Good Works Vs Works Of The Law

[robert derrick]

What was discussed was Christianity--and because some people object to that interpretation of Romans 7, it can in part be substantiated, since Paul was a Pharisee, by discussing what other Pharisees believe/d.

When I said "Jews are no longer under Law--Gentiles we're never under Law--when they believe" it's an important discussion in Christianity, but even moreso is it relevant, even as a quick aside, for this thread.

I was not referring to your posts.

I was referring to your video of Jews arguing about something so meaninglessly stupid and irrelevant about a 'ruling of law' that God never even wrote in the first place.

The Jews were and still are notorious for arguing about things, that need not even be discussed. Much as Catholics arguing about the details of how Mary was immaculately concepted...

 

[GracePeace]

Thanks I had not fully computed the difference between transgressing a known Law, which is iniquity: knowingly sinning, vs that of ignorantly sinning against an unknown law. The transgression of Adam was knowingly disobeying the commandment, which Eve was beguiled and deceived into. (1 Tim 2)

But since death reigned anyway, it shows that ignorance of God's law is no excuse. Then and now.

I.e. the Spirit of God goes to everyone's heart about the righteousness of God, and has done so since the beginning, which separates man made in the image of God from the beasts of the field made after their own likeness and kind. (Gen 1:12)

Not being circumcised was never a sin. It was sign of unbelief and obedience to God. Even as not being baptized is today.

1. The whole purpose for having brought the distinction (between the sins of the Jews vs the Gentiles--ie, Jews committed "transgression", or "knowingly" sinned, whereas the Gentiles had not been given specific revelation) was to establish that "knowledge of sin" which came "by the Law" was encompassed in "works of the Law" Romans 3:20.
The whole purpose for my having raised the (non-)issue of Gentiles having not been circumcised was in order to help establish that when it is said that they sinned without knowledge, and that when their sin is then contrasted with the sins of Jews who sinned with knowledge (transgression), because the Torah had informed them as to what righteousness (therefore, sin) was, that since the sin of the Gentiles had to concern actual moral infractions, "works of Law", whereby their "knowledge of sin" had come, must encompass something more than "circumcision, Sabbath, dietary, and other Jew-specific commands--not including moral issues like idolatry or theft or adultery".
2. According to Romans 1, Gentiles do have some inkling of God's will, but the Law is only "written" on their hearts by the Spirit Romans 2:13-15 when they partake of the New Covenant.

 

[GracePeace]

Thanks I had not fully computed the difference between transgressing a known Law, which is iniquity: knowingly sinning, vs that of ignorantly

Thanks for mentioning this. It'd never occurred to me that when Paul mentions "works of the Law... for by the Law comes knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20 he is talking about "transgression" there too. I'm sure this could help in understanding Romans.

 

[robert derrick]

Thanks for mentioning this. It'd never occurred to me that when Paul mentions "works of the Law... for by the Law comes knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20 he is talking about "transgression" there too. I'm sure this could help in understanding Romans.

"This whole discussion is about--trying to distinguish between "works of the Law" (which Christians are not required to do) and "good works" (which Christians are expected to do)."

I would first distinguish between obedience to God's law and doing the works of God's law.

Hypothesis:
We obey God and His law, but He no longer has any 'works of the law' to obey, but rather only to repent from. His law of Christ now is only against sin. He no longer has law of Moses pertaining to religion and ceremony. Those works of the law are done away in Christ Jesus, with the Covenant thereof.

Being dead to the law doesn't mean that there is no Law.

Paul never suggested the law of God is done away completely so that no law of God exists today in the New Covenant. What He does teach and exhort is the works of the law in ceremony and religion are done away and not to be lived by any longer as matters of faith in God.

Scripture:
In Romans 7, Paul is trying to help Christians, the new people of God, to understand that difference brought about by the changing of Covenant and of law of God (Heb 7:12). We are to obey the law of God by faith in Him, but no longer to live by the works of the law, as did the children of Israel in the Old Covenant.

The law itself was changed from that of Moses in the Old Covenant to that of Christ in the New, not done away with entirely. What has been done away with in the Law of God are all the 'good works' which pertained to religious ceremony only. (They were not dress and dietary law, but they were all religious in nature, religious law, which include dress, days, food, and especially that of ceremony in the temple sacrifice and worship)

What is kept in the Law of God and Christ is the moral judgment of God. That is the law God commands all men to obey by repentance (Acts 17:30), but only expects it from them called by his name: Christians. Believers and confessors of Jesus Christ, whether Jew or Greek.

As the people of God we have always been the ones with the first duty of obeying God's law. Judgment has always begun at His house (1Peter 4:17). Being dead to the law is being dead to transgression of the law, which occurred when we became dead to sin by birth of Christ. The law of God and of Christ is indeed the handwriting of ordinances nailed to the cross, when we believe Him and repent. But that law was not killed on the cross. Jesus was.

Against such that are crucified with Christ there is no law against us, but there is still law against sin.

Christians are dead to the law, in that we obey it naturally being born