He doesn't lead us blindly

[Karl Peters]

People asked Jesus questions which are answered in the gospels, so why should we pester him further?..:)
Anyway at 74 years old I'm no longer on a "path" of seeking knowledge-
"..as a Christian, thank God you bear that name....that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured" (1 Peter 4:16, Col 4:12)
Check out this sensational vid of me under my strategy-gaming name 'PoorOldSpike', play it fullscreen for maximum dramatic effect and note my superbly confident body language-

jN 5:38-41“You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
ou search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
“I do not receive glory from men;"

There were a people who Jesus came to who did not have the word abiding in them. Instead, they search the Scriptures thinking that would give them eternal life. For that reason, they did not come to Him, and they failed to understand that He does not receive glory from men!!

They read the writings, but they did not actually believe the writings which explained that the word of God we preach is near us, even when out Bible is not! They did not understand that Jesus Christ is the word of God we preach, meaning we can hear from Him. If they had just believed the writings of Moses who explained that He was always with them to be heard form, they would have turned to Him and listen to Him. They would have asked Him questions which He would answer for them. But how will they turn to Him if since they didn't believe the writings of Moses??

Jn 5:46,47 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Deut 30:14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

It is sad to hear that you are no longer on the path of seeking knowledge!! What path are you on then??

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

What is a mere 74 years to an eternity of listening to what comes from His mouth? You have no idea of how sad you're not seeking knowledge is even for me to hear.

I was talking to the Lord just yesterday and He was telling me about how people are not open to Him and what He has for them. He first pointed out a Chrisian healing ministry He had me doing for five years. In that ministry, though it was even called a healing ministry, many if not most people who came in with pain did not come in to ask for healing, but for other things like relationship, His plans for them, for other people they knew, etc. So I would talk to the Lord asking Him how I should go about ministering to them. So often He would tell me that the person in front of me had a physical problem that need prayer, like a bad shoulder, knee, stomach, and so on. So I would ask them if their ... stomach was ok, to them be told my then that they were in pain. I would ask them on a scale of 1 -10 what the pain level was? and they would surprise me by saying it really hurt like a 8-10 level. So, we would pray for them and virtually all the time they left in little or no pain at all. It has not occurred to them that He really might heal them, even enough to ask!

After that the Lord told me that in the same way people are often not opened to actually receiving eternal life from Him. Perhaps you don't fully understand but having eternal life from Him means having eternal life with Him!! He is going to keep giving us knowledge and we are going to keep learning, and learning, and learning. Did you not even read that Jesus Himself, though in the beginning with God and God, still learned obedience at the cross? So no longer on the path of seeking knowledge is not a path with Him for eternity!!

I am not so much younger than you, being 65, but I look forward to knowing Him better and thus learning more from Him. He says such interesting things!!

When I wrote:

AS INSTRUCTIONS ARE GIVEN TO A SERVANT, AND WISDOM AND PARABLES TO A SON, AND AS JOKES ARE GIVEN TO A FRIEND, SO I LOVE YOU IS SAID TO A BRIDE.

I mean we will get wisdom, parables, jokes, and told "I love you", for all eternity, because we will spend eternity with Him!! At least we will if we are on the right path!! It is a path that causes us to seek Him everyday called "Today"

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Do you even realize that you argued for two different things??????

First you correctly state that God today speaks to us through His Son, Jesus Christ. That is absolute correct!! So very right your were, but "were" being the important word. You did get the right message but got lost!

Because then you tend state "Their are those who go beyond what is written." Of course there are. Did you not read that if all had been written down then perhaps the whole world could not contain it, and that just about what Jesus did in the flesh!! The problem is that you don't actually do what the Bible tells you to do - which is seek the Lord Jesus Christ and listen to Him. By what you write it is clear that you are depending on you the Scriptures (the Scared writings) to save you!! Jesus delt with people like that!

Jesus told the Jews - Jn 5:38-40 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. “[fn]You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Look close at what Jesus said!! They did not have the word abiding in them!!!! The Bible does not abide in you!! The Holy Spirit should be abiding in you!! If so then you hear the word in you - in your heart and sometimes coming out your mouth!! And that is the Word of God we are preachng - not the ordering lines on lines written down that we study a little here and there. In fact God through Isaiah explained that if you did not listen to Him then the word to you would be "Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there,”

Did you not read the Bible? Do you not even believe that what was written down was correct?? Because if you did, then you would seek the voice of the Lord which is found in our hearts and coming out our mouths, because the word of God comes from the Holy Spirit indwelling us!!

Is 28: 12,13 He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen.
So the word of the LORD to them will be,
“Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there,”
That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

Mat 17: 5 “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

Is 1:2 Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth;
For the LORD speaks,
“Sons I have reared and brought up,
But they have revolted against Me.

Yeah - the Lord spoke to them through the prophets of Old, yet see that the prophets of Old were telling them even then to listen tothe Lord and get to know Him!!!

They did do it, even years later after having the Sacred writings of those like Moses and Isaiah, they still had not decided to seek the voice of the Lord - but instead they depended on their own understanding of the Scriptures and put their faith in them instead of Jesus Christ. Don't be like that!! Seek Jesus Chirst and what He personally has to say to you!! He does indeed stand at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice (which is not the Scriptures, those are writings He has people who did hear from Him wrote) and opens the door of Him to come into them, He will come into them and eat with them and them with Him!! I personally testify to the truth of that!!

I do hear often, and it amazes me that people will not actually seek Him and what He has to say to them personally!!

So you might understanding that it is about hearing Him I will give you some things He personally has said to me - they fit perfectly with what the prophets of Old were saying - in that we need to get to know Him and we do that by listening to Him, because the Lord speaks!!!! I hope you like these bits of wisdom that He gave me. Know that He has wisdom for you too if you really listen to Him!

THESE BITS OF WISDOM ARE LIKE DROPS OF WATER. I WILL SURELY GIVE YOU A POND FULL.

WE HEAR WISDOM, BUT IS IT THE HEARING OR THE ACTING UPON IT THAT MAKES A MAN WISE?

YOU DIDN’T MAKE ME AN AWESOME GOD, BUT YOU CAN MAKE ME AN AWESOME GOD.

AS INSTRUCTIONS ARE GIVEN TO A SERVANT, AND WISDOM AND PARABLES TO A SON, AND AS JOKES ARE GIVEN TO A FRIEND, SO I LOVE YOU IS SAID TO A BRIDE.

WHAT TEACHER DOESN’T PUT A BOOK IN FRONT OF HIS STUDENTS TODAY; YET NOT JUST A BOOK BUT OVERHEAD TRANSPARENCIES, VISUALS, AND OTHER MATERIAL? FOR I TELL YOU TRULY, IF THEY ARE NOT LISTENING TO ME THEY ARE NOT MY PUPIL, THEY ARE NOT MY STUDENT; I TELL YOU TRULY, THEY ARE NOT MY DISCIPLE UNLESS THEY ARE HEARING FROM ME. SO DON’T TELL THEM TO READ THE BOOK, THEM TO TAKE THE CLASS!”

WHEN WE TALK TO GOD, GOD TALKS TO US……. WHEN WE LISTEN TO GOD, GOD LISTENS TO US!

THE BEST LISTENERS MAKE THE BEST TEACHERS.

