graven image?

[epostle1]

Art is an expression, I never claimed "absolute truth" which can only be revealed by God. You have an inferiority complex because none of the Christian artists of the first 3 centuries were Protestants. In fact, art of any kind was strictly forbidden after John Calvin, and remains so to this day, except for statues of various Protestant dignitaries, which is sheer hypocrisy IMO.
The art treasures at the Vatican don't belong to the Vatican, they belong to humanity.
John Henry Cardinal Newman (1801-1890), the great English convert to Catholicism, who is widely regarded as one of the most profound religious thinkers of his time, wrote in his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine(1845), the one indispensable work on this subject:

One thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches . . . at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this. And Protestantism . . . as a whole, feels it, and has felt it. This is shown in the determination . . . of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone . . . To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.
​

Why do certain Protestants have fits when the Early Church Fathers are quoted?

Because history is their enemy. . This is shown in the determination . . . of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone .

To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.

Oldest known painting of Jesus on His mothers lap,
150 AD.
The Roman Catacombs are open to the public.​

 

[Truth]

Art is an expression, I never claimed "absolute truth" which can only be revealed by God. You have an inferiority complex because none of the Christian artists of the first 3 centuries were Protestants. In fact, art of any kind was strictly forbidden after John Calvin, and remains so to this day, except for statues of various Protestant dignitaries, which is sheer hypocrisy IMO.
The art treasures at the Vatican don't belong to the Vatican, they belong to humanity.
John Henry Cardinal Newman (1801-1890), the great English convert to Catholicism, who is widely regarded as one of the most profound religious thinkers of his time, wrote in his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine(1845), the one indispensable work on this subject:

One thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches . . . at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this. And Protestantism . . . as a whole, feels it, and has felt it. This is shown in the determination . . . of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone . . . To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.
​

Why do certain Protestants have fits when the Early Church Fathers are quoted?

Because history is their enemy. . This is shown in the determination . . . of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone .

To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.

Oldest known painting of Jesus on His mothers lap,
150 AD.
The Roman Catacombs are open to the public.​

My question is, Are you sure that this is Jesus on his mothers lap, where is the proof! Just saying.

 

[epostle1]

So you are an expert on Paleo-Christian art? You take the surrounding art into consideration? Just saying.

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog Can you answer this Mary in BOL's absence?

Tell me, whether from your opinion or from what you have been taught, what do you suppose took place immediately after Pentecost? Did a Christian church all of a sudden appear in Rome by some miracle and upon which God placed authority over all Christian churches worldwide? Because the Bible says otherwise. The Bible says that the Christian faith grew first in Palestine, then after a few years through Paul in particular, spread elsewhere.

Allow me to give you a little history lesson. It was in and around 35ad that Paul was converted. He then spent 3 years studying in the desert before returning to Jerusalem to preach to his fellow Jews. Having been rejected by them, he went to the gentiles. So did others, such as Peter and Philip. And Apollos. But most of the apostles started on and around Palestine. Jerusalem was where they held the first church council. A hearing to confirm Paul's ministry to the gentiles.

The First churches to be established were in Asia minor. Ephesus, Corinth, etc. Then in 70ad, before Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, all the Christians escaped to Perea and Antioch. It was in Antioch that they were first called Christians. Philip baptised that Ethiopian official remember? Well he went home and established an Ethiopian Christian church that survives to this day. Thomas went to India, and established the church in Goa. The"St Thomas Christians" as they are known, were renowned for mainly two things. Being persecuted by the inquisition because they refused to submit to papal authority, and for spreading the gospel into the far east. India, Assyria, Persia, Afghanistan, and China, all had large Christian communities without ANY reference or help from any Roman Bishop. The pope was not the head of those churches. Jesus was.

I gave BOL some time. You asked me to answer in his absence so here it goes: I see only two questions in your post so I will answer both of them:

Immediately after Pentecost a Christian church DID NOT all of a sudden appear in Rome by some miracle upon which God placed authority over all Christian churches worldwide. The Catholic Church does not claim that and I do not know of ANYONE who claims that.

Yes, I remember when Philip baptized the Ethiopian official in Acts 8.

Mary

 

[Triumph1300]

Here's real art. Just saying.

 

[Triumph1300]

I gave BOL some time.

It crossed my mind that BOL might not want to be associated with you.
I disagree with a lot of Roman Catholic doctrine, but I did notice that some comments made by BOL are dead on the mark.
And that's something that is missing in your posts.
So, crawling up to BOL as you have been trying to do, will not help you much in my opinion.
I think you'r on your own as far as that goes.
Happy Trolling, Marymag. ;-)

 

[Marymog]

It crossed my mind that BOL might not want to be associated with you.
I disagree wit a lot of Roman Catholic doctrine, but I did notice that some comments made by BOL are dead on the mark.
And that's something that is missing in your posts.
So, crawling up to BOL as you have been trying to do, will not help you much in my opinion.
I think you'r on your own as far as that goes.
Happy Trolling, Marymag. ;-)

Hi,

It crossed your mind? Really? Or maybe you just wanted to take another shot at Marymog in an effort to belittle her? Maybe @BreadOfLife could clear up those things that cross your mind???

