Prove to me that I've denied the eternal fire. You bear false witness against me.
A story is also called a narrative and this word is splashed all over these forums
To God Be The Glory
Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.
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Prove to me that I've denied the eternal fire. You bear false witness against me.
A story is also called a narrative and this word is splashed all over these forums
To God Be The Glory
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You asked. So is there a good reason for being a Calvinist? Or is it a complex? Do you want to be disliked? Do you find it exhilarating to be a blasphemer?
I once asked a mortician with all the professions to pick from, why did he pick to be a mortician. Ya know, can you believe he took offense to that question.
With a smorgasbord of Protestant religions, what was in you that attracted you to a religion that makes the movie "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers" look like a kiddy show.
So tell us, do you believe the wicked will be "tormented day and night forever and ever" as the Bible says? Don't you believe in destruction, not eternal torment? Don't you side with JW's?
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Sorry I don't recall asking. I don't mind it a bit though. God told the true believers that they will be hated by sinners and scoffers.
Sorry I am NOT a mortician. Lol
Sounds like a movie by Satan. I don't watch those.
To God Be The Glory
The wages of sin is death! Death means dead. Do you know of anyone who is dead that is living today? No! A dead person has no life in him, in and of himself. A dead person no longer exist!
How great a God I serve that even in the death of the wicked He has mercy on them by NOT punishing them eternally but by them not existing any longer.
The term "eternal torment" is merely a condition! A condition of none existence ever more.
To God Be The Glory
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I don't recall asking you. I'm not surprise for being disliked / hated. Jesus warned me that there will be those who will hate me.
I'm not a mortician. Lol
Sorry I don't watch movies that are satanic in nature.
To God Be The Glory
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Stop putting labels on people when yourself do NOT understand the things of God!
You accuse me of being a Calvinist and now a JW. Don't you have other things to do?
To God Be The Glory
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Iconoclast
Active Member
Natural men CANNOT understand the things of God.
Those who scoff and ridicule truth identify the Kingdom of darkness like those in2 pet3.
Death does not mean "cease to exist". You totally evade Scripture.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
No you don't.
Yes I do.
And my advice is that you do not unless it makes sense in the practical and when you put it in motion.
We are talking about what makes sense to God in His Spirit and the eternal things of the Spirit. Not what makes sense to our own minds, that is but a puff of smoke. The spiritual compares things to the eternal things of the kingdom of God that is not seen with eyes of flesh, and they are more real and enduring, than the carnal mind comparing things to our own world and experience, which can be blind to the things of the Spirit.
When Hebrews says the law is changed of necessity with the priesthood, then I take it literally to mean that the law of God by Moses was changed to that of Christ, even as the Levitical priesthood was changed to that of Jesus and His saints. Many don't want to be so literal, because they want certain of Moses and the old covenant to remain in place, for such things as circumcision of the flesh and Sabbath-keeping by commandment.
When Romans says there is no Jew that is outward, and no circumcision that is in the flesh, I take that literal to mean that there are no more outward Jews on earth, and all born of flesh are born into uncircumcision, all nations alike, including the one still calling itself Israel after the flesh. Many don't like that so literally read and concluded, because they like a physical seed of promise to be on earth, so that they can keep their learned prophecies intact that require it.
The woman clothed in the Sun is not literal, because Scripture calls her a wonder, even as the dragon is not a literal dragon, and Babylon the Great is a not a literal woman riding upon a scarlet beast, because Scripture calls her a mystery.
It would be a good discussion but Adam and Eve were not under the Mosaic Law.
The law of sin and death began when God made the 1st commandment and law defining transgression as eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That law of sin and death remains, in which we are alive to God, when dead to sin, and become dead to God by sin, who's wages is death.
When the eyes of Adam and Eve were both opened to sin and shame by transgression, they died to God. They were no longer living souls, even as their seed by flesh are born in sin and dead to God: not souls. By flesh we are born as souls alive to sin and flesh, but not living souls alive to God and His righteousness.
A living soul is alive to God with eternal life by the Spirit of God. Souls abiding in sin are dead to God, though they have continued existence beyond the grave.
We are all sons of God in sense but Adam was a created being.
Once again, this 'in sense' is a rationale of the mind, not the true sense of Scripture: They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
We are all creatures created by God in His image physically, but we are not all children and sons of God created in Christ unto good works:
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
In things pertaining to truth of God and eternity of the spiritual things of life, I do not use my own reasoning, but speak and give my sense of Scripture only.
Changes in the blood is not really something that could be specifically defined in the Bible....analogies aside, their not going to get into the DNA.