SHOULDN’T YOU HEAR FROM A MAN YOU’RE JUDGING WORTHY OF DEATH AND EXAMINE WHETHER THERE IS TRUTH IN WHAT HE SAYS. SO IT IS THAT I HAVE MADE HEARING FROM ME THE VERY THINGS THAT GIVES YOU ETERNAL LIFE. (Note that faith comes from hearing a word from Him - Rom 10)

IT'S NOT EASY LISTENING TO A ROCK. YOU HAVE TO LISTEN VERY CLOSE!

TWO MEN WERE WALKING DOWN THE ROAD, ONE TRIPED OVER SOMETHING HE DIDN’T SEE, THE OTHER DIDN’T BECAUSE HE WAS PAYING ATTENTION. (Jesus can be a stumbling stone to some, so pay attention)

WE DON’T HAVE UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE WE DON’T READ THE BIBLE WITH UNDERSTANDING, BUT OUR UNDERSTANDING…. UNDERSTAND??? (Understanding is a name for the Lord - in Proverbs we are told to make Understanding our friend)

THE SCRIPTURES ARE RIGHT, BUT THEY ARE NOT RIGHTEOUS. THEY HAVE NO ABILITY TO ACT. THEY ARE NOT ALIVE, BUT THE WORD OF GOD IS ALIVE AND ACTIVE. (People - Jesus rose from the dead, and His name is called The Word of God, Rev 19-13)

WE DON’T USE THE LORD TO PREACH THE SCRIPTURES; WE USE THE SCRIPTURES TO PREACH THE LORD!!
(And this is your problem - you are using the Scriptures to preach the Scriptures instead of using them to preach our Lord Jesus Christ)

Yeah I have heard too many people say they have the Holy Spirit abiding in them.
Too many go beyond what's written. They want people to blindly follow what they say.

 

[Dropship]

.It s sad to hear that you are no longer on the path of seeking knowledge!! What path are you on then??..

It's sad to hear that you're still on a path, good luck with that..:)
Jesus can easily be found in a simple gospel like this one, the path ended for me (and for many others) when we knocked on his door and he said "Come on in, the kettle's on"..:)

 

[robert derrick]

So here is how our conscience is helpful, but only to get us to seek Him!! That is to say; If we get our conscience telling us that something doesn't seem right, we then turn to Jesus Christ and ask Him about it.

Now, you're teaching the truth. First we clear up any conscience problem, through knowledge of the truth, before doing anything we believe anyone is telling us to do. That includes the spirit and voice within.

Acting against our pure conscience, in order to do what we think is the voice of the Lord, is not wise, but foolish.

Saying we do what we believe to do, whether we think it is right or wrong, is not Scripture, since conscience and faith are never separate from one another. Otherwise, we eat and are dammed without faith while defiling the conscience.

 

[robert derrick]

The old man doesn't know God, but person born again hears the Holy Spirit, so the new man born of the Spirit is not depending on his conscience and thus his understanding of what it right or wrong, but instead the Born Again Christian listens to the Lord Jesus Christ, and they know that His thoughts are not our thoughts!! As high as the heaven are above the earth so are His thoughts above our thoughts!! If you listened to Him, you would know that 'His thoughts are not our thoughts!!! It is the first thing you find out about Him!!! He is just a whole lot smarter that we are!!! And anyone who listened Him found that out really quick!!!!!! You just can't get to know Him and not instantly realize that He is God and you are not!!!

Here is the source of your error: You are defining our conscience as our learned moral understanding:

And so, you are suggesting that our conscience and understanding can be rightly changed by spiritual voice alone.

This is destructive in two ways:

1. It changes the conscience from pure to defiled, and knowledge from ignorant to enlightened, by obeying the voice of a spirit alone.

2. It does not require truth of written Scripture to judge the spirit.

Are you saying, that our pure conscience is ever changed for the better, by overriding it as is, and letting it be changed by spiritual voice alone?

If so, then your doctrine is manifestly destructive to a pure conscience.

Scripture is plain: let the conscience remain pure, even in weakness of knowledge, and let every spirit be proven by doctrine of Christ in Scripture.

Teaching to hear the voice of the Lord within is good, but it is destructive to faith, if we must defile our pure conscience to do so.

We do not let our conscience be changed by what we hear from man or spirit, but only by what we learn from Scripture alone.

Otherwise, we are entering into the theology of spiritism, where conscience may be set aside in order to grow spiritually.

And not only may, but must be at times defiled, in order not to remain unlearned and babyish, by not doing what a spirit says to do.

So long as we confirm the spirits by truth of Scripture, then our pure conscience remains free from defilement, by doing the truth alone.

 

[Karl Peters]

Yeah I have heard too many people say they have the Holy Spirit abiding in them.
Too many go beyond what's written. They want people to blindly follow what they say.

Telling people to follow Jesus Christ, via His words that the Holy Spirit abiding in them is telling them, is not - IS NOT - asking people to follw themselves but Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit!!

So what you say does not make sense!!

What you are saying it that the Holy Spirit only ever said what is written in our Bible - and that is not the Holy Spirit abiding in us!!

So on one hand you try to say the Holy Spirit abides in you, and on the other hand you prove that He is not abiding in you!! Instead, you are saying that He only abided in the authors who wrote the Scriptures!! And that is completely opposite of what is written in the Bible!!

It is just silly - saying we have the Holy Spirit in us - but that the Holy Spirit never speaks to us, but every word He ever said is already written down in the Scriptures!! Honestly, I don't know whether to laugh at the poor logic or cry and the lack of awareness of the Holy Spirit?

So let me remind you what Paul wrote:

Rom 10: 6 - 8 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

Do you not even see the "faith speaks" part??? You say He spoke, and it is all written down, but what is written is that by faith we hear Him speak!!!!

Gal 3: 1,2 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

It is just amazing, - I try to get people to listen to our Lord Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit and they think I am blindly trying to get them to follow me. It just proves they don't follow Him by listening to His voice! They say things like the Scriptures are His voice, where as Paul wrote:

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up [everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Which is why Jesus told people like them:

Jn 5: 37-41 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. “I do not receive glory from men;

Still - there is good news if anyone is willing to accept it!

Rev 3:19,20 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

It reads "if anyone", meaning even those people who have been searching the Scriptures because they don't have His word abiding in them, but instead think the sacred writings are all the Holy Spirit ever said. Reproof is sent to them so that they might repent and opne up to Him and His voice.

So there is good news, even to them who over and over refuse to listen to what He says!

People - none of you have to listen to me! I certainly am glade I have not been given to try and lead any of you. Still, I have been given the instructions from Jesus Christ who is the Word of God to tell people to listen to Him, because He is the Word of God, and He is alive and active!!

So you don't have to listen to Me, but you do have to listen to Him if you ever want to get into heaven!!! That is what I say, but not me alone. All those writing the Scriptures were also trying to tell you that, but a stubborn people will not listen to Him!! They have to repent first!

Deut 9:13 “The LORD spoke further to me, saying, ‘I have seen this people, and indeed, it is a [stubborn people.

Deut 9:16“But they, our fathers, acted arrogantly; They became stubborn and would not listen to Your commandments.

Notice that it is not written "read your commandments" but rather listen you your commandments!

Is 48:12 “Listen to Me, you stubborn-minded, Who are far from righteousness.

So don't pay attention to my writings - believe what Isaiah wrote to God's people and listen to the Lord!! I am not suggesting any other thing!!

Jn 5: 46,47 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Indeed, if you had believed the sacred writings, written by people who did listen to the Lord so that they wanted you to also listen to the Lord, then you would already know that the Lord speaks and is not dead or in a far off place called heaven! So that you would already know that He speaks to those willing to open up to them today! And so He opens the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf! And I would not have to be writing to a stubborn people who will not listen to the Lord!!

