaiah 64:6 all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, yet in Revelation 19:8 it’s described as clean and white. We don’t make ourselves ready or righteous, it’s only through His blood of the new covenant that this is possible. Again it’s unilateral, one sided, only the blood and not our actions, by grace, not works.

Revelation 19:9 says blessed are they which are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. This statement points us directly back to Matthew 22:1-14 where the guests are not the bride. I’m not overly dogmatic about the bride being the new covenant but it seems to fit with the wedding parables. When we say the church is the bride, that’s when you run into all sorts of trouble, you essentially say the new covenant is bilateral not unilateral.

The point about the wedding in Revelation 19, is that national Israel has finally been made ready for the thousand year reign on the earth, which you don't accept either.

That makes more sense than the new covenant church being the bride but you have the problem of Jeremiah 3:14 already stating that the LORD was married to backsliding Israel. Do you suppose God gets divorced from Israel then gets married to her again or do you see it some other way?

 

[Zao is life]

I want to see people think heavenly Jerusalem is.

Are you still waiting for it to descend out of heaven or are you living in it now?

Are you still waiting for the Holy Spirit to descend from heaven or did it happen on the Day of Pentecost?
Are you still waiting for Christ to descend from heaven or did it happen on the Day of Pentecost?

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 ¶ And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 ¶ And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 ¶ But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

John 14; 1 Thess 4; Rev 21

 

[IndianaRob]

Are you still waiting for the Holy Spirit to descend from heaven or did it happen on the Day of Pentecost?
Are you still waiting for Christ to descend from heaven or did it happen on the Day of Pentecost?

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 ¶ And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 ¶ And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 ¶ But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

John 14; 1 Thess 4; Rev 21

No I’m not waiting on anything,the kingdom is here and we should all be living in it.

 

[lforrest]

Psalm 110 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.". Take note of the word 'until.'

Jesus ascended to heaven and now sits at the right hand of the Father. Acts 7:55–56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 8:1; Hebrews 10:12; Hebrews 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22; Revelation 3:21; Matthew 22:44; Acts 2:33

Does it seem that the enemies of Jesus Christ have all been subjugated? Should be an obvious no if you look at the world today. Therefore Psalm 110 has not been fulfilled, and Jesus' second coming still awaits.

 

[Zao is life]

Psalm 110 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.". Take note of the word 'until.'

Jesus ascended to heaven and now sits at the right hand of the Father. Acts 7:55–56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 8:1; Hebrews 10:12; Hebrews 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22; Revelation 3:21; Matthew 22:44; Acts 2:33

Does it seem that the enemies of Jesus Christ have all been subjugated? Should be an obvious no if you look at the world today. Therefore Psalm 110 has not been fulfilled, and Jesus' second coming still awaits.

I believe you are in agreement with Jesus (John 18:36).

and the author of the Hebrews (Hebrews 2:8b):

Hebrews 2:8a You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.

Hebrews 2:8b But now [nun] we see not yet all things put under him.

Strongs Greek 3568 νῦν nu'n nun {noon}
a primary particle of present time; "now" (as adverb of date, a transition or emphasis); also as noun or adjective present or immediate:--henceforth, + hereafter, of late, soon, present, this (time).

Jesus: My kingdom is not of this world [kosmos]: if my kingdom were of this world [kosmos], then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now [nun] is my kingdom not from hence. -- John 18:36

The Revelation of Jesus Christ to His churches: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world [kosmos] are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The word kosmos does not speak merely of this Age [aeon] (although it obviously implies that too).

 

[IndianaRob]

Psalm 110 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.". Take note of the word 'until.'

Jesus ascended to heaven and now sits at the right hand of the Father. Acts 7:55–56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 8:1; Hebrews 10:12; Hebrews 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22; Revelation 3:21; Matthew 22:44; Acts 2:33

Does it seem that the enemies of Jesus Christ have all been subjugated? Should be an obvious no if you look at the world today. Therefore Psalm 110 has not been fulfilled, and Jesus' second coming still awaits.

Psalm 110 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.". Take note of the word 'until.'

Jesus ascended to heaven and now sits at the right hand of the Father. Acts 7:55–56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 8:1; Hebrews 10:12; Hebrews 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22; Revelation 3:21; Matthew 22:44; Acts 2:33

Does it seem that the enemies of Jesus Christ have all been subjugated? Should be an obvious no if you look at the world today. Therefore Psalm 110 has not been fulfilled, and Jesus' second coming still awaits.