Scripture plainly states that the life is in the blood. And the eternal life of God is breathed into a soul, in which it becomes a living soul by that life within the blood. Scripture states Jesus is the 2nd Adam, and the only man on earth to ever be born after the Spirit as was the 1st Adam, and His blood is called after His resurrection incorruptible.
And since Adam died to God by transgression, no longer having the life of God in his soul, then his blood was no longer pure, but corrupted as is the seed and flesh born of that one corrupted blood (Acts 17). And so, I have made a sensible argument, that the 1st Adam's blood was uncorrupted by sin at birth, being born with the Spirit breathed into Him, and the 2nd Adam came from heaven with uncorrupted blood by the Spirit overshadowing the woman.
The 1st Adam transgressed and corrupted himself and his blood, and died to God, and the 2nd Adam did not sin, nor corrupt Himself, but is resurrected with incorruptible blood forever, which blood He commands us to drink indeed, that we may have life in us: His eternal life in His blood.
Ding ding! Right on!
And so we agree in the first principles of Christ, which are all that matter, and we disagree in the understanding of some spiritual things of Scripture, which really don't matter, except as a matter rational dispute:
The former renew the mind in Christ with great profit, and the latter exercise the mind in Scriptural things, with a little profit. Sort of like godliness is profitable in all things, whily bodily exercise profiteth little.
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Actually, the "in you" was the Philippians. The good work He started in them was their partnership with Paul in his ministry.
Actually, it does. There's nothing in this passage that says they were dead. Also, forever and ever is a poor translation of αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων". A better translation is ages of ages. However, that too is a figure of speech.
I don't think you're qualified to rewrite our Bible. Even the JW's NWT says you're wrong.
Well, firstly, you don't know me. So, you don't know what I'm qualified for. Secondly, I'm not rewriting anything. I'm simply telling you what the Greek text means. But if you'd prefer to look silly in front of everyone have at it.
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
(Rev. 20:10 YLT)
You're trying to rewrite our Bible. Please give your qualifications or STOP! Just because Kingdom Hall tells you that you're a Greek expert, don't believe everything they say.
Yes you are!
So you're right and our English Bibles are wrong? What are your qualifications? You haven't given any yet.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (CJB)
10 and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (ASV)
10 and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (CSBBible)
10 and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (CEB)
10 There painful suffering will be inflicted upon them day and night, forever and always.
Revelation 20:10 (DRV)
10 And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (ESV)
10 and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NCV)
10 There they will be punished day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NIV)
10 They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NRSV)
10 and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (RSV)
10 they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (TEV)
10 and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (Webster's Bible)
10 and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (ETRV)
10 There they would be tortured day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (GW)
10 will be tortured day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (ICB)
10 There they will be punished day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (KJV)
10 and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (MLB)
10 they will be tortured day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NET1)
10 and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NASB77)
10 they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NIV2011)
10 They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (AMP)
10 and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (through the ages of the ages).
Revelation 20:10 (BBE)
10 and their punishment will go on day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (CEV)
10 and they will be in pain day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (GenevaBible)
10 and shall be tormented even day and night for evermore.
Revelation 20:10 (HCSB)
10 and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NJB)
10 and their torture will not come to an end, day or night, for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NLT2)
10 There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (TLB)
10 and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (MontgomeryNT)
10 And they will be tortured day and night, forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (MaceNT)
10 and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (MOFF)
10 to be tortured day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (WesleyNT)
10 and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I notice you didn't post YLT. But it doesn't matter if you have 10,000 English translations. Jesus said the aion would end. Thus aion is not eternal or forever. But, I'll bet you'll choose your translations over what Jesus said.
Jesus,
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb. 9:26 KJV) world; and the reapers are the angels. (Matt. 13:39 KJV)
The apostle,
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Matt. 24:3 KJV)
Paul,
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb. 9:26 KJV)
OK, now tell me how Jesus, the apostles, and Paul are all wrong and your English translators are right. In each of these passages it is the same word found in Rev. 20:10. Jesus and the apostles say it ends. Something eternal doesn't end and something that ends isn't eternal or forever.
Guess you never heard of the EVERLASTING FIRE that Jesus taught. You will. Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.
So, you just ignored it all, huh? Jesus, the apostles, and Paul all say it ends. And, it's the same word here. If it can't mean eternal or everlasting there, it can't here either.
You found one Bible translation that's different to try to disprove all the others, and the translation you found still doesn't deny eternal punishment. Give it up. You're not qualified to rewrite our Bible!
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