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen To the instruction of the LORD;

Is 30:10 Who say to the seers, “You must not see visions”; And to the prophets, “You must not prophesy to us what is right,
Speak to us pleasant words, Prophesy illusions.

Is 30:11 “Get out of the way, turn aside from the path, Let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.”

Is 30:12 Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel, “Since you have rejected this word And have put your trust in oppression and guile, and have relied on them,

There is a saying we all know that goes - If the shoe fits

Does it? Does what is actually written in the Scriptures apply?

Those who wrote the Bible were always trying to get people to listen to our Lord!! There is nothing new under the sun. So now what?

Is 30:13 Therefore this iniquity will be to you Like a breach about to fall,
A bulge in a high wall, Whose collapse comes suddenly in an instant,

Is 30:14 Whose collapse is like the smashing of a potter’s jar, So ruthlessly shattered
That a sherd will not be found among its pieces To take fire from a hearth
Or to scoop water from a cistern.”

Enough was indeed written so that we should not need anyone like me telling others to listen to Him, but if a person says that all He said was only that spoken to those like Isaiah, so that it is all written down, they prove they didn't believe those like Moses and Isaiah told them about listening to the Lord! So how indeed will they believe His words since they didn't believe the writings?? Yes, their collapse will be like the smashing of a potter's jar, but the Lord still sends people to try and give them hope and turn them to Him - still they scoff!

 

[Karl Peters]

Here is the source of your error: You are defining our conscience as our learned moral understanding:

And so, you are suggesting that our conscience and understanding can be rightly changed by spiritual voice alone.

This is destructive in two ways:

1. It changes the conscience from pure to defiled, and knowledge from ignorant to enlightened, by obeying the voice of a spirit alone.

2. It does not require truth of written Scripture to judge the spirit.

Are you saying, that our pure conscience is ever changed for the better, by overriding it as is, and letting it be changed by spiritual voice alone?

If so, then your doctrine is manifestly destructive to a pure conscience.

Scripture is plain: let the conscience remain pure, even in weakness of knowledge, and let every spirit be proven by doctrine of Christ in Scripture.

Teaching to hear the voice of the Lord within is good, but it is destructive to faith, if we must defile our pure conscience to do so.

We do not let our conscience be changed by what we hear from man or spirit, but only by what we learn from Scripture alone.

Otherwise, we are entering into the theology of spiritism, where conscience may be set aside in order to grow spiritually.

And not only may, but must be at times defiled, in order not to remain unlearned and babyish, by not doing what a spirit says to do.

So long as we confirm the spirits by truth of Scripture, then our pure conscience remains free from defilement, by doing the truth alone.

That is not my error - it is your failure to understand!

The Lord told me the other day to give you an example from C. S Lewis. He actually uses his example to prove that God exists but it also shows our conscience verse the Lord truth.

C. S Lewis starts off Mere Christianity with chapter 1 with the title "The Law of Human Nature" in which we find two men discussing what it right and what is not right. Both men have and idea that there is "some kind of Law or Rule of faith play of decent behavior or morality or whatever you like to call it, about which they really agreed." Still, we find that the two men "Quarrelling" and to show that the other man is in the wrong.

Now C S Lewis uses this to show that inside both men must be aware that there is some Truth, or God, thereby proving God exists. Yet this also proves that we have each of us our conscience, which is our personal moral belief that is not the same belief about the Truth, but is not the Truth/God!! It also shows that we are influence and indeed believe we can influence (teach) others and affect their conscience!!

Indeed - this forum is usually more about influencing that other person's beliefs about what is right (their conscience) than actually leading them to listen to the Truth (Jesus Christ)

Our conscience, which is our moral belief in what is right and wrong, can and is influenced by others! We even know that, which is shown by our actions - those quarrels we have about what is right or wrong with others.

Still our conscience, as point out already, is not good!! And it is not God/the Truth!! And only God is good!! Just like is explained in the Bible!! So, listening to our conscience is not the same as listening to God!!

Yes, people who do not listen to God have a conscience and that is a better part of them, but it is still learned and influenced by others. Indeed, my conscience tells me that I need to stop leaning on my understanding so much, which is hard for me to do. Even my conscience now tries to get me to listen to the Lord, but it never did before the Lord came into my life and by His Holy Spirit speaking to me, He influenced me by His teachings to me!!

I learn things. That is the nature of men. God uses that, and so do we. It affects our moral understanding, which we like to quarrel over. That proves God exists, just like C S Lewis writes.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Telling people to follow Jesus Christ, via His words that the Holy Spirit abiding in them is telling them, is not - IS NOT - asking people to follw themselves but Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit!!

So what you say does not make sense!!

What you are saying it that the Holy Spirit only ever said what is written in our Bible - and that is not the Holy Spirit abiding in us!!

So on one hand you try to say the Holy Spirit abides in you, and on the other hand you prove that He is not abiding in you!! Instead, you are saying that He only abided in the authors who wrote the Scriptures!! And that is completely opposite of what is written in the Bible!!

It is just silly - saying we have the Holy Spirit in us - but that the Holy Spirit never speaks to us, but every word He ever said is already written down in the Scriptures!! Honestly, I don't know whether to laugh at the poor logic or cry and the lack of awareness of the Holy Spirit?

So let me remind you what Paul wrote:

Rom 10: 6 - 8 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

Do you not even see the "faith speaks" part??? You say He spoke, and it is all written down, but what is written is that by faith we hear Him speak!!!!

Gal 3: 1,2 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

It is just amazing, - I try to get people to listen to our Lord Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit and they think I am blindly trying to get them to follow me. It just proves they don't follow Him by listening to His voice! They say things like the Scriptures are His voice, where as Paul wrote:

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up [everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Which is why Jesus told people like them:

Jn 5: 37-41 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. “I do not receive glory from men;

Still - there is good news if anyone is willing to accept it!

Rev 3:19,20 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

It reads "if anyone", meaning even those people who have been searching the Scriptures because they don't have His word abiding in them, but instead think the sacred writings are all the Holy Spirit ever said. Reproof is sent to them so that they might repent and opne up to Him and His voice.

So there is good news, even to them who over and over refuse to listen to what He says!

People - none of you have to listen to me! I certainly am glade I have not been given to try and lead any of you. Still, I have been given the instructions from Jesus Christ who is the Word of God to tell people to listen to Him, because He is the Word of God, and He is alive and active!!

So you don't have to listen to Me, but you do have to listen to Him if you ever want to get into heaven!!! That is what I say, but not me alone. All those writing the Scriptures were also trying to tell you that, but a stubborn people will not listen to Him!! They have to repent first!

Deut 9:13 “The LORD spoke further to me, saying, ‘I have seen this people, and indeed, it is a [stubborn people.

Deut 9:16“But they, our fathers, acted arrogantly; They became stubborn and would not listen to Your commandments.

Notice that it is not written "read your commandments" but rather listen you your commandments!

Is 48:12 “Listen to Me, you stubborn-minded, Who are far from righteousness.

So don't pay attention to my writings - believe what Isaiah wrote to God's people and listen to the Lord!! I am not suggesting any other thing!!

Jn 5: 46,47 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Indeed, if you had believed the sacred writings, written by people who did listen to the Lord so that they wanted you to also listen to the Lord, then you would already know that the Lord speaks and is not dead or in a far off place called heaven! So that you would already know that He speaks to those willing to open up to them today! And so He opens the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf! And I would not have to be writing to a stubborn people who will not listen to the Lord!!