It depends on how you see what’s going on in the world today. I see God in full control using the “Assyrian” to punish the wicked.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

 

[grafted branch]

It depends on how you see what’s going on in the world today. I see God in full control using the “Assyrian” to punish the wicked.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Yea, here’s another way of looking at it, if the enemies of Jesus Christ are not subjugated then they can thwart unfulfilled prophecies.

If someone were to say that a future Antichrist in Revelation 13:7 will overcome the saints because he has absolute power over all mankind, then that same Antichrist would be inclined not to fulfill that very prophecy, thus proving he has more power than Jesus Christ Himself.

Even futurists have to admit that the fact that events can be prophesied in the first place proves some form of subjugation.

 

[lforrest]

Yea, here’s another way of looking at it, if the enemies of Jesus Christ are not subjugated then they can thwart unfulfilled prophecies.

If someone were to say that a future Antichrist in Revelation 13:7 will overcome the saints because he has absolute power over all mankind, then that same Antichrist would be inclined not to fulfill that very prophecy, thus proving he has more power than Jesus Christ Himself.

Even futurists have to admit that the fact that events can be prophesied in the first place proves some form of subjugation.

People could try to thwart prophecies, if they properly interpret them. But in practice people don't actually understand because they would need the Holy Spirit to reveal it to them.

The little that the enemies of God can gather from scripture they use to try and hasten the coming of the kingdom of the Antichrist. Seen it many times with people trying to make something that will become the mark of the beast and they embed some satanic symbolism in the technology. Why they do this, it seems counter productive from a reasonable person as you argue. But evil spirits operate by the house divided against itself can not stand reasoning, making their motives intransigent. Or I suspect their motives, both evil spirits and Humans possessed by their ideals, are also self destructive.

 

[grafted branch]

But evil spirits operate by the house divided against itself can not stand reasoning, making their motives intransigent. Or I suspect their motives, both evil spirits and Humans possessed by their ideals, are also self destructive.

I agree with your assessment on evil spirits, I do think Satan can indeed cast out Satan.

People could try to thwart prophecies, if they properly interpret them.

I’m not so sure about this statement. Let’s look at Peter, he was told he would deny Jesus several hours before he made the denial. This prophecy made by Jesus was well understood but there was no possible way Peter could thwart it, no amount of will power could prevent the denial once it was prophesied.

Based on Peter’s denial, I would say it’s not possible to thwart prophecy whether it’s understood or not.

 

[lforrest]

But I don't think we are on the same page, Jesus said Satan can't cast out Satan so that is absolutely true.

If destruction is Satan's goal, destroying himself would literally be self defeating. But his human servants can be self destructive and die and it is all according to plan.

I’m not so sure about this statement. Let’s look at Peter, he was told he would deny Jesus several hours before he made the denial. This prophecy made by Jesus was well understood but there was no possible way Peter could thwart it, no amount of will power could prevent the denial once it was prophesied.

Based on Peter’s denial, I would say it’s not possible to thwart prophecy whether it’s understood or not.

I agree, doesn't stop people from trying in vain to stop prophecy.

 

[grafted branch]

But I don't think we are on the same page, Jesus said Satan can't cast out Satan so that is absolutely true.

If destruction is Satan's goal, destroying himself would literally be self defeating. But his human servants can be self destructive and die and it is all according to plan.



I agree, doesn't stop people from trying in vain to stop prophecy.

Well, yes, a person who is a false Christian may think they are casting out evil spirits in the name of the Lord when in actuality they are indeed casting out devils but they themselves are not of God, as seen in Matthew 7:22-23 “I never knew you”.

In Luke 10:18 Jesus said he saw Satan fall like lightning after the seventy returned. In Revelation 13:13 the second beast makes fire come down from heaven which deceives those who dwell on the earth. It seems to me that Satan casting out Satan would serve the purpose of deceiving. If Satan, transformed into an angel of light, casts out an untransformed Satan then he doesn’t defeat himself, he convinces people to believe in him.

 

[Timtofly]

In Jeremiah 3:14 the LORD says He is married to backsliding Israel, this points to the covenant made with Israel. If you want to say the covenant is the marriage contract and that is the relationship between God and Israel, I think that’s correct, I’m not arguing against that. But when you say there was no marriage to Israel then I have to disagree based on Jeremiah 3:14.

However that same old covenant analogy doesn’t work with the new covenant. The old covenant is bilateral while the new covenant is unilateral.


In Matthew 22:1-14 is the parable of the wedding banquet. The banquet is furnished with guests who are not the bride yet they have wedding garments. If we apply the analogy of “the marriage = the relationship between God and His people”, then the guests, who have wedding garments, don’t have a new covenant (marriage) relationship with the groom. The guests are not the bride as some people will try to insist on.

