Heavenly Jerusalem
- Thread starter IndianaRob
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I tend to think the New Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem which is synonymous with the new covenant. I think the generation of those who were under the old covenant prior to the cross clung to it for the most part after the cross. As it says in Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightawaydesireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
In Acts 15:28-29 it seemed good to the Holy Spirit to have different burdens for Jew and Gentile. The new covenant and its liberty from the law was not fully realized by the Jews (with some exceptions like Paul) prior to 70AD, so I would say the term heavenly Jerusalem vs physical earthly Jerusalem was a depiction of this.
The Jews were still observing at least some of the old covenant earthly things which were a pattern of heavenly things, so for them New Jerusalem had not descended yet. They did come to the heavenly Jerusalem by believing in the Messiah, Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24) but continuing in the old covenant ways, saying the old wine is better, meant the heavenly Jerusalem was still in heaven, not on earth for them.
After 70 AD the New Jerusalem descended as the old covenant could no longer be physically observed by the destruction of physical Jerusalem.
According to Galatians 2:9 James, Peter, and John went to the circumcision while Paul and Barnabas to the Gentiles. The book of Revelation was written by John to the Jews, which shows New Jerusalem coming down in Revelation 21. The Gentiles which were never part of the old covenant or earthly Jerusalem were able to immediately say the new wine was good, having never tasted the old, for them the new covenant/New Jerusalem was on earth, spiritually speaking.
I pretty much agree with you Grafted Branch but I believe heavenly Jerusalem came down when Jesus came or at least when began to teach.
I think that’s what’s being taught in Matthew 12:47.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Good point, I wouldn’t argue against it.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Do you think Jesus having the power to forgive sins prior to the cross, as seen in Matthew 9:6, fits with the timing of New Jerusalem being on earth?
If so, what are your thoughts on the daily sacrifice being taken away? From Revelation 21:22 the Lord God and Lamb are the temple in New Jerusalem, and since Jesus is the one time sacrifice, there are no daily sacrifices happening in New Jerusalem.
Did the daily sacrifice cease when New Jerusalem came down, at least in a spiritual sense?
It's the church the bride of the Lamb
Revelation 20:2
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
9-10
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God
It's showing that the church up in heaven will one day finally be united on the earth in the new world.
Hey Marty, I’m very skeptical of the bride being the church. Paul says we are the body of Christ but he doesn’t use the term bride.
In Jeremiah 3:14 God is married to backsliding Israel and in Isaiah 62:4 it says thy land shall be married. I would say New Jerusalem (a city) is tied to the land being married.
There is also the problem of the wife making herself ready in Revelation 19:7. The church doesn’t make herself ready, Christ makes the church ready, we are not saved by works but by the grace of God.
Then how does land make itself ready?
Yes we are saved by grace not works but we do have an responsibility in that. Jesus did warn us to watch and be ready.
Well, the land makes itself ready in the same sense a city makes itself ready. The promised land was ready after the generation that initially rejected entering into that promised land died in the wilderness, 40 years. I think also the new covenant was fully entered into once the old covenant generation died in the 70 AD destruction, 40 years after the cross.
The big difference was that those who initially rejected the promised land back in Exodus were with out hope of entering into it. Those old covenant folks after the cross had the days shortened so they were able to enter the new covenant even while clinging to the old covenant. That period of grace ended when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. That’s when the final choice was made to hold onto the old covenant Jerusalem or flee and fully embrace the new covenant.
The old covenant folks who watched did make themselves ready to flee when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies but I personally don’t think they are what’s in view when the term New Jerusalem is used.
If we are living in it now, how does one explain this part---for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea? (Revelation 21:1) I'm not certain what 'sea' means in this context, all I know is, the text indicates there was no more sea. Which then means one needs to provide a convincing answer for this if they are insisting this applies to the here and now.
Luke 12:36And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
The church does wait and needs to be ready but it’s for the Lord when He returns from the wedding, not to the wedding.
In the verses below its the bride who is given the white linen to wear and the following verses shows who wears the white linen.
Revelation 18
6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:
“Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
Revelation 6
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.
Revelation 7
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 19
14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
All believers are saved by the new covenant, blood of the Lamb, which is depicted as white robs. Just because someone has a white rob doesn’t mean they are the bride.
In Matthew 22:1-14 is the parable of the wedding banquet. The banquet is furnished with guests who are not the bride yet they have wedding garments. And from Luke 12:36 there are people who wait for the Lord to return from the wedding.
So we can conclude there are at least three groups of people (if we consider the bride a group of people), the bride, the guests at the banquet, and those who are waiting for the Lord to return from the wedding. If the wedding happened in 70 AD we can have all these groups harmonize through out time. If we say the wedding takes place at the end of our current age then issues arise.