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen To the instruction of the LORD;

Is 30:10 Who say to the seers, “You must not see visions”; And to the prophets, “You must not prophesy to us what is right,
Speak to us pleasant words, Prophesy illusions.

Is 30:11 “Get out of the way, turn aside from the path, Let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.”

Is 30:12 Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel, “Since you have rejected this word And have put your trust in oppression and guile, and have relied on them,

There is a saying we all know that goes - If the shoe fits

Does it? Does what is actually written in the Scriptures apply?

Those who wrote the Bible were always trying to get people to listen to our Lord!! There is nothing new under the sun. So now what?

Is 30:13 Therefore this iniquity will be to you Like a breach about to fall,
A bulge in a high wall, Whose collapse comes suddenly in an instant,

Is 30:14 Whose collapse is like the smashing of a potter’s jar, So ruthlessly shattered
That a sherd will not be found among its pieces To take fire from a hearth
Or to scoop water from a cistern.”

Enough was indeed written so that we should not need anyone like me telling others to listen to Him, but if a person says that all He said was only that spoken to those like Isaiah, so that it is all written down, they prove they didn't believe those like Moses and Isaiah told them about listening to the Lord! So how indeed will they believe His words since they didn't believe the writings?? Yes, their collapse will be like the smashing of a potter's jar, but the Lord still sends people to try and give them hope and turn them to Him - still they scoff!

Yes it does make sense. For example, I find nowhere in the scriptures that God inspired men to write down a trinity doctrine that I must believe, in order to be saved. Yet most trinitarians say if you don't believe the trinity you won't be saved. Yet, God didn't inspire men to write that down anywhere in the scriptures. So I can see for myself that there are men who go beyond what God inspired men to write down. What God inspired men to be written down is scriptures like John 3:16 which teach that you if believe that God sent his only begotten son and whoever exercises faith in him will not perish but have everlasting life. So I believe the scriptures that God inspired men to write down. The scriptures say I must believe that Jesus has a Father and God that is also Jesus apostles and disciples Father and God.(John 20:17)
So it was the Father and God of Jesus that sent Jesus to the world of mankind. I know that the God the Jews believed to be the only true God, the creator of all things, and the source of all life was YHWH. So it was YHWH God who sent his only begotten Son to the world of mankind. That means Jesus is the only begotten Son of YHWH God, not that Jesus is YHWH.

 

[Karl Peters]

Yes it does make sense. For example, I find nowhere in the scriptures that God inspired men to write down a trinity doctrine that I must believe, in order to be saved. Yet most trinitarians say if you don't believe the trinity you won't be saved. Yet, God didn't inspire men to write that down anywhere in the scriptures. So I can see for myself that there are men who go beyond what God inspired men to write down. What God inspired men to be written down is scriptures like John 3:16 which teach that you if believe that God sent his only begotten son and whoever exercises faith in him will not perish but have everlasting life. So I believe the scriptures that God inspired men to write down. The scriptures say I must believe that Jesus has a Father and God that is also Jesus apostles and disciples Father and God.(John 20:17)
So it was the Father and God of Jesus that sent Jesus to the world of mankind. I know that the God the Jews believed to be the only true God, the creator of all things, and the source of all life was YHWH. So it was YHWH God who sent his only begotten Son to the world of mankind. That means Jesus is the only begotten Son of YHWH God, not that Jesus is YHWH.

Who said you have to believe the Trinity Doctrine to be saved???

You have to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, and that means listening to Him, because He said He was always with your and He is the Lord!! So you don't listen to the King of kings and Lord or lords, and then think knowing the trinity doctrine saves you???

The only thing is, that if you believe in Jesus Christ and thus listen to Him as your Lord who is always with you to be your Lord, meaning give you instructions personally - then you will find out that His Father gave Him all things including the very words of God, so He only does and say only what the Father tell Him, and the Holy Spirit does not speak on His own initiative but take the words of God which now belong to the Son (Jesus Christ)

Therefore you don't have to believe in the Trinity Doctrine - that is silly. But you do have to believe in Jesus Christ! And doing that means hearing from Him (faith comes from hearing a word from Him Rom 10) and hearing Him means you would find out that the Father, Son, and Spirit are One God, because the words of God you hear came from the Father, belong to the Son, and come to you via the Holy Spirit!! So you understand the Father, Son, and Spirit our One if you believe in Jesus Christ!! And if you don't believe in Jesus Christ it is doubtfull you really understand the trinity doctrine any way.

Isn't that why you thought you had to believe in the trinity doctrine?? The Bible does exclaim that, but it does say all the above - That faith comes from hearing, and we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, and that He have been given all things which including the words of God from the Father, and that the Holy Spirit does not speak on His own initiative but takes from the Son whose name is called The Word of God, and bring His words to us. All that is clearly written in the Scriptures - so how come you pretend to go by the Bible and don't even believe in Jesus Christ - and instead think that anyone told you that you had to believe in the trinity. Becuase that is not the case, only that if you truly believe in Jesus Christ you come to know about how God (Father, Son, and Spirit) are One God, because you listened and found out that!

And the problems with the Jews in general - was that they too didn't listen because they too did not believe in the Christ and know Him!!

Oh - there were a small few that knew Him, like Anna and Simeon who knew the child in front of them was the Christ, because they listened to God (Father, Son, Spirit) but in general they said "Let not god speak to us!" even from the time Moses tried to get them to listen at the mountain of God!! So the prophets also told them, that they were a stubborn people!! Are you really going to use them as an example to follow to the Lord??

The Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Jews in general were just a bunch of religious people never coming to know the Lord. Does that sound like anyone you see in the mirror?

Is 65:2 “I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts,

That is the Jews you refer to!! All day long the Lord tried to get their attention, year after year after year, and they still walked in their way which is not good, and followed their own thoughts - never seeking the voice of the Lord!! So they dreadfully lack understanding, and it came to the point that they hung the Word of God - the very One that Moses, Isaiah, Abraham all talked to, but they would not listen!!


Just like some we find today!!


Now I am going waking with the Lord Jesus Christ. We again today will walk and talk together, just like yesterday. And it will be nice a peaceful, unlike dealing with a stubborn people who thinking someone told them to believe in the trinity, when all they have been told is to believe in Jesus Christ which they don't or they would know about how the Father, Son, and Spirit are One God. It is because the words from God you hear came from the Father, were given to the Son, from who the Spirit took them and gave them to any wanting to listen - but they don't want to listen even thought He has called out to them ALL DAY LONG!! THEY DON'T BELIEVE, THEY JUST GIVE IT LIP SERVICE!!

 

[Karl Peters]

I just got back from my nice wonderful walk with my Lord - Jesus Christ. (as I mentioned in the prior post that I was going to do)

I started off by apologizing to Him, because He had asked me to write before the walk (so the prior post) and I gotten so upset dealing with another "Christian" who refused to seek the voice of the Lord, and was thinking we (the church including myself) were telling him he had to believe in the trinity. Which of course is not the case. The church, (including myself) say a person has to believe in Jesus Christ, which that same man claimed to believe. Now I know that if he did believe in Jesus Christ he too would walk and talk with our Lord and thus hear from the Lord personally. If he did he would know about how the Father, Son, and Spirit are One.

Anyway, I had gotten a bit frustrated with the man and was apologizing to the Lord. He responded back to me, "Karl, I understand. But you only had to deal with that man while you wrote, I have to deal with Him ALL DAY LONG!".