If we say the Matthew 22:1-14 marriage is pointing to Christ marrying His covenant, His unilateral covenant, then we can have guests at that wedding directly benefiting from the arrangement but they aren’t the bride itself.

Looking at Revelation 19:8, we can see that the bride is clothed in the righteousness of the saints. In Isaiah 64:6 all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, yet in Revelation 19:8 it’s described as clean and white. We don’t make ourselves ready or righteous, it’s only through His blood of the new covenant that this is possible. Again it’s unilateral, one sided, only the blood and not our actions, by grace, not works.

Revelation 19:9 says blessed are they which are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. This statement points us directly back to Matthew 22:1-14 where the guests are not the bride. I’m not overly dogmatic about the bride being the new covenant but it seems to fit with the wedding parables. When we say the church is the bride, that’s when you run into all sorts of trouble, you essentially say the new covenant is bilateral not unilateral.


That makes more sense than the new covenant church being the bride but you have the problem of Jeremiah 3:14 already stating that the LORD was married to backsliding Israel. Do you suppose God gets divorced from Israel then gets married to her again or do you see it some other way?

The relationship with Israel and her Messiah the Prince is restored at the Second Coming. That was the promise of Daniel 9. The relationship is literal and real. The marriage analogy is symbolic.

The church in Paradise is not that much relevant to life on earth, nor ever has been.

"How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

2 Corinthians 12:4

What is Paul saying here?

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

2 Corinthians 2:9

Is life so much different in Paradise, that it is off limits to those on the earth? The New Covenant allowed Israel into Paradise at the Cross, but not in a marriage relationship. The church of the last 2 millennia is now together in Paradise with Israel, and neither are in a marriage relationship, with Christ.

The view of Jesus on earth for a thousand years, means that Jesus is also now separated from those in Paradise, without a relationship still. The Millennial reign is that relationship with Jesus on earth with Israel for a thousand years, "God with us" so to speak per the OT promises. That is the symbolic marriage on the earth. Then after Jesus hands creation back to God, Paradise/New Jerusalem and God comes to earth where Jesus is. God, Himself resides in the New Jerusalem on the earth.

How that works, John tries to explain in Revelation 21. One can choose to think literally or symbolically making up their own interpretations, other than what John actually wrote. Those in Paradise are not symbolically married nor have a relationship until the New Jerusalem comes to earth.


Having said that, many want that relationship in the here and now, sin infested world. I just don't see that as a viable, nor a plausible reality. The majority of the church, are not even on the earth any more. They are in Paradise.

There is an individual relationship with God ongoing, without the need of a third party religious system. Also God still came once a year to the Holy of Holies until the Temple veil was torn by God, declaring that relationship over. Those are real relationships beside one on a corporate level. God never abandoned His people. His people abandoned God for their own selfish reasons. The symbolism of playing the harlot. Israel was divorced when the ten northern tribes were dispersed by Assyria. But God still had a relationship with the remnant at all times.

As I explained, the marriage part is mere symbolism, but how can those living at the Second Coming still be considered the Israel of 7th and 8th century BC? That is not a marriage to the same divorced people, except on the symbolic level. That old Israel is not coming back for a second marriage. The church you call spiritual Israel is not even part of the future Israel's relationship as I pointed out. The church is not even currently married to the "Trinity". In some references the church is the body of Christ, and in others the bride of Christ. All symbolic.

 

[grafted branch]

The Millennial reign is that relationship with Jesus on earth with Israel for a thousand years, "God with us" so to speak per the OT promises. That is the symbolic marriage on the earth. Then after Jesus hands creation back to God, Paradise/New Jerusalem and God comes to earth where Jesus is. God, Himself resides in the New Jerusalem on the earth.

2 Peter 3:10 the heavens pass away and the earth burns with fervent heat. I’m assuming you place this event after the millennium, if not, can you explain why not?

2 Peter 3:11 what manner of person ought you to be. Since you have our current relationship with Jesus changing in the millennium, 2 Peter 3:11 must be referring to the millennium Jews, right? And what kind of person they ought to be during the millennium, before the heavens dissolve and the elements melt in verse 12, right?

2 Peter 3:15 even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you. Where does Paul describe this future millennium relationship Jesus will have with the Jews?

 

[Timtofly]

2 Peter 3:10 the heavens pass away and the earth burns with fervent heat. I’m assuming you place this event after the millennium, if not, can you explain why not?

