Wow. I'm... not sure what spurred that question. Well, okay, I'd be glad to, but ~ certainly not to offend you or anything like that ~ I first want to hear how you would answer that.
Grace and peace to you, Cooper.
Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.
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Grace and peace to you, Cooper.
Ah! Dude. That's a great comeback. :)
I lean on God's Word, of course. But I do think John Calvin (and Augustine centuries before him) ~ again, for the most part, as no mere man (or woman) is perfect in his or her understanding of anything ~ understood God's Word correctly.
Having said that, though, many people lean on the understanding of Jacobus Arminius (and Pelagius centuries before him)... and possibly don't even know it.
Grace and peace to you.
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Well the fate of backsliders can be a couple of different things, really, depending on what the state of their heart actually is. As Jeremiah says:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
So to what you're saying here, I would say those people may have thought they believed, but were never really believers in the first place. True belief in Christ is a matter of the heart and whether one is truly reborn of the Spirit, and thus of God, or not. As John says regarding people who would fall into this category:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." (1 John 2:19)
Or they may just be straying for a time, in which case God, by His Spirit, will bring them back. If God began a good work in someone, He will bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).
Grace and peace to you, Cooper.
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Amen... nor any other man alone. May we always trust even one like unto Paul who was Saul a persecutor of God's people? What man on this forum is always trustworthy? Not me certainly or probably not even @Not me! Sorry @Not me I could not resist!
We may become more confident in a person in whom we have seen the right Spirit and the right direction... but be careful even with them. Who is already an overcomer like Jesus who never makes any mistakes at all? Perhaps they exist, but me being admittedly still flawed how would I be able to recognize them?
By their fruits? Really?
How good is our hearing?
How good is our vision?
We may be ignorant in many things, but if we are always leaning on Him how can we ultimately err?
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Cooper
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They never believed, is the standard excuse of Calvinists. Point is, it is impossible to fall into unbelief if you have never believed.
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Cooper
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Adam was turned out of the Garden because he disobeyed God. Simple. No eternal security there. So be warned. God is not to be mocked. We worship a righteous God, and there cannot be any unrighteousness in His presence. We are saved by the Grace of God, and there it ends. He will forgive the penitent sinner, but after salvation it is our responsibility and duty to live a life that is pleasing to Him, and more than that, to live a life that brings honour and glory to His name. We are His witnesses, a light in a world of darkness and people watch us. If we do the same as Adam did, our end will be the same as his.
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amigo de christo
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Test ALL MEN . Trust ONLY IN GOD .
GOD cannot lie . But any man can and any man can mess things up . TRUST ONLY IN GOD .
Ye shall know them by their fruits . I have found this a very SOLID TRUTH .
My sheep HEAR MY VOICE . I have found that A SOLID TRUTH .
And HE has kept me safe from the whims of men and their precepts of doctrines which have led many astray .
JESUS TRULY DOES SPEAK TO HIS SHEEP . HIS VOICE IS TRUTH .
amigo de christo
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All men are ignorant of things . BUT NOT GOD . HE is faithful to keep HIS SHEEP . While a lamb will surely not know all ,
A LAMB KNOWS HE CAN TRUST ONLY IN THE ONE WHO DOES KNOW ALL .
And a lamb will not stray from the pure green pastures of biblical TRUTH which IS INSPIRED BY GOD .
Lambs who have had their senses exercised , Must do all by the SPIRIT to exhort the church .
We have us a battle . And its not new . It has raged since the days of the church . BUT IT HAS GROWN FAR DARKER and MUCH WORSE
in these last and final days upon this earth .
Satan has not been sleeping . HE has infiltrated the leaders of so many churches , i could never be able to number that number
who is now INFECTED with satan . AND I MEAN ALL OUT INFECTED. MANY follow the voice of the stranger and not of the SHEPARD.
And i mean full out allegiance unto the dragon . I am not talking about simple small errors . I MEAN they pledge allegaince
to the devil himself . ONLY THEY THINK IS GOD . Satan can use the name of JESUS , just as does his ministirs .
