HE CHOSE US

[GodsGrace]

In their own words, Calvinists preach the Gospel because this is the God-ordained MEANS by which God brings His Elect into the fold. It's just God's nice way of giving other Christians something to do here on earth., while He gets the public glory.

It's a weird way of thinking. The cause and effect are kinda mixed up.

I don't believe this is correct Lambano.
Calvinists do not know the means by which God chooses persons.
They will state this over and over and appeal to mystery.
They say that God chooses persons based on His own good pleasure.

The final thing I want to note is found in Ephesians 1:5. We are chosen “according to”—on the basis of—“the good pleasure” of God’s will (NKJV). God chooses and elects us according to what kind of pleasure? “According to the good pleasure of His will.”

source: God’s Good Pleasure in Election

 

[Johann]

I don't believe this is correct Lambano.
Calvinists do not know the means by which God chooses persons.
They will state this over and over and appeal to mystery.
They say that God chooses persons based on His own good pleasure.

The final thing I want to note is found in Ephesians 1:5. We are chosen “according to”—on the basis of—“the good pleasure” of God’s will (NKJV). God chooses and elects us according to what kind of pleasure? “According to the good pleasure of His will.”

source: God’s Good Pleasure in Election

Just to get the context-

Eph 1:3 Praise to God for Spiritual Blessings
¶ Blessed is [Or “blessed be ”] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love, [Or “before him, having predestined us in love” (the phrase “in love” could go either with v. 4 or v. 5)]
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption through Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he bestowed on us in the beloved,
Eph 1:7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 that he caused to abound to us in all wisdom and insight,
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he purposed in him,
Eph 1:10 for the administration of the fullness of times, to bring together all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in him
Eph 1:11 in whom also we were chosen, having been predestined according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12 that we who hoped beforehand in Christ should be for the praise of his glory,
Eph 1:13 in whom also you, when you heard [*This participle (“hearing”) and the following one (“believing”) are understood as temporal] the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.

J

 

[David in NJ]

He chose Israel because Abraham, on his own volition, worshipped Him. God did not pick Abraham or his descendants out of randomness or because He liked him more than everyone else.

A heretic named John Calvin believed that God chose those who convert to Christianity. In actuality, people come to God on their own free will. If God removed free will from mankind and chose who would be saved, He would choose EVERYBODY.

I can tell you one thing, if God individually picked who comes to Him, I know he definitely would not have chosen me.

Edited to add: If God chose people individually, would that mean he went "Nahh" when it comes to people who leave Christianity

AGREE with your post on 'free will' and i am NOT a Calvinist and never read anything on or of him.

This does not negate that God chooses us BEFORE we ever decided to come to Him.

Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
Of His Own Will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. - James 1:16-18

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” - John 6:35-40

At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father.
Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light

 

[Lambano]

I don't believe this is correct Lambano.
Calvinists do not know the means by which God chooses persons.

No, no, no! I said (or meant) that the proclamation of the Gospel is a God-ordained means by which God brings his Elect to faith. The Gospel is proclaimed, God regenerates the Elect's heart to believe it, and when they believe it, they are justified by faith. The choosing itself was done "before the foundation of the world". See the difference between "Election" and "Justification"?

One of my textbooks says the test of whether you understand the point of contention is whether you can state the point of contention in terms that your opponent can agree with. I should ask the local Calvinists if they agree that I have stated their position accurately.

 

[Johann]

No, no, no! I said (or meant) that the proclamation of the Gospel is a God-ordained means by which God brings his Elect to faith. The Gospel is proclaimed, God regenerates the Elect's heart to believe it, and when they believe it, they are justified by faith. The choosing itself was done "before the foundation of the world". See the difference between "Election" and "Justification"?

One of my textbooks says the test of whether you understand the point of contention is whether you can state the point of contention in terms that your opponent can agree with. I should ask the local Calvinists if they agree that I have stated their position accurately.

Your statement is theologically sound from a Reformed perspective, which teaches that election (God’s sovereign choice) happens before the foundation of the world, and justification (being declared righteous) happens when a person believes the Gospel. In this view, the proclamation of the Gospel is the instrumental means through which God calls His elect, regenerates their hearts, and enables them to believe. This distinction between election and justification aligns with passages such as Ephesians 1:4-5, which speaks of election before creation, and Romans 5:1, which links justification with faith.