Thank you for partially quoting me AGAIN. It shows your true character.

BOL and I repeat Catholic doctrine and quote the same Apostolic and Church Fathers sooooo I doubt that I am missing anything in my post...Thanks for your opinion though.

Let me get this straight. You praise BOL like I do but I am "crawling up" to him??? What does that mean you are doing???

Love, Mary

PS...Notice how I didn't partially quote you....;)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Here's real art. Just saying.
View attachment 2366

Sooooo, the paintings from Pricsilla's Catacomb in rome aren't "real" art??
According to whom, exactly??

 

[BreadOfLife]

It crossed my mind that BOL might not want to be associated with you.
I disagree with a lot of Roman Catholic doctrine, but I did notice that some comments made by BOL are dead on the mark.
And that's something that is missing in your posts.
So, crawling up to BOL as you have been trying to do, will not help you much in my opinion.
I think you'r on your own as far as that goes.
Happy Trolling, Marymag. ;-)

Actually - I DID respond to Brakelite's post (see post #114).

 

[Marymog]

Actually - I DID respond to Brakelite's post (see post #114).

I apologize BOL.

I scrolled thru all the recent post looking for the full narrative from @brakelite and your response to him. I didn't see it so I assumed you didn't answer.

Your response to him was more informative and based on scripture. Thank you.

Keep up the good fight.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

It crossed my mind that BOL might not want to be associated with you.
I disagree with a lot of Roman Catholic doctrine, but I did notice that some comments made by BOL are dead on the mark.
And that's something that is missing in your posts.
So, crawling up to BOL as you have been trying to do, will not help you much in my opinion.
I think you'r on your own as far as that goes.
Happy Trolling, Marymag. ;-)

A troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

You are a textbook example of that definition.

Mary

 

[epostle1]

A troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

You are a textbook example of that definition.

Mary

That same definition fits the thread title "Spotlight On The Disasterous RCC "Celibacy" Requirement". Trolling is a forum disease.

 

[Truth]

So you are an expert on Paleo-Christian art? You take the surrounding art into consideration? Just saying.

When did I claim to be an Expert, There are many paintings that have been discovered throughout the world, and Christianity is not the only religion that adores the mother and infant! The queen of heaven, Semiramis and son Tammuz, Babylonian sun deity, Devaki and Krishna, just to name two. I only ask by what documentation do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that that painting is Mary and Jesus.

 

[Triumph1300]

Some artists create better artwork than others.
But that opinion of course is based on taste.
Never the less nobody can argue about the early masters.
There are no modern painters matching them.

 

[epostle1]

When did I claim to be an Expert, There are many paintings that have been discovered throughout the world, and Christianity is not the only religion that adores the mother and infant! The queen of heaven, Semiramis and son Tammuz, Babylonian sun deity, Devaki and Krishna, just to name two. I only ask by what documentation do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that that painting is Mary and Jesus.

I don't have documentation, at least not right away. But I accept its authenticity based on its location. Babylonians and Hindus did not hide from the Romans in the catacombs, do you have documentation they did? No, wait...

The earliest surviving Christian art is preserved on the walls of tombs belonging to wealthy Christians in the catacombs of Rome. From literary evidence there may also have been panel icons. However, like almost all paintings from classical times, these have disappeared. The earliest known image of the Virgin Mary independent of the Magi episode , is a fresco dated about 150 CE in the Catacomb of Priscilla on the Via Salaria in Rome that shows her nursing the infant Jesus on her lap.

"Initially Jesus was represented indirectly by pictogram symbols such as the Ichthys (fish), the peacock, or an anchor (the Labarum or Chi-Rho was a later development). Later personified symbols were used, including Jonah, whose three days in the belly of the whale pre-figured the interval between Christ's death and Resurrection; Daniel in the lion's den; or Orpheus charming the animals. The Tomb of the Julii has a famous but unique mosaic of Christ as Sol Invictus, a sun-god. The image of "The Good Shepherd", a beardless youth in pastoral scenes collecting sheep, was the commonest of these images, and was probably not understood as a portrait of the historical Jesus at this period. It continues the classical Kriophoros , and in some cases may also represent the Shepherd of Hermas , a popular Christian literary work of the 2nd century.

"Among the earliest depictions clearly intended to directly represent Jesus himself are many showing him as a baby, usually held by his mother, especially in the Adoration of the Magi, seen as the first theophany, or display of the incarnate Christ to the world at large" (Wikipedia article on Depiction of Jesus, accessed 10-03-2010).