That made me laugh, because I had used those very words that He had spoken through Isaiah. It's true. He has to deal with those who don't listen to Him ALL DAY LONG! So, he understands how it can be frustrating trying to get people to listen to Him. Fortunately, He has so soo much more patience's than I do.

As we walked and talked He was telling me about a place in the Bible where the trinity is easy to see. He also told me that those not wanted to listen to Him would not see it, because they didn't want ears to hear and eyes to see, so they would not be willing to see it even if I clearly explained it.

So I will give it a try. Hear is the verses He showed me in a vision while on the walk, where He claimed the trinity could be seen. Do you see it?

Gen 15; 1,2 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not fear, Abram,
I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great.”
Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”

I saw it, but He went ahead and explained it to me which confirmed what I saw.

First Jesus Christ it the Word of God (Rev 19:13) That is His name, so where we read 'word of the LORD' that is Jesus Christ. Next the Holy Spirit if of course a spirit and a vision is a spiritual thing. So, where we read "in a vision" it shows the Holy Spirit doing His work. Then in the next verse where we read, "O Lord God" we get the understanding of Abram who knew that He was talking to the Father, thru the Word of God - Jesus Christ - and that via the Holy Spirit - in a vision.

That is how God is one - that is to say: The Father gives His words to His Son "The Word of God' and the Holy Spirit brings the whole thing to us via a vision and that small voice of the Lord talking to us! Abraham knew, understood, and believed, and since Moses wrote Genisis, he too knew, understood, and believed.

Now we believe in Jesus Christ - The Word of God - because He is the One speaking to Abram, and to us too if we listen by faith. Yet to listen means we understand that He, as the Word of God, got His words from His Father, and since we pick it all up like in a small voice in a vision, we understand that the Holy Spirit is behind us getting all the information!!

Yet it is also written, Prov 2:6
For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

I know how come so many people have trouble understanding.

 

[robert derrick]

That is not my error - it is your failure to understand!

The Lord told me the other day to give you an example from C. S Lewis. He actually uses his example to prove that God exists but it also shows our conscience verse the Lord truth.

C. S Lewis starts off Mere Christianity with chapter 1 with the title "The Law of Human Nature" in which we find two men discussing what it right and what is not right. Both men have and idea that there is "some kind of Law or Rule of faith play of decent behavior or morality or whatever you like to call it, about which they really agreed." Still, we find that the two men "Quarrelling" and to show that the other man is in the wrong.

Now C S Lewis uses this to show that inside both men must be aware that there is some Truth, or God, thereby proving God exists. Yet this also proves that we have each of us our conscience, which is our personal moral belief that is not the same belief about the Truth, but is not the Truth/God!! It also shows that we are influence and indeed believe we can influence (teach) others and affect their conscience!!

Indeed - this forum is usually more about influencing that other person's beliefs about what is right (their conscience) than actually leading them to listen to the Truth (Jesus Christ)

Our conscience, which is our moral belief in what is right and wrong, can and is influenced by others! We even know that, which is shown by our actions - those quarrels we have about what is right or wrong with others.

Still our conscience, as point out already, is not good!! And it is not God/the Truth!! And only God is good!! Just like is explained in the Bible!! So, listening to our conscience is not the same as listening to God!!

Yes, people who do not listen to God have a conscience and that is a better part of them, but it is still learned and influenced by others. Indeed, my conscience tells me that I need to stop leaning on my understanding so much, which is hard for me to do. Even my conscience now tries to get me to listen to the Lord, but it never did before the Lord came into my life and by His Holy Spirit speaking to me, He influenced me by His teachings to me!!

I learn things. That is the nature of men. God uses that, and so do we. It affects our moral understanding, which we like to quarrel over. That proves God exists, just like C S Lewis writes.

We disagree on the nature of the conscience. You say it is our moral code of knowledge and understanding, and I say it is the godly conviction given by Christ to all men entering into the world.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Man's conscience is not what man knows or thinks he knows, but is the divine conviction of the Spirit against sinning, that needs no learned understanding nor knowledge.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last.

We see in Scripture, that the consciences of the men went against knowledge, since the law commanded to stone the adulterer. Conscience is not just knowledge, but is the conviction of the Spirit of Christ, even if against our own learned understanding.

Knowledge can deceive the mind, but not the conscience. Every man must override the conscience against the conviction of the Spirit, in order to sin against Christ. What we believe or think we understand at the time, means nothing in the judgement of God.

And so, if you are teaching to overriding the conscience in order to obey an inner voice, as a means of greater enlightenment, then you are teaching Christians to sear their own conscience, in order to grow in Christ.

Once again, are you saying that we should learn to obey a spiritual voice within, even if it means defiling the conscience, in order to grow spiritually?

 

[Karl Peters]

We disagree on the nature of the conscience. You say it is our moral code of knowledge and understanding, and I say it is the godly conviction given by Christ to all men entering into the world.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Man's conscience is not what man knows or thinks he knows, but is the divine conviction of the Spirit against sinning, that needs no learned understanding nor knowledge.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last.

We see in Scripture, that the consciences of the men went against knowledge, since the law commanded to stone the adulterer. Conscience is not just knowledge, but is the conviction of the Spirit of Christ, even if against our own learned understanding.

Knowledge can deceive the mind, but not the conscience. Every man must override the conscience against the conviction of the Spirit, in order to sin against Christ. What we believe or think we understand at the time, means nothing in the judgement of God.

And so, if you are teaching to overriding the conscience in order to obey an inner voice, as a means of greater enlightenment, then you are teaching Christians to sear their own conscience, in order to grow in Christ.

Once again, are you saying that we should learn to obey a spiritual voice within, even if it means defiling the conscience, in order to grow spiritually?

We disagree on the nature of the conscience. You say it is our moral code of knowledge and understanding, and I say it is the godly conviction given by Christ to all men entering into the world.

You are confusing the Holy Spirit with our conscience!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You even understand that by what you write!!

If we indeed have a "godly conviction' it come means it is a conviction from God, and indeed the Lord sends His Holy Spirit to convict us our our sin!! Jesus explained that He reproves those He loves and indeed, He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hear His voice and opens the door He will come into them and eat with them. (Rev 3:19,20) And we know that He speaks through His Holy Spirit who does not speak on His own, but rather the Holy Spirit takes the words of God which belong to Jesus Christ and the Spirit speaks them to us. God is omnipresent, but men to not believe that, so they don't believe in Jesus Christ, but rather themselves!!

Thinking that the 'godly conviction' which is Jesus Christ reproving us via His Holy Spirit, is our conscience is nothing less that not having belief in Jesus Christ!!!

And that my friend, needs to be changed. We must believe that Jesus Christ is there (omni-present) and as the Word of God so is trying to help us by speaking to us via His Holy Spirit!! If we do believe in Jesus Christ then we will open up to His voice, and you will find out that His thoughts are not our thoughts!!! Yet you are trying to claim that His thoughts are our 'godly conviction'! So why then would you actually seek His voice, since you believe you by nature have your own 'godly conviction'?

By nature, men are sinners, denying the presence of God. Yet we still think we have it all figured out and thus figure that we a capable of figuring it all out. Which is why we convict other people, even God (Jesus Christ) by our own conscience (our sinful nature which believes we can be like God understanding good and evil) WE BUY INTO THE LIE!

Gen 3:4,5 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Thinking that 'our conscience' is our godly nature is thinking that we will be like God, knowing good and evil! Do we still not understand that when the devil speaks, he always speaks a lie, because that is his nature. He is evil, as are we, because we bought into that lie from that snake in the garden!

