GracePeace
Well-Known Member
Again there's no proof it's parsed that way. Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7 are clear.
Good Works Vs Works Of The Law
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What do think about Romans 7:4
So that, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of the Christ, for your becoming another's, who out of the dead was raised up, that we might bear fruit to God;
What do you believe Paul is talking about when he says Brother, you were made dead to the law?
through the body of the Christ, ~ for your becoming another's? Dying to the law, and being married to Christ instead?
Christ who was out of the dead, was raised up, that as believers we might bear fruit to God.
So that, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of the Christ, for your becoming another's, who out of the dead was raised up, that we might bear fruit to God;
What do you believe Paul is talking about when he says Brother, you were made dead to the law?
through the body of the Christ, ~ for your becoming another's? Dying to the law, and being married to Christ instead?
Christ who was out of the dead, was raised up, that as believers we might bear fruit to God.
This is a good verse, and it is dismissed too easily by those who say we are "no longer under law." We are still required to keep the commandments if we would inherit eternal life. The difference is that with the commencement of the New Covenant, it was soon understood that the Jewish ceremonial laws were merely shadows of coming things, and no longer binding on Christians. The two greatest commandments most certainly still are, and I don't agree with the argument that we can still get to Heaven by leading a life that breaks those two commandments that encompassed the OT non-ceremonial law. Nor perfectly, for God has already clearly accounted for our failings through the cross, but I life of willful disregard for obeying the two greatest commandments demonstrates not having made Him Lord yet still expecting Him to be Savior. It doesn't work that way, not in the Kingdom of God.
Greetings, Mailman.
You'd have to run this one by me again. I'm having a rough time understanding how a passage the specifically references eternal life cannot be about salvation. Explain what you mean there again.
6 But let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teaches in all good things. 7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that sows unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not be weary in well-doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us work that which is good toward all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith.
I agree with the above statement. Moral aspects of the law, i.e. good works, cannot and should not be dissected or separated from the two greatest commandments.
Correct. I also do not believe in OSAS. I think where you and I differ is on what we include as "works of the law." I believe he's referring strictly to ceremonial law, whereas I think you are applying more to it than that.
Aha. I think I'm getting closer to understanding you (but not quite there yet. Give me time, LoL).
Romans 3 is still clearly about ceremonial law, since he begins the Chapter discussing circumcision:
1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.” 5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? 7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Correct me if I am wrong here, however. This is a discussion not an argument, and I'm listening.
The way I read things, you can't subdivide the Law. James says if you break one you've broken all, being a Lawbreaker. It's as if the Law were a single commandment, keep it and live.
Much love!
I believe that believer are suppose to die to the Law - and die to Sin.
According to what the bible presents forth in its contents.
The Law itself the Mosaic law - is good, and there is nothing wrong with it at all. The thing is no human has ever been able to hold on to it perfectly. God knew this, and that he had a plan for to send someone along the way to fulfill this law, which can break a person down.
The law is this is it not? - Love God with all your mind, heart, soul, Love your neighbor as yourself - then their are other laws too in that Mosaic law, that Jesus Christ brings for to fruition during his ministry walk. He always brought forth what comes from the heart;
All of these things can be learned from the Law (unless am wrong) ~ And No one here on this planet has be able to keep any of these commandments in their life time.
God sent Jesus Christ who came to fulfilled the law, and to fulfill what was prophesied of His coming. Some people do not believe that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the law today in this life; but it something I believe has happened.
If Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, and Paul explains to Christians that we are suppose to die to the Law; (Using the Law as a demanding thing) - putting it to death (as a reminder of the things which were not able to do as a human because we broke the law ) - and moving forward into living by the spirit oppose to the Law. The Law brings forth spiritual death, where living by the Spirit, and trusting God, and Jesus Christ, the spirit brings forth fruits of love. Which is the Christians purpose is to have fruits of Love, by the spirit in this day in age -
Which is caused by the renewing of the mind and the heart by God and Jesus through reading and seeking the truth.
According to what the bible presents forth in its contents.
The Law itself the Mosaic law - is good, and there is nothing wrong with it at all. The thing is no human has ever been able to hold on to it perfectly. God knew this, and that he had a plan for to send someone along the way to fulfill this law, which can break a person down.
The law is this is it not? - Love God with all your mind, heart, soul, Love your neighbor as yourself - then their are other laws too in that Mosaic law, that Jesus Christ brings for to fruition during his ministry walk. He always brought forth what comes from the heart;
20He continued: “What comes out of a man, that is what defiles him. 21For from within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,j 22greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. 23All these evils come from within, and these are what defile a man.”
All of these things can be learned from the Law (unless am wrong) ~ And No one here on this planet has be able to keep any of these commandments in their life time.
God sent Jesus Christ who came to fulfilled the law, and to fulfill what was prophesied of His coming. Some people do not believe that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the law today in this life; but it something I believe has happened.
If Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, and Paul explains to Christians that we are suppose to die to the Law; (Using the Law as a demanding thing) - putting it to death (as a reminder of the things which were not able to do as a human because we broke the law ) - and moving forward into living by the spirit oppose to the Law. The Law brings forth spiritual death, where living by the Spirit, and trusting God, and Jesus Christ, the spirit brings forth fruits of love. Which is the Christians purpose is to have fruits of Love, by the spirit in this day in age -
Which is caused by the renewing of the mind and the heart by God and Jesus through reading and seeking the truth.
My apologies, John. I've noticed that quoting long passages has a way of putting people off, LoL. But in your case I'm guessing the small print doesn't help.
Greetings, Kcnalp.
The context of "the works of the law" in Galatians 3 goes back to Galatians 2, where he was again discussing ceremonial law, circumcision in particular, and the sin of Peter drawing back from the Gentiles when those of the circumcision arrived.
2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Sorry, but we were discussing the means of salvation in the context of "good works vs works of the law."
It's not our evil works that condemn us, because we stand condemned by our fallen nature, creatures of wrath, and citizens (if you will) of the kingdom of darkness, until we are delivered through the gospel. The condemnation is in rejecting the light.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19
It always comes down to the question "Do you love God?"
I used to enjoy talking with a Jewish coworker, who though he wasn't orthodox and married a gentile, was very confident in his relationship to Abraham and thereby to God. He disregarded Christian doctrine because of his confidence in 5000 years of rabbinical scholarship, but that was one question he didn't have an answer for. How can you love someone that you don't know?
Faithful Jews practice good works and those good works originate with God by the Jewish understanding of scripture. Without scripture to define "good" and "law" they wouldn't know what to do that could be called good, even if those works are defiled by the fleshly nature. The hindu perform good works to enhance their "karma" for a better reincarnation. The Buddhists do good works to help achieve enlightenment ( their version of godhood. ) The ancient Egyptians did good works to balance the cosmic scales of divine judgment. The accursed Free Masons do good works to advance up the stairs to the knowledge of their Grand Architect. It's a common carnal theme in many religions and by carnal I mean worldly or fleshly thinking, not a spiritual state, but a mental one. The closest false religion to approach spiritual truth that I've encountered is Taoism. It's based upon observations of the natural (fallen) world, and you can see some aspects of the truth in it, but it misses Jesus as the Way. The Tao, translated as the way, is called unknowable and indescribable, and consequently Taoist writings are quite obscure and mystical, but it is true that God can't be known except by His own Revelation and trying to understand Him just by His creation can only lead to error when that creation is under a curse and not functioning as it did at its inception. You might ask, what's my point? God is not impressed by our good works.
But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away. Isaiah 64:5-7
I don't know the original languages but I've heard that the filthy rags in the text literally refers to menstrual cloth, not just dirty but ritually unclean, defiling by even contact. So in sanctification are we tacking on menstrual cloths to our salvation, or is God doing good and perfect works through us and in us? Good works are an evidence of salvation but in no way contribute to them. Death bed "conversions" are extremely rare, but isn't that what occurred with the repentant thief on the cross. No one works when they're dead (or asleep,) but I would agree that the doing of good works by the guidance of the Holy Spirit is meat for the Christian. Christ did said that doing the Father's will was His food, so why wouldn't that be true of His body?
Hello there, Grace Ambassador, and sorry about the late reply.
I read through your post but I can only comment on those statements where scriptures are referenced, since this is what we have to base our determinations on. So I will at least deal with the ones you made reference to scripture on.
Good passage! Let me quote it again in a slightly wider context:
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men... 14 And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful. (Titus 3:1-8, 14)
Ok, now. This is one of the more difficult passages to deal with, so I am going to quote the Greek here.
ἵνα δικαιωθέντες τῇ ἐκείνου χάριτι κληρονόμοι γενηθῶμεν κατ' ἐλπίδα ζωῆς αἰωνίου. = "that having been justified by that grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
Now, if we have already attained to salvation through faith and that salvation is guaranteed, the future tense that is inherent in this last phrase would be unnecessary. There would be no need to hope for eternal life if it was already certain. This is why translators here often translate the aorist subjunctive middle as "we should become heirs." It is still contingent upon something, and that in this context is maintaining good works.
Be blessed as well, and thank you for the courteous post.
- H
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
"Knowledge of sin" the Jew possesses is contrasted (as "sin like Adam"--transgression) against the sin of the Gentiles. Don't tell me the Gentiles were only guilty of not being circumcised. Lol
"Works of Law" apparently means what it sounds like : "good stuff Law tells you to do".
Ok. :)
Let's leave Wright out of it then, LoL (just having some fun
). But between you and I, I think this is where we've been meaning to get to:I understand your position, but I think you have transferred Romans 3:20 all the way over into Romans 7:7, when I personally think the context has changed. By Chapter 7 he is addressing the law in a positive sense, referring to the good works commanded by the law. Hence in v. 22 he says, "For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man." This is not something he would say of ceremonial law or circumcision, for in speaking of circumcision in Chapter 3 he says, "Therefore by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
It's partly my fault. Responding to people 2 and 3 days later certainly can't help. But give me a rely to the above. I think it is at the heart of our disagreement, and God bless. Good discussion!