Situated in what was a quarry in Roman times, the Catacombs of Priscilla were used for underground Christian burials from the late second century through the fourth century. The catacombs extend for roughly 13 kilometers on several levels.

"Some of the walls and ceilings display fine decorations illustrating Biblical scenes. The Catacombs of Priscilla are believed to be named after Priscilla, a member of the gens Acilia and who was probably the wife of the Consul Acilius who became a Christian and was killed on the orders of Domitian . They contain a number of wall paintings of saints and early Christian symbols. Particularly notable is the 'Greek Chapel' (Capella Greca), a square chamber with an arch which contains second century frescoes generally interpreted to be Old and New Testament scenes, including the Fractio Panis . Above the apse is a Last Judgment. New, and somewhat controversial research has begun to suggest that the scenes traditionally interpreted as the deuterocanonical story of Susannah (Dn 13) may actually be scenes from the life of a prestigious Christian woman of the second century AD. Near this are figures of the Madonna and Child and the Prophet Isaiah, also dating from the second century" (Wikipedia article on Catacomb of Priscilla, accessed 10-02-2010).
The Earliest Known Image of the Virgin Mary (Circa 150 CE) : HistoryofInformation.com

see also
8 of the Oldest Images of the Blessed Virgin Mary | ChurchPOP

see also
The catacombs of St. Callixtus. Salesian Istitute S.t Callixtus, Rome. The christian catacombs of Rome - Le Catacombe di San Callisto

Let me know if you need more documentation.

 

[Truth]

I don't have documentation, at least not right away. But I accept its authenticity based on its location. Babylonians and Hindus did not hide from the Romans in the catacombs, do you have documentation they did? No, wait...

The earliest surviving Christian art is preserved on the walls of tombs belonging to wealthy Christians in the catacombs of Rome. From literary evidence there may also have been panel icons. However, like almost all paintings from classical times, these have disappeared. The earliest known image of the Virgin Mary independent of the Magi episode , is a fresco dated about 150 CE in the Catacomb of Priscilla on the Via Salaria in Rome that shows her nursing the infant Jesus on her lap.

"Initially Jesus was represented indirectly by pictogram symbols such as the Ichthys (fish), the peacock, or an anchor (the Labarum or Chi-Rho was a later development). Later personified symbols were used, including Jonah, whose three days in the belly of the whale pre-figured the interval between Christ's death and Resurrection; Daniel in the lion's den; or Orpheus charming the animals. The Tomb of the Julii has a famous but unique mosaic of Christ as Sol Invictus, a sun-god. The image of "The Good Shepherd", a beardless youth in pastoral scenes collecting sheep, was the commonest of these images, and was probably not understood as a portrait of the historical Jesus at this period. It continues the classical Kriophoros , and in some cases may also represent the Shepherd of Hermas , a popular Christian literary work of the 2nd century.

"Among the earliest depictions clearly intended to directly represent Jesus himself are many showing him as a baby, usually held by his mother, especially in the Adoration of the Magi, seen as the first theophany, or display of the incarnate Christ to the world at large" (Wikipedia article on Depiction of Jesus, accessed 10-03-2010).

Situated in what was a quarry in Roman times, the Catacombs of Priscilla were used for underground Christian burials from the late second century through the fourth century. The catacombs extend for roughly 13 kilometers on several levels.

"Some of the walls and ceilings display fine decorations illustrating Biblical scenes. The Catacombs of Priscilla are believed to be named after Priscilla, a member of the gens Acilia and who was probably the wife of the Consul Acilius who became a Christian and was killed on the orders of Domitian . They contain a number of wall paintings of saints and early Christian symbols. Particularly notable is the 'Greek Chapel' (Capella Greca), a square chamber with an arch which contains second century frescoes generally interpreted to be Old and New Testament scenes, including the Fractio Panis . Above the apse is a Last Judgment. New, and somewhat controversial research has begun to suggest that the scenes traditionally interpreted as the deuterocanonical story of Susannah (Dn 13) may actually be scenes from the life of a prestigious Christian woman of the second century AD. Near this are figures of the Madonna and Child and the Prophet Isaiah, also dating from the second century" (Wikipedia article on Catacomb of Priscilla, accessed 10-02-2010).
The Earliest Known Image of the Virgin Mary (Circa 150 CE) : HistoryofInformation.com

see also
8 of the Oldest Images of the Blessed Virgin Mary | ChurchPOP

see also
The catacombs of St. Callixtus. Salesian Istitute S.t Callixtus, Rome. The christian catacombs of Rome - Le Catacombe di San Callisto

Let me know if you need more documentation.

I did enjoy your response, I will refer to the links you posted, Question asked, question answered, now that wasn't so tough was it. Thanks