Only God is good, but He stands there speaking to us, so if anyone opens up to Him, He will come into them and eat with them and them with us. We know that in our spirit, but we don't listen to our spirit who can hear the Holy Spirit if we care to believe! We don't want God telling us what is right and wrong, we want to lean on our understanding!! Yes, we have an understanding of good and evil, of God and that snake, but we by our understanding choose the snake, that belief we can be like God.

This would be funny because it is so obvious that it is like a chicken joke, which is funny only because it is so obvious, except the consequences for not understanding that is hell for eternity.

A number of years ago I was going to work early in the morning. I wanted to talk to the Lord, but usually what He tells me is so incredible that I wind up thinking hard about it. I didn't want to think too hard that morning, so I asked the Lord if we could talk about something easy to understand.

He responded, "Karl, what you that be like?"

I told Him, "Perhaps you have a joke or something?"

He responded, "You mean like a chicken joke? I have a chicken joke!"

I laughed, thinking about God with a chicken joke, and told Him, "Ok, what is your the chicken joke?"

So He told me His chicken joke, "How does the fox get a chicken to cross to his side of the road?

Humm - I thought about His chicken joke and could not figure out how a fox could get a chicken cross over to his side of a road. So I told the Lord, "I give up. How did the fox get the chicken to cross over to his side of the road?"

The Lord answered, "He used a crowbar!"

Well. that answer seemed funny, but I still didn't get it!

So I told the Lord I still didn't get His chicken joke, and He explained it to me, "Karl, if you are going to get a chicken to come over to your side of the road you are going have to make a sound like the rooster, and the roosters song is a crow, and part of a song is a bar! So the fox went cock-a-doodle-doo."

Ok, I got God's chicken joke. But even His chicken joke - got me thinking hard about what He said. So it seems God just can't keep from being incredible if we do listen to Him. And do we still not understand? The person thinking that our conscience and our thinking is incredibly good thinking, they are listening to pride (that snake of old)! Still we think that we have a 'godly nature' in us as our conscience! So that old fox (which is that same slithering creature who was being cleaver in the garden of even) is still trying to convince us that we can be like God!

About a week after the Lord told me that chicken joke I was talking to Him about angels. I was asking the Lord, "Angels are smart, aren't they?"

He responded, "Yes, oh yes Karl! I made angels smart! For example, they would have gotten the chicken joke!"

People, God made us and will count us as His children, if we start listening to Him. But that doesn't even mean we are smart enough to get His chicken joke! And we know that only reason a chicken joke if funny if because it is so obvious that only a very young child can't get it!

So why does a chicken cross the road? To get to the other side! That is only funny because it is so obvious! Still, we chicken (people) keep crossing over to the devil's side of the road. How stupid are we? No wonder the Lord calls out in pain!

Mat 26: 73 -75 A little later the bystanders came up and said to Peter, “Surely you too are one of them; for even the way you talk [fn]gives you away.”
Then he began to curse and swear, “I do not know the man!” And immediately a rooster crowed.
And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, “Before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly.

Indeed, if you are thinking that Jesus Christ calling out to you is your 'our conscience' then you are denying Him over and over and over!!

Do you not know that you're killing the Word of God (Jesus Christ) and are crossing over to the side to that snake/fox, the devil who roams the world?










Jn 8:46 “Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?

 

[Karl Peters]

People - The Holy Spirit is not you and your spirit!! He is not your conscience!!

The Holy Spirit brings the words of God which belong to Jesus Christ, because the Father gave the Son all things, including the words of God.

The Holy Spirit, as God is omni-present. So, the Holy Spirit is always around you so that if you believe in Jesus Christ, and again Jesus is the Word of God because He has the words of God for you personally, then the Holy Spirit will be able to get through to you because the believer seeks to listens for God - not themselves!!

And if you seek you will find. You will also find that the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit around speaking to you. So, discernment is needed! So, the truth of what is around you in the spirit realm comes from practicing using your spiritual senses by seeking the Lord Jesus Christ for what He has to say to you via His Holy Spirit!!

That is what it means to believe in Jesus Christ! That is what it truly means to be a Christian!! We are followers of Jesus Christ and He leads us by His voice! His sheep do hear His voice - and we can hear the Holy Spirit in words - what we call that small voice which is the Word of God (Jesus Christ) talking to us via His Holy Spirit!

He once told me, "Karl, understanding is understanding that I AM understanding! Understanding?"

So if you understand that Jesus Christ is the I AM, The Word of God, the Wonderful Counselor, The Might God, then you will understand that He is Understanding, and someone you want as your friend! You will seek Him for what He speaks to you personally, via His Holy Spirit speaking to your spirit!

As Understanding, He will not leave you blind!!!

How is it so many "Christians" do not understand this?

 

[robert derrick]

Thinking that the 'godly conviction' which is Jesus Christ reproving us via His Holy Spirit, is our conscience is nothing less that not having belief in Jesus Christ!!!

And so now you descend into misstating what others say, when the correction cannot be refuted.

You are the only one saying our conscience is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

If we do believe in Jesus Christ then we will open up to His voice, and you will find out that His thoughts are not our thoughts!!!
We must believe that Jesus Christ is there (omni-present) and as the Word of God so is trying to help us by speaking to us via His Holy Spirit!!

True, but if any spirit and voice tries to 'help us' by requiring us to defile our conscience, then it is of the devil, and not Jesus Christ.

If we do believe in Jesus Christ then we will open up to His voice, and you will find out that His thoughts are not our thoughts!!!

True. That is by learning the truth of Scripture, and becoming strong in the word. It is not by following voices that require us to defile our conscience, and so eat while doubting without faith.

And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

A convicted conscience is doubting. Overriding the conviction is damned.

By nature, men are sinners, denying the presence of God.

False. All souls of men are created by Christ, not the devil. All men are lightened by the true light of Christ coming into the world, not by darkness of the devil.

Yet we still think we have it all figured out and thus figure that we a capable of figuring it all out.

You must be speaking of yourself. It's strange that someone claiming to know the secret of spiritual growth, talks of himself as a proud natural man, and not an humble and meek born son of God.

Which is why we convict other people, even God (Jesus Christ) by our own conscience (our sinful nature which believes we can be like God understanding good and evil) WE BUY INTO THE LIE!

False teachers guilt trip others by giving their own commandments and traditions for law and doctrine of Christ.

The weaker brethren lack knowledge of good and evil, because they are not yet strong in the word.

I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

even God (Jesus Christ) by our own conscience (our sinful nature which believes we can be like God understanding good and evil) WE BUY INTO THE LIE!

Now you are saying that knowing good or evil can only be by defiling our conscience, in order to follow an inner voice.

Learning to know good or evil, is by Scripture of God telling man what God says is good and evil.

Your teaching gives no proving of the spirit by Scripture.

The spirit of antichrist contradicts Scripture, and demands defiling the conscience to 'spiritually grow'.

Thinking that 'our conscience' is our godly nature

Your words only. If you want someone to clarify what they mean. The first quote them, and then ask.

Thinking that 'our conscience' is our godly nature is thinking that we will be like God, knowing good and evil!

The promise was to be as gods in our own right, to decide for ourselves what is good and evil.

The promise of the gospel is to be like Christ as born sons of God, knowing what is good and evil according to the Scriptures, and doing the good only.

Your teaching to learn good and evil by spiritual voice alone, without conscience, is erroneous spiritual growth, while searing the conscience.

Do we still not understand that when the devil speaks, he always speaks a lie, because that is his nature.