Sorry. Working my way back. One of those subjects that runs like a jackrabbit, and I've been busy with PM ministry lately.
Boy would he be a popular guy, Lol.
Me too. And actually, as they go I'd say this thread has been mild mannered... or maybe I'm just becoming desensitized, Lol.
A kindred spirit!
As is the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant (Matthew 18:21-35), which presents all kinds of problems for the opposition, and usually forces them to say things like, "Well you can't take the parables too literally."
Good seeing you on the thread, brother. Been too long since we interacted.
- H
Almost caught up, and this is where I'm up to now, so I'll post it here and get back to you. Gotta take another break.
Peace! And good having you on the forum!
- H
Romans 4:1-17 LITV
1) What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
2) For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God. (Not works of Law, as the Law was not yet given.)
3) For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
4) Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt. (again, works, but not of Law)
5) But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6) Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: (Abraham still)
7) "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8) blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin."
9) Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness."
10) How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!
11) And he received a sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness of faith while in uncircumcision, for him to be a father of those believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be counted to them also,
12) and a father of circumcision to those not of circumcision only, but also to those walking in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham during uncircumcision.
13) For the promise was not through Law to Abraham, or to his seed, for him to be the heir of the world, but through a righteousness of faith.
14) For if those of Law are heirs, faith has been made of no effect, and the promise has been annulled.
15) For the Law works out wrath; for where no law is, neither is transgression.
16) On account of this, it is of faith, that it be according to grace, for the promise to be certain to all the seed, not to that of the Law only, but also to that of the faith of Abraham, who is father of us all,
17) according as it has been written, "I have appointed you a father of many nations;" before God, whom he believed, the One making the dead live, and calling the things that are not as if they were.
Not by works of any kind.
Much love!
1) What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
2) For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God. (Not works of Law, as the Law was not yet given.)
3) For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
4) Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt. (again, works, but not of Law)
5) But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6) Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: (Abraham still)
7) "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8) blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin."
9) Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness."
10) How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!
11) And he received a sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness of faith while in uncircumcision, for him to be a father of those believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be counted to them also,
12) and a father of circumcision to those not of circumcision only, but also to those walking in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham during uncircumcision.
13) For the promise was not through Law to Abraham, or to his seed, for him to be the heir of the world, but through a righteousness of faith.
14) For if those of Law are heirs, faith has been made of no effect, and the promise has been annulled.
15) For the Law works out wrath; for where no law is, neither is transgression.
16) On account of this, it is of faith, that it be according to grace, for the promise to be certain to all the seed, not to that of the Law only, but also to that of the faith of Abraham, who is father of us all,
17) according as it has been written, "I have appointed you a father of many nations;" before God, whom he believed, the One making the dead live, and calling the things that are not as if they were.
Not by works of any kind.
Much love!
The false teaching about works has been around so long that the error is now widespread.
Anyone reading Paul and the context of what he wrote about works, knows that when Paul uses the terms the law, or works, he is always talking about the works of the law of Moses.
We aren’t saved by doing the works of the law of Moses, which is comprised of 613 commands, laws and statutes that had to all be kept down to the least jot and tittle - we don’t sacrifice animals, don’t keep the many ceremonial laws and feasts in that law, etc..
But Paul never says there’s nothing at all required of a believer after salvation, yet people that have no clue what Paul means by works in Ephesians 2, defines anything required of a believer as a work, then denies that there are any such requirements.
Peter wrote that we must make our calling and election sure, by choosing to be#r fruit by adding to our faith Godliness and the other items on our list, so that IF we do this things, we won’t fall.
That requirement isn’t a work of the law of Moses, but it is something we are told to do.
And Jesus said the same, we have to bear fruit or be cut off from Him as a dead branch and end up in the fire.
He also said we’re His friends IF we do what He commands us to do
Paul made it clear that believers must continue to walk in the light as He is in the light, to continue in Christ, and continue to walk after the Spirit and not after flesh, but all that’s ignored by OSASers.
None of that is a work of the law of Moses.
And Paul warned believers over and over to BE NOT DECEIVED and to let no man DECEIVE you about what happens to any believer who chooses to live in sin again, that they will not enter into heaven, yet that is ignored, denied, or twisted by the error of OSAS.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Your argument comes straight out of the Roman Catholic church. Saved by "these" works (good works not of the law) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law) which is a bogus argument that still results in "works righteousness." Paul does not merely limit works to specific works of the law of Moses. Elsewhere, Paul states that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5) and Paul also stated that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9) and Paul NOWHERE states that we are saved by works of any kind. Simply by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8)
Also, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law. (James 2:15-16; Matthew 22:37-40; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Your anti-OSAS bias results in confusing 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture which culminates in "type 2 works salvation." Prior to my conversion several years ago, I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church and heard all of these same arguments that you present, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works.
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