However, this is based on a Calvinistic interpretation and may not align with all theological perspectives.

Correct @Lambano?

 

[amigo de christo]

In their own words, Calvinists preach the Gospel because this is the God-ordained MEANS by which God brings His Elect into the fold. It's just God's nice way of giving other Christians something to do here on earth., while He gets the public glory.

It's a weird way of thinking. The cause and effect are kinda mixed up.

wanna explain HOW ISLAM preaches the gospel . THEY DONT .
so why was islam even brought into this article . FOlks got no idea what is going on .
FIRST they merged the denominations , NOW they gonna merge the religoins .
Making the false religoins seem no worse off that the denominations . THEY SLICK dude .
WHY did that writer even bring ISLAM into the article . ISLAM is of the devil . its not a messed up denomination
IT aint even OF GOD . THEY glorify another jesus , a lie , and honor a false prophet named muhammed .
SO do tell HOW THIS false religoin of ISLAM glorifies GOD . DO TELL . cause when you try
i will bring a heck of a ton of scrips , of JESUS sayings and the apotsels sayings THAT WILL PROVE it wrong .

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So what does God being sovereign have anything to do with our salvation?

Being in control of good and evil has everything to do with our salvation. God chooses His elect, designs a plan, a journey, beginning in our mother's womb. He protects us at every step, steering us away from danger at times, preventing our death. He orchestrates specific events and people under His umbrella of His drawing power, who come into our lives to witness or minister to us; and as He guides us along this journey ultimately towards a divine appointment, nothing happens by chance coincidence, it is a sovereign, fluid fabric of events knit together. This may take decades or a lifetime of lessons and experiences; bringing one to the point at which you begin to ask the serious questions and begin to realize that your ways that you have been following do not work. Then you are ready, He knocks and you open the door. Being that Author of our faith is just that, including all the details that lead up to it and through it and finishing it. That is sovereignty.

If man has free will does that make God not be sovereign?

The Buble says we are either a slave to sin and Satan or a slave to God. That doesn't sound like your free to do anything you want. Everything we do has consequences. We have broken God's laws. Jesus died for our sins and rise on the third and if we believe this, He liberates us from this bondage. Then we are free agents to do His will, cooperating as He prepares good works for us.

And why can we not know what omnniscient is

You would have to be God to know all. I am just simply stating that foreknowledge is high above our pay grade to assume His ways.

 

[Ritajanice]

Short commentary.

How does God reveal himself through divine revelation?
God reveals himself to us through the natural law, through his creation, through his Word, and through the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ represents the fullness of Divine Revelation

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Then in verses 21-22 we read: Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership [sphragizō] on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing [arrabōn] what is to come.


How does God communicate with our Spirit?
When He wants to communicate with you, He does so directly with your spirit, not your head or your mind; it's a Spirit-to-spirit communication. This is also the kind of communication that takes place when you pray in the spirit – in other tongues; it's a God-ward communication.

My words...Hence becoming Born Of God’s seed, that seed is the Holy Spirit, the seed penetrates the heart of the chosen, takes up residence in the spirit of the chosen, Born Of The Spirit, then we have the gift of Faith to communicate and be led by the Spirit....Spirit gives birth to spirit....of course if one is still carnal in their understanding, they wouldn’t understand what is being said, it takes time to communicate with the Spirit Of God, plus it’s all in the Spirit timing..


The doctrine of predestination teaches that everyone who is saved was chosen by God before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13)

1 Thessalonians 2:13
King James Version
13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.


◄ Ephesians 1 ►
Berean Standard Bible Par ▾
Paul’s Greeting to the Ephesians
(Acts 19:8–12; Revelation 2:1–7)
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints in Ephesus,a the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings
(Romans 8:28–34)
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.

11In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory.

13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

Spiritual Wisdom
(1 Corinthians 2:6–16)
15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of Him.