Yes. He contradicts Scripture, and sears the conscience to the truth.

He is evil, as are we, because we bought into that lie from that snake in the garden!

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

If labelling ourselves as evil as the devil, is the result of your spiritual growth by voice alone, then it proves the point.

You need to do less voice seeking, and more Scripture reading to prove the spirits.

Only God is good, but He stands there speaking to us, so if anyone opens up to Him, He will come into them and eat with them and them with us.

No man opens the door to Christ to obey His voice by defiling the conscience. Nor does the Lord lead by voice, that requires the conscience to be done away with.

In effect, you are teaching spiritual growth by having no conscience. Whether it's good or evil to us, just do it anyway and grow thereby.

As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.

We don't grow by the milk of serpents speaking as a spirit, that sounds like a christ trying to get us to 'grow'.

 

[robert derrick]

A number of years ago I was going to work early in the morning. I wanted to talk to the Lord, but usually what He tells me is so incredible that I wind up thinking hard about it. I didn't want to think too hard that morning, so I asked the Lord if we could talk about something easy to understand.

He responded, "Karl, what you that be like?"

I told Him, "Perhaps you have a joke or something?"

He responded, "You mean like a chicken joke? I have a chicken joke!"

I laughed, thinking about God with a chicken joke, and told Him, "Ok, what is your the chicken joke?"

So He told me His chicken joke, "How does the fox get a chicken to cross to his side of the road?

Humm - I thought about His chicken joke and could not figure out how a fox could get a chicken cross over to his side of a road. So I told the Lord, "I give up. How did the fox get the chicken to cross over to his side of the road?"

The Lord answered, "He used a crowbar!"

Well. that answer seemed funny, but I still didn't get it!

So I told the Lord I still didn't get His chicken joke, and He explained it to me, "Karl, if you are going to get a chicken to come over to your side of the road you are going have to make a sound like the rooster, and the roosters song is a crow, and part of a song is a bar! So the fox went cock-a-doodle-doo."

And after all this free-wheeling personal talk time with the the Lord, you still speak of being evil as the devil?

You can have so many conversations with the God you can't see, and yet speak foolishly with men that can hear you?

Sorry man, but I really don't care about the personal conversations of your spirit. Contradicting Scripture, and teaching to do away with conscience for spiritual growth, is a conscience searing lie.

The Lord speaks to me personally by voice in the affairs of my life. When I ask Him whether to do this or that, He tells me yes, no, or wait. And He has never ever come anywhere near to telling me to do something against my own conscience. He can show us by Scripture how our personal conscience is weak in certain matters, but He never does so by telling us to do something against our weak conscience.

What you are teaching is a forced liberty over conscience by spiritual voice, that Scripture condemns any man for doing.

15But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Indeed, if you are thinking that Jesus Christ calling out to you is your 'our conscience' then you are denying Him over and over and over!!

Your words again, not mine. Jesus has never spoken to me contrary to my conscience.

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

The voice of the Lord is pure, peaceable, and easy to understand, and does not fight with our own conscience.

Do you not know that you're killing the Word of God (Jesus Christ) and are crossing over to the side to that snake/fox, the devil who roams the world?

I'm not the one saying I'm as evil as the devil.

The difference between me and you, is that for me Scripture is the guiding truth of the Spirit of truth, adn we spiritually grow by doing the word as written, not by meaningless conversations with our spirit about how smart angels are.

Because they aren't that smart, and some of them are liars.

And none of them are as smart as Jesus Christ, nor as smart as the souls of saved men that have His mind:

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The good angels want to know what we know, which is how I know the spirit telling you how smart angels are, is not that of Christ, but that of the boaster:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

I think you're getting into some serious angel worship with your abundance of spirit speak.

One question: are you still doing sinful works of the flesh? Or are you doing the righteousness of Christ, even as He is righteous?

 

[Karl Peters]

You are the only one saying our conscience is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

You wrote:

We disagree on the nature of the conscience. You say it is our moral code of knowledge and understanding, and I say it is the godly conviction given by Christ to all men entering into the world.

Christ - who we call Jesus, and whose name is called "The Word of God (Rev 19:13) because He speaks to us and He reproves us (Rev 3:19) which is the "godly conviction given by Christ to all men. So you were right about Christ giving all men entering into the word conviction/reproof, but He does that by speaking to us, and His words our not our words - so His reproof is not our conscience!! It is His words of reproof to all men, but His words our not our words so not our conscience - LIKE YOU SAID!!!

Our conscience is our reproof to ourselves. So it ourselves decided what we are going to do. That is to say we reason in ourselves about what to do!

For example we reason in ourselves like: Do we want to take a change and park illegally when we could get a ticket or pay the parking fee and spend the money to make sure we don't get the ticket even though it will surely cost us now? We reason and usually come to the conclusion that we will pay the money for the parking ticket because it is the right thing to do. And we like to think we are good people - or maybe we need the money more than we need to be right. None of that is God speaking to us - but it is our reasoning, and our learning has a lot to do with that. If we were brought up in a household whose parents never paid a parking ticket but always tried to get away with things, our reasoning is different. It is more likely going to be not to get the ticket if we are pretty sure they never ticket there, and that is ok to some people and their consciences (reasoning) does not bother them because they are making the best decision.

Of course, they might also find religion and wind up being taught against it and taught to consider others and make attempts to abide by the Law. Still, that is following the Law, and the Lord passed down the Law when the people would not listen to Him.

A good example of this might be:

Acts 10:13-16 A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!”
But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.”
Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider [unholy.”
This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the [sky.

In the above example Peter's conscience was telling Peter not to listen to the Lord's voice, because Peter was going to do what he had learn to be right. So the voice of the Lord reproves Peter, and look "This happen three times" before Peter could get himself to go against his "conscience"!!!! So there is absolutely a difference between us going by what our conscience (our reasoning about what is right) and actually listening to the voice of the Lord.

And the "godly conviction" was not Peter's conscience but came from the Lord speaking to him!!!

So what you did actually write down " I say it is the godly conviction given by Christ" is wrong!! The 'godly conviction given by Christ' is not our conscience, it is Christ talking to us! Our conscience is our understanding of what's right and wrong, and that is learned!

 

[robert derrick]

Christ - who we call Jesus, and whose name is called "The Word of God (Rev 19:13) because He speaks to us and He reproves us (Rev 3:19) which is the "godly conviction given by Christ to all men. So you were right about Christ giving all men entering into the word conviction/reproof, but He does that by speaking to us, and His words our not our words -

Not always by words of voice. Sometimes we are convicted about something, and we don't even know why. Scripture says not to defile our conscience, whether we know why or not.

Our conscience is our reproof to ourselves. So it ourselves decided what we are going to do. That is to say we reason in ourselves about what to do!

If we are convicted about something, we just don't do it. Any 'reasoning' is simple arguments to override our conscience.

Our conscience is not our mind, but is the brakelight of our heart.

If we lack wisdom in a certain matter, then we ask God, and go not by our own understanding. But that is not a matter of conscience, but only what is best to do in our affairs of life.

For example we reason in ourselves like: Do we want to take a change and park illegally when we could get a ticket or pay the parking fee and spend the money to make sure we don't get the ticket even though it will surely cost us now? We reason and usually come to the conclusion that we will pay the money for the parking ticket because it is the right thing to do. And we like to think we are good people - or maybe we need the money more than we need to be right.

This is not reasoning over what is good or evil, but is trying to change our conscience about it.

We can change our conscience by arguing against it, until it is seared.