2 Peter 3:11 what manner of person ought you to be. Since you have our current relationship with Jesus changing in the millennium, 2 Peter 3:11 must be referring to the millennium Jews, right? And what kind of person they ought to be during the millennium, before the heavens dissolve and the elements melt in verse 12, right?

2 Peter 3:15 even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you. Where does Paul describe this future millennium relationship Jesus will have with the Jews?

"in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

Do you think God is going to destroy all those in the heavens including the angels along with the earth and all on the earth?

So you say nothing and no one is left alive, any where? How does that work out in your total annihilation of everything?

Here is why this is not after the Millennium. You have everything gone, so why would it matter. I don't see all of creation being wiped out of existence, like you do.

In fact Paul said Jesus hands back to God a perfect and complete creation, not one that stopped existing a few seconds ago.

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

One has to reconcile all Scripture. Jesus is not going to burn Himself up along with creation as many indicate has to be the end, with everything consumed by fire, including Jesus Himself.

So what is burned up and destroyed the same both in the heavens and on earth at the Second Coming? All the works of man and all that is related to sin and death, and the punishment placed on creation when Adam disobeyed God.

Here is what John the Baptist pointed out:

"He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

2 Peter 3 is referring to the Second Coming at the start of the Day of the Lord, the Millennial Kingdom. Will all be gone within creation? No. In fact all those stars will have left the heavens and are now on the earth, because they are the angels, and that is their job to be the lights in the firmament.

From the perspective of the earth, would that change from the angels being stars to now gathering humans as mentioned several places, not seem like the heavens are dissolved and rolled back like a scroll? The angels are not burned up. They are given a new assignment. Humans are not burned up. They are waiting for their judgment. Not even those things created by God are destroyed with human works. The trees and grass are burned up at a later time.


So when you declare a literal fire from creation itself is what Peter is talking about, that would be an erroneous assumption. This is God's consuming fire that baptizes heaven and earth and removes those things that man has worked so hard to accomplish in their sin and misery.

This fire is one of the several things that will make this period of time the greatest trouble ever. The Flood was more merciful and the destruction was swift. The Second Coming will bring years of tribulation to the earth. The Amil view declares all over in an instant, even faster than the Flood. That day will be a rude awakening for many, who thought it would end faster than it began.

The Day of the Lord, will be a new heavens and earth. We are not told that the stars will shine again. I think those in Paradise will shine like the stars after the Second Coming, but I don't know how that will affect those on the earth. The Day of the Lord is the restoration back to how life was before Adam disobeyed God. That is why there is not a new creation from scratch, until after Jesus has restored all things, and defeated death as the last enemy. Nothing is going to be destroyed at the end. All that is consumed by fire are those who listened to Satan, and none of their remains will be seen on earth, when Jesus hands creation back to God made alive.

That is why 2 Peter 3:10 cannot be the last act of this creation. But the heavens and earth will be new, after the baptism of fire, just like after the Flood when Noah stepped out of the ark, all things were new. But the thousand year countdown cannot start until all of humanity is accounted for. Waiting for the millennium to get things right, or waiting during the millennium to get things right is not what Peter was saying at all.

Only God can redeem a person. But only those of Jacob will be judged according to their works at the time of the Second Coming. Dead people are not resurrected and judged prior to the Millennium. All are supposed to be prepared with the second birth, if they do not want to be "the dead" waiting in death until the end of the millennium. God does not name those who will be redeemed post the Second Coming in Scripture. Else every one else would be prepared, no?

Yes the relationship changes in the Millennium. For one, no one has sin nor even a body of death. As pointed out, it will be earth restored prior to Adam's disobedience. Each individual answers only for themselves. If one is disobedient in any way, they are removed, they do not plunge the entire creation into sin like Adam did. No one seems to comprehend what living without sin is like. That does not mean they can disobey and get away with that disobedience. It also implies no one has any inclination to disobey. They have every thing geared towards everlasting righteousness. The exact opposite of a sin nature and our flesh, which abhors righteousness.

People seem to think Jesus will be a tyrant or dictator forcing people to do right. NO!! If Jesus was a dictator, He would be forcing people to sin and break the law, the opposite of their natural disposition. Dictators force people against their will. No one will think about doing wrong, because that would make them cursed from society and not part of society.

The church is not even on the earth during the Day of the Lord. There will be no need for churches as there will be no need for establishments that cater to wickedness. There will be no wickedness nor wicked people. The first act of disobedience, is immediate death. God won't ask for a reason, nor will any one else for that matter. Life will be the total opposite of what it is under the bondage of sin.