MANY and i mean many are not gonna make it . ALL one can do is continually exhort and remind of the pure truth found in that bible .
POINT to that JESUS and not another jesus . POINT to that LOVE and not this other love .
POINT to that UNITY and not this other unity . POINT to that FREEDOM and not this other freedom .
POINT to that liberty and not this other liberty . The call has been , GO BACK TO BIBLES , SUBMIT TO GOD , RESIST the Devil
and HE WILL FLEE . BUT most are NOT HEEDING the simple message .
amigo de christo
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I have read the teachings of augustine . And i seen deadly dangers in it as well .
YES he had lots of truths too , but beware .
We need to just return to our bibles and get well in love with that book .
Call it what you want, but Calvinist or no, it's right there in 2 John 2:19. Of people who thought they were believers and were with believers previously, John says:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
This was not an original thought propagated by John Calvin or anyone who has come after. It's God's Word, given to us through John.
Very true, but the issue is truly believing. People can think they believe something from the heart but come to realize, later, that that is not the case, because, as Jeremiah (17:9) says:
"The heart is deceitful above all things..."
Grace and peace to you.
Not me
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No worries, knowing that only to the degree I reckon myself dead unto sin and alive unto God in real time, to that degree and to that degree alone, is the new creation manifested..
May today I reckon myself dead more than yesterday and tomorrow more still..
Be blessed in the growing in Him…
A fellow believer, Not me
Sure he was. I agree. But that's... not all. :)
Well, right, but really, that's not all. Do you not think Adam repented and believed?
Sure, but I think we disagree on Adam's end really was, and will be. Please allow me to explain:
Adam disobeyed and sinned, for sure, and got what God warned him he would get. But after this ~ from Genesis 3:8 on ~ Adam was repentant; he knew what he had done was wrong. And, although I'm sure he fell short of perfection (as we all do), feared and loved and obeyed God from that point forward. Eve certainly knew God as evidenced in her statement in Genesis 4:1, where, having conceived and borne Cain, she says, “I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.”
There's actually a promise to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3, and that is that she and he will both have to endure hardship in this life ~ in a fallen world ~ but it will not last forever, but only for a short time (their earthly lives).
At the very least, we see in Hebrews 11 that Abel was given faith, and in Romans 10:17, Paul tells us that faith comes by hearing. So, who do you think Abel heard the truth about God and His Gospel (which was first revealed to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15) from? Well, I guess I just answered that question myself... :) I think we'll see both Adam and Eve in the new heavens and new earth. :)
Grace and peace to you.
Cooper
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There were two angels making sure he did not get back in. I'm not going to argue about error for ever-and-a-day. Go to the fourth line of my signature and read the verses in Isaiah and Exodus. There is much more, but the message is the same.
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Sure, in his earthly life.
Not sure what that means. Argue about error?
Oh, I know the verses well. Is the message, in your opinion, that whoever sins at all can never be heard by God again and that he or she is forever blotted from God's book?
Grace and peace to you.
Cooper
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Like the Prodigal Son, we will be welcomed back with open arms. I'm talking about those who once knew the Father but returned to their old licentious life-style never to return. The backslider.
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Okay, very good. Well, so again, I say that if they "returned to their old licentious life-style never to return," they never truly knew ~ believed and loved ~ the Father, but perhaps only thought they did for a time... because, perhaps, they didn't really know themselves or their own heart. Again:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." (2 John 2:19)
and:
"The heart is deceitful above all things..." (Jeremiah 17:9)
We can just agree to disagree. Grace and peace to you.
Cooper
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Rubbish.
(2Pe 2:20-21) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(2Pe 3:17) Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
(Eze 18:24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
(Eze 3:20-21) Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
(Gal 1:6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
(Gal 4:9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
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As I said, we can agree to disagree. None of the passages you have cited refute what I have said; they actually support my statements. And those passages most certainly don't conflict with the passages I have cited (2 John 2:19, Jeremiah 17:9).
Grace and peace to you.
[Romans 3:10 NKJV]
As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
… all of the pots are faulty; that’s why Jesus came to save “whosoever” (John 3)
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