God never changes our conscience by having us sear it, especially not by any spirit nor voice within.

None of that is God speaking to us -

Correct. It is us arguing against our conscience and God.

God never speaks to anyone about changing their conscience, except by first transforming our minds to be renewed with His knowledge of good and evil, that is only found in Scripture.

And while our minds are being transformed, our conscience remains pure and undefiled.

Acts 10:13-16 A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!”
But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.”
Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider [unholy.”
This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the [sky.

Now you give Scripture for your argument. Good job.

However, your argument is to defile our conscience by the voice of the Lord.

Peter did not. God did not make him. And foreknowing all things, God did not expect him to.

God was preparing Peter for the conversion of Cornelius' house.

Peter did well by not defiling his conscience, and did even better by understanding he was not defiling himself in the house of a Gentile.

Until our mind is renewed by Scriptural doctrine of Christ, we must not defile our conscience, especially not by 'voice' within.

My example: I was a Pentecostal holiness minister. I left that organizatioin of churches due to abuse of the people for profit. I still believed in pentecostal holiness rules. Only after reading Scripture with a clear mind for only what is written, did I understand many of those rules were only carnal ordinances and commandments of men.

Not until I knew by Scripture, that drunkeness is the sin, and not drinking wine, did I drink wine again.

My conscience remained clear throughout the renewing of my mind from that of men's traditions, to that of the doctrine of Christ in Scripture.

Like Peter, I was being told by others, and even hearing from the Lord, that drinking wine is not a sin. But only after my mind was renewed in truth of Scripture, did I do so. And I didn't do so for a year to two, until my conscience was fully clear about it.

So there is absolutely a difference between us going by what our conscience (our reasoning about what is right) and actually listening to the voice of the Lord.

Exactly, and like Peter we must never defile our conscience in the name of Christian spiritual growth. Even if that includes signs from heaven.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.

The difference between God and Satan, is that God tests us with our conscience about His will, while Satan demands we defile the conscience to do his will.

And the "godly conviction" was not Peter's conscience but came from the Lord speaking to him!!!

Not true at that time. His conscience was still weak, and so he did not defile it.

Only in the context of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to Cornelius' household, was his conscience made clear, when he understood the reason for the test to eat Mosaic unclean flesh.

So what you did actually write down " I say it is the godly conviction given by Christ" is wrong!! The 'godly conviction given by Christ' is not our conscience, it is Christ talking to us!

I see the mistake. Perhaps I was not clear. I never said the godly conviction was our conscience, as though God is our conscience, but that Christ gives all men a godly conscience coming into the world, which can be convicted by the Holy Spirit.

That pure conscience is only defiled by sinning against Christ. And that pure conscience is returned when becoming as newborn babes again.

When we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost living within us, He does not become our spirit. But the gift of a godly conscience becomes our own to keep clean and undefiled.

The 'godly conviction given by Christ' is not our conscience, it is Christ talking to us! Our conscience is our understanding of what's right and wrong, and that is learned!

And here I believe is our main disagreement. God does not speak to our conscience to instruct us, but speaks to our mind to renew us in His knowledge, which will always be confirmed by Scripture.

It is the devil that speaks against our conscience, to try and defile us by obeying him.

The conclusion of the matter is simple:

Like Peter, we must never defile our conscience in the name of spiritual growth, even if by the voice of the Lord with signs from heaven.

First our mind must be renewed by the gospel of Jesus Christ, that our conscience may remain clear and clean.

 

[Phoneman777]

This came up on another thread. The point made was that we need to just do what our Lord Jesus Christ tells us to do, and we don't need to get understanding but just do it!

This is soooo wrong, and it is not how a relationship with Him is, but I see it often misunderstood.

The was a series call Joan of Arcadia. I actually like the series, but it also has the this misunderstanding wrong too. In the series we find "God" showing up in other people giving Joan instructions, which if she follows give her understanding, but she is just supposed to follow the instructions and not ask questions.

God can use other people, and because we find His words in our heart and in our mouths, the Lord can use what other people say to get words from Him to us. We are not actually preaching to find the Word of God in other people's mouth, but rather in our heart and mouth. We do find out that He is also putting His words in the mouth of others also, but we don't preach that because we are preaching a personal relationship with Him!!

Part of the very important personal relationship that He wants to have with us includes going over things and reasoning with us personally, to help us understand!!

Is 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.

The above is what He really wants, that you come and reason with Him. So ask Him question!! That is part of reasoning with Him!! So don't just try and do what He tells you, but talk to Him, reason with Him (find the reason for doing what He asks) and get understanding from Him!!

He gives you ears to hear and eyes to see, when you seek Him so that you can get more understanding!!! Yes, He will give you instructions, like in Joan of Arcadis, which when you do them give you more understanding, but really the understanding comes from His voice!! So get Him to talk to you more by reasoning with Him!!

If He asks you to do something, start asking Him for understanding. That is what He want - that personal relationship with you. So talk, reason, ask, consider, and get information from Him as you can!!

He once told me, "Karl, understanding is understanding that I am Understanding."

Understanding is one of His names! He is called Understanding because talking with Him give you understanding, and understanding that is getting real understanding.

He is not about leading us blindly! He is about giving us understanding!!

So don't go telling others to just do what He tells them, tell them to talk to Him and listen to what He says!! Yeah - if you do that you will do what He tells you, but you will also pick up understanding about Him, and even the understanding that He is Understanding!!

Prov 7:4 Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,”
And call understanding your intimate friend;

Jesus Christ is Understanding and you though He is your Lord He still wants to be your friend!!! So He will answer your questions, as a friend!!

Did Abraham wait to gain understanding before taking Isaac up to Mount Moriah?

"Trust and obey,
for there's no other way,
to be happy in Jesus,
but to trust and obey".

 

[Phoneman777]

for the CC , the jw the adventist the mormon and scores of others read the bible through the lens of men gone wrong .
I simply said and do say , IF YE LOVE CHRIST READ IT FOR YOURSELF and then watch what happens over time .
SORRY but i cant point you all to any good teachers of today , BUT i can point you all
to the ONLY TRUE TEACHER and MASTER , SO OPEN BIBLE and learn OF HIM . I dont care how much folks hate
me for this continual reminder , I LOVE THEM SO I KEEP REMINDING THEM

"...read the Bible through the lens of men gone wrong"? As an Adventist, can I ask you to back up such an objectionable, inflammatory statement with regard to these two following points?

(1) Are Christians free to violate the Ten Commandments? Then, why does everyone disregard the 4th?

(2) Does not the entire Christian world owe a debt of gratitude to God for raising up His Seventh-day Adventist remnant church whose teachings enabled Christianity to exchange the lie of Post-Millennialism for the truth of His soon return, which the churches fought for decades but now preach like they discovered it all on their own?

That's why our name says it all:
"Seventh-day" - because obedience was/is/always will be the outward evidence of an inward choice for Jesus.

"Adventist" - because the prophecies can only be rightly understood in the light of a soon return of Jesus.

The name stands as a rebuke to the majority of the Christian world which insists on having Jesus as their Savior but not as their Lord to obey...and for denying Jesus' soon return, either explicitly by word or implicitly by an unholy life lived as if they have until the end of time to prepare to meet Him in peace.

 

[Phoneman777]

It's sad to hear that you're still on a path, good luck with that..:)
Jesus can easily be found in a simple gospel like this one, the path ended for me (and for many others) when we knocked on his door and he said "Come on in, the kettle's on"..:)

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I thought it was Jesus that did the knocking and we did the inviting in, right or wrong?