18I ask that the eyes of your heartb may be enlightened, so that you may know the hope of His calling, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and the surpassing greatness of His power to us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of His mighty strength, 20which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

22And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

 

[GodsGrace]

Just to get the context-

Eph 1:3 Praise to God for Spiritual Blessings
¶ Blessed is [Or “blessed be ”] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love, [Or “before him, having predestined us in love” (the phrase “in love” could go either with v. 4 or v. 5)]
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption through Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he bestowed on us in the beloved,
Eph 1:7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 that he caused to abound to us in all wisdom and insight,
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he purposed in him,
Eph 1:10 for the administration of the fullness of times, to bring together all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in him
Eph 1:11 in whom also we were chosen, having been predestined according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12 that we who hoped beforehand in Christ should be for the praise of his glory,
Eph 1:13 in whom also you, when you heard [*This participle (“hearing”) and the following one (“believing”) are understood as temporal] the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.

J

You've posted a lot of scripture but I don't know why unless you say why.

I believe the discussion with @Lambano is referring to the Ordo Salutis.
What comes first
Belief
or
Salvation

Will reply to him later on.

 

[Biblepaige]

God chose us before he created anything. Our names are irrevocably in his book .

HE CHOSE US

Old Testament
YHWH Chose Israel (taken from Deut. 14:2)
 The VERB (BDB 103, KB 119, Qal PERFECT) is used of God's sovereign choice of:
Abraham, Gen. 12:1; Neh. 9:7
the Patriarchs, Deut. 7:8
the descendants of the Patriarchs, Deut. 4:37; 10:15
Israel, Deut. 7:6; Ps. 135:4; Isa. 44:1,8; 43:10; Ezek. 20:5
Jeshurun (Israel or Jerusalem), Deut. 32:15; 33:5,26; Isa. 44:2
an Israeli king (a symbol of YHWH's rule, which would foreshadow David [cf. 1 Sam. 10:24; 16:8,9,10; 2 Sam. 6:21], who became a Messianic figure), Deut. 17:14-17
place for His name to dwell (i.e., central sanctuary), Deut. 12:5,11,14,18,21,26; 14:24; 15:20; 16:2,6,7,11,15; 17:8,10; 31:11
God's sovereignty and purpose is expressed in His choice of Israel. God's "choice" in the OT is always related to service, not necessarily salvation, as it is in the NT. Israel was to reveal YHWH to the whole world, so that all the world might be saved (cf. Gen. 12:3; quoted in Titus 2:14 and I Pet. 2:9). See SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH'S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN.
Moses Chooses Leaders/Judges – YHWH Appoints them (taken from Deut. 1:13)
 This VERB (BDB 396, KB 393) is a Qal IMPERATIVE. Notice that Moses was commanding the people (i.e., their leaders) to take responsibility (they choose) for the community along with himself (Moses appoints). These new judges (i.e., tribal leaders) were to be:
"wise" – (BDB 314) meaning capable of thoughtful and godly choices (e.g., Joseph, Gen. 41:33,39; David, 2 Sam. 14:20; Solomon, 1 Kgs. 2:9; 3:12; 5:21)
"discerning" – (BDB 106, KB 122, Niphal PARTICIPLE) meaning someone who has discretion, discernment, and intelligence (e.g., Joseph, Gen. 41:33; negative in Jer. 4:22)
"experience" – (BDB 393, KB 390, Qal PASSIVE PARTICIPLE). This is a common word with a large semantic field.
NASB, TEV, NJB, JPSOA – experienced
NKJB – knowledgeable
NRSV, REB – reputable
JB – tested
NIV – respected
NET – known
I will appoint them" – The VERB (BDB 962, KB 1321) is a Qal IMPERFECT, used in the sense of a COHORTATIVE. Moses set or appointed these chosen men to places of leadership and judgment (e.g., Exod. 1:11; 18:21; Deut. 17:14,15; Jdgs. 11:11). However, in reality, it was YHWH who "took" (BDB 542, KB 534, Qal IMPERFECT, Deut. 1:15) them, which denotes God's choice (e.g., Deut. 4:20,34; 1 Kgs. 11:37). The human process followed a divine plan!
YHWH Chose a King (taken from Deut. 17:14)
"and you say, 'I will set a king over me like all the nations who are around me'"
The VERB is a Qal COHORTATIVE (BDB 962, KB 1321). It is repeated four times in Deut. 17:14 and 15. The second (Qal INFINITIVE ABSOLUTE) and third (Qal IMPERFECT) usages go together as a way of intensification:
NASB, NKJV – "you shall surely set"
NRSV – "you may indeed set"
TEV – "be sure"
The problem was not a king, but a "king ‘like all the nations who are around me'"! The king was to represent YHWH (cf. Deut. 17: 8), not Oriental pagan courts. This very issue is dealt with when Israel asked Samuel for a king in 1 Samuel 8.
"whom the Lord your God chooses"
God is sovereign, He (not Israel, cf. Deut. 17:14) chooses the man, but Israel confirms His choice by their affirmation (e.g., Jdgs. 11:11; Hos. 1:11).
Notice the guidelines for kingship:
when Israel possesses the land, Deut. 17:14
one whom YHWH chooses, Deut. 17:15
not a foreigner, Deut. 17:15
he shall not trust in military armament ("multiply horses"), Deut. 17:16
he shall not seek help from Egypt, Deut. 17:16
he shall not trust in political allegiances ("multiply wives"), Deut. 17:17
he shall not trust in wealth ("increase silver and gold"), Deut. 17:17
Numbers 4-7 reflect Solomon's abuses! It is unique in ANE law that the king has his powers limited, but in Israel God:
sets the place and procedures of justice
sets the pattern of worship
sets limits on kingly power, succession, and wealth
the king is one among many covenant partners (cf. Deut. 17:20)
the king must study regularly and implement (personally and officially) God's laws (cf. Deut. 17:18-19)