Also there is Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. If the marriage of the Lamb takes place before the old covenant age ends then this verse makes sense. There has to be some saved people who are not given in marriage, they are not the bride.
Good point, yes I think that’s an indicator that heavenly Jerusalem was here at that time.
According tho Daniel 9:27 Jesus caused the daily sacrifice to cease during the week.
Sorry for the delay, yesterday was a hectic day.
From what I can gather from the Bible the new heaven and the new earth come at the same time.
The old heaven was Abraham’s (paradise), the new heaven is where we go today. That’s all I need to know to get the timing of Revelation 21.
If the old heaven (Abraham’s bosom) went away with the resurrection of Jesus and the new heaven came with the resurrection of Jesus then the timing of Revelation 21 was the resurrection.
Yet there is a crystal clear clue that tells us the timing.
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Unless the timing of the NHNE is meaning after the vials of wrath, no way would or could one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, be the one telling John some of these things. Look what the text says---one of the seven angels which had---as in past tense at this point. Which undeniably proves the NHNE are AFTER the vials of wrath, not prior to them. Now all you have to do is prove that the seven last vials of wrath preceded the resurrection if you expect some of the rest of us to take your proposed timing of this seriously.
I suspect you will likely ignore this clue in Revelation 21:9 altogether and keep on insisting you already have the timing of these things correct. After all, some people simply can't admit they are ever wrong about things, and that you might be such a person as that for all I know. If you are, you have plenty of company around here.
I don’t ignore the clue I just see it as past where you see it as future.
Do you agree that Isaiah 65:18 is telling us that Heavenly Jerusalem is the new heavens and new earth?
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Just read the text in Rev. 21. The former "heaven and earth" are destroyed before the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven. * To be more precise, there are 3 heavens: 1. Our atmosphere; 2. the universe; 3. THE SPIRITUALHEAVEN where God dwells.
2 Peter 3:10 describes a catastrophic event that burns up thenphysicak realm we live in - everything is destroyed, even the universe.
Dimensions are given of this New Jerusalem, app 1380 miles cubed.
Of course a city is nothing without people. The reference to the Bride of Christ is stated. Billions of Christians saved from all time. Likely as many people have died as there are currently alive since Abraham. So we can guess that number of Christians to be 1/3 of the total number of humans as we see today, 2.7+ billion Christians of 8.2 billion. So the New Jerusalem would be comprised of over 5 billion resurrected souls, the Bride, who will live eternally in this New Jerusalem.
Let's consider the dimensions given - much smaller than earth.
The rest of this is just conjecture.
If we do the math based on the dimensions given with a horizontal perspective, that's barley 2 million square miles, which would be crowded at 2500+ people per square mi. Every person would get a 1/4 acre. Wait a minute, you can't put a mansion on that! These dimensions do not describe a normal horizontal, folks living on the ground reality. There is an equal vertical dimension suggesting that there could be hundreds of levels, each having miles of height until the next. It would be like a high rise building with a hundred floors , only these are multiple living dimensions.
Imagine a setting like Yosemite, where you have rivers, waterfalls, mountains, valleys and the sky for miles above you. Now imagine another dimension 5 miles up that is another celestial setting and than another on top of that, hundreds. (This is not crazy thinking, a vertical dimension is given and it's not just a for a 1400 mile sky of empty space!)
So it's not a 1/4 acre/pp, it's more like a hundred acres per person, with a mansion on each property with whatever environment that you favor.
Now, having the extra-dimensional abilities like the angels and Jesus had to ascend and descend, fly or beam ourselves instantly to any location with our new resurrected eternal bodies_ appearing and disappearing _ will be out of this world - awesome. No need for sun or moon or stars. No more nights. Light comes from the Lord who illuminates this reality.
So, back to our current reality, the first earth. The Great Tribulation will soon come, lasting 3 1/2 years, Jesus returns and ushers in 1000 year kingdom. He will transform this current earth into a paradise. Then after that it is destroyed. Why, if it is so beautiful. Because sin, though not as prevalent, still exists during the Millenial Kingdom..towards the end of it, Satan is released for one last attempt to lure people ( who have been born during this time) into temptation and reblliousness against God. And so the final Judment Day comes. Everyone who has not been saved from all time ( held temporarily in Hades) is now throw into the Lake of Fire and destroyed ( they come to their end). This Lake consumes Hades and Death itself AND the first heaven and earth as well. THEN the New Jerusalem comes down, a new earth _ as it is in heaven, a heaven on earth.
The marriage took please in 70AD the many Jews invited didn't come so God invited the gentiles and also gave them garments of righteous
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