New Testament (from Ephesians 1)
Eph. 1:3 – "He chose us" is an AORIST MIDDLE INDICATIVE which emphasized the subject's decisive choice. This focused on the Father's choice before time. God's choice must not be understood in the Islamic sense of determinism nor in the ultra Calvinistic sense of "God chooses some versus God did not choose others," but in a covenantal sense. God promised to redeem fallen mankind (cf. Gen. 3:15). God called and chose Abraham to choose all humans. God Himself elected all persons who would exercise faith in Christ (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 4:42; 1 Tim. 2:4; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). God always takes the initiative in salvation (cf. John 6:44, 65), but humans must respond in repentance, faith, obedience, and perseverance. This text (Eph. 1:4) and Rom. 8:28-30; 9:1-33 are the main NT texts for the doctrine of predestination emphasized by Augustine and Calvin. God chose believers not only to salvation (justification) but also to sanctification (cf. Eph. 1:4; 2:8-10; Col. 1:12)! This could relate to
our position in Christ (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21)
God's desire to reproduce His character in His children (cf. Eph. 2:10; Rom. 8:28-29; Gal. 4:19; 1 Thess. 4:3)
God's will for His children is both heaven one day and Christlikeness now!
Eph. 1:4 – "that we should be holy and blameless before Him"
The goal of predestination is holiness, not privilege. God's call is not to a selected few of Adam's children, but to all! It is a call to be what God intended mankind to be, like Himself (cf. Rom. 8:28-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 4:13; 1 Thess. 4:7; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:15); in His image (cf. Gen. 1:26-27). To turn predestination into a theological tenet instead of a holy life is a tragedy. Often our a priori systematic theologies speak louder than biblical texts! The term "blameless" (amōmos) or "free from blemish" is used of
Jesus, (cf. Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 1:19)
Zacharias and Elizabeth, (cf. Luke 1:6)
Paul (cf. Phil 3:6)
all true Christians (cf. Phil. 2:15; 1 Thess. 3:13; 5:23)
God's unalterable will for every believer is not only heaven later, but Christlikeness now (cf. Rom. 8:29-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 1 Pet. 1:15). Believers are to reflect God's characteristics to a lost world for the purpose of evangelism.
SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH'S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN

SPECIAL TOPIC: ELECTION

SPECIAL TOPIC: PREDESTINATION

SPECIAL TOPIC: HE CHOSE US

HE CHOSE US -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

 

[Johann]

You've posted a lot of scripture but I don't know why unless you say why.

I believe the discussion with @Lambano is referring to the Ordo Salutis.
What comes first
Belief
or
Salvation

Will reply to him later on.

No problem.

J.

 

[Johann]

God chose us before he created anything. Our names are irrevocably in his book .

Did I say otherwise? Do take note only to those 'IN HIM"

Ephesians 1:4-5 (NIV): "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love, he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ."

J.

 

[Biblepaige]

Did I say otherwise? Do take note only to those 'IN HIM"

No need to be defensive. I merely added to your observations.

Ephesians 1:4-5 (NIV): "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love, he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ."

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

AGREE with your post on 'free will' and i am NOT a Calvinist and never read anything on or of him.

This does not negate that God chooses us BEFORE we ever decided to come to Him.

Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
Of His Own Will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. - James 1:16-18

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” - John 6:35-40

At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father.
Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light

David, you may not think you're a calvinist, but you are IF you agree with that particular doctrine.

But your post above has conflict.
First you said this:
This does not negate that God chooses us BEFORE we ever decided to come to Him.

So if God chose us before we ever decided to come to Him,
HOW does this confirm our having free will IF HE had to choose us?

THEN you stated this:
Of His Own Will He brought us forth by the word of truth,

Then you posted some scripture which, quite frankly, I don't know what it has to do with anything.

So which is it?
Did we come to believe in God of our own FREE WILL....
or
Did God choose us BEFORE we ever decided to come to Him?

 

[GodsGrace]

God chose us before he created anything. Our names are irrevocably in his book .

1. Show some verses that state that God chose us before He created anything.
2. Did you know that your name could be blotted out of the Book of Life?

Revelation 3:5
The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life.

The one who conquers will not be blotted out.
That means that a person CAN be blotted out.

Exodus 32:32
But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.”

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

God is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish...
which means that we can perish, in which case our name will surely be removed from the Book of Life.

 

[Johann]

David, you may not think you're a calvinist, but you are IF you agree with that particular doctrine.

But your post above has conflict.
First you said this:
This does not negate that God chooses us BEFORE we ever decided to come to Him.

So if God chose us before we ever decided to come to Him,
HOW does this confirm our having free will IF HE had to choose us?

THEN you stated this:
Of His Own Will He brought us forth by the word of truth,

Then you posted some scripture which, quite frankly, I don't know what it has to do with anything.

So which is it?
Did we come to believe in God of our own FREE WILL....
or
Did God choose us BEFORE we ever decided to come to Him?

Ora questo è interessante-vedremo come si evolverà.

Efesini 1:4: Secondo come ci ha scelti in lui prima della fondazione del mondo, affinché fossimo santi e irreprensibili davanti a lui nell'amore.

You ask good questions-and the answer is right in the Scriptures. To the late edit I would go with the last option and what about this portion?

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Shalom.

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

Short commentary.

What does it mean that God chose us before the foundation of the world?
This election is said to take place “before the foundation of the world” (cf. John 17:24; 1 Pet. 1:20). That is, God's choice in election occurred before time and creation, emphasizing that this choice was based on God's sovereign purpose, not human merits.

In other words, if God has effectively called you (which means that God has regenerated you and enabled you to repent and believe), then you are elect. If you are justified (which is a result of God-enabled faith), then you are elect. Your calling and justification are evidence of your election.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, no, no! I said (or meant) that the proclamation of the Gospel is a God-ordained means by which God brings his Elect to faith. The Gospel is proclaimed, God regenerates the Elect's heart to believe it, and when they believe it, they are justified by faith. The choosing itself was done "before the foundation of the world". See the difference between "Election" and "Justification"?

One of my textbooks says the test of whether you understand the point of contention is whether you can state the point of contention in terms that your opponent can agree with. I should ask the local Calvinists if they agree that I have stated their position accurately.

Good luck.
Not all calvinists agree with each other, which is why it's so difficult to discuss with them....
there are some nuances here that are so minute that one has to read very carefully what is stated.

Calvinists do not know why anyone is picked.
It's unconditional....so who can know what the conditions are?
There are none!

Some would agree with your post.
Most just say that we cannot know why....
which certainly does not agree with the NT which is full of the HOW to be saved.
The method is clear.

 

[Johann]

Short commentary.

What does it mean that God chose us before the foundation of the world?
This election is said to take place “before the foundation of the world” (cf. John 17:24; 1 Pet. 1:20). That is, God's choice in election occurred before time and creation, emphasizing that this choice was based on God's sovereign purpose, not human merits.

Looks like this short commentary could be helpful as it resonate with your spirit?

There is a lot to unpack exegetically-or would you say God chose some and not all? And who are the elect?

J.

 

[Johann]

Show some verses that state that God chose us before He created anything.

Very simple-

Ephesians 1:4-5 (NIV):
“For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love, He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will.”

Eph 1:4 For καθὼς He chose ἐξελέξατο us ἡμᾶς in ἐν Him αὐτῷ before πρὸ [the] foundation καταβολῆς of [the] world κόσμου, - ἡμᾶς to be εἶναι holy ἁγίους and καὶ blameless ἀμώμους in His presence κατενώπιον . . . . αὐτοῦ, In ἐν love ἀγάπῃ

Transliteration: pro
Morphology: Prep
Preposition
Strong's no.: G4253 (πρό)
Meaning: (a) of place: before, in front of, (b) of time: before, earlier than.


Even as he chose us in him (kathōs exelexato hēmās en autōi). First aorist middle indicative of eklegō, to pick out, to choose. Definitive statement of God’s elective grace concerning believers in Christ.
Before the foundation of the world (pro katabolēs kosmou). Old word from kataballō, to fling down, used of the deposit of seed, the laying of a foundation. This very phrase with pro in the Prayer of Jesus (Joh_17:24) of love of the Father toward the Son. It occurs also in 1Pe_1:20. Elsewhere we have apo (from) used with it (Mat_25:34; Luk_11:50; Heb_4:3; Heb_9:26; Rev_13:8; Rev_17:8). But Paul uses neither phrase elsewhere, though he has apo tōn aiōnōn (from the ages) in Eph_3:9. Here in Eph_1:3-14. Paul in summary fashion gives an outline of his view of God’s redemptive plans for the race.
Vincent.

hath chosen. or, chose out. Gr. eklegomai (S# G1586, Mar_13:20). There is a Scriptural predestination, but not to eternal destiny. Predestination is to holiness, righteousness, and true knowledge (Eph_4:24; Col_3:10). God’s sovereign choice from eternity was that His people be holy and blameless before Him. Be holy expresses the moral and spiritual state of being in the here and now—holy. Blameless is a negation of all that is blameworthy. So God’s choice from eternity was that there be a holy, blameless people in the image of His Son.

The Church thus participates in that Scriptural holiness predestinated from eternity (Cf. Rom_8:29-30; 2Pe_1:4 and notes) [LNT, fn a]. This is predestination of Divine exaltation, salvation, redemption, and restoration from the Fall, not the heartless decree of Calvinism, carried out by irresistible grace for the elect, and eternal damnation for all others (Rom_9:15 note) [LNT, fn a, retained from preliminary edition]. Deu_7:6-7; Deu_26:18-19, =2Ch_29:11, Psa_33:12; Psa_65:4; Psa_103:17; Psa_106:5; Psa_110:3; Psa_135:4, +*Isa_41:8; +*Isa_41:9; Isa_42:1; Isa_44:2; Isa_65:8-10, Zec_1:17, +*Mat_11:25; +*Mat_11:26; Mat_24:22; Mat_24:24; Mat_24:31, +*Joh_10:16; Joh_15:19; +*Joh_17:6, +*Act_13:48; Act_18:10, +*Rom_8:28; +*Rom_8:30; +*Rom_8:33; Rom_9:23-24; Rom_11:5-6; Rom_16:13, 1Th_1:4, *2Th_2:13; *2Th_2:14, +*2Ti_1:9; 2Ti_2:10, *Tit_1:1; *Tit_1:2, +*Jas_2:5, *1Pe_1:2; *1Pe_2:6; *1Pe_2:9, 2Jn_1:1, %Rev_13:8; %Rev_17:8.

This passage clearly states that God’s choosing of believers occurred before the creation of the world and was driven by His love and purpose.

2 Timothy 1:9 (NIV):
"He has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace.

1 Peter 1:20 (NIV):
"He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake."

Although this verse refers to Christ being chosen, it aligns with the theme that God’s redemptive work, through Christ, was set in motion before the foundation of the world.

Apology for the late edit-we all are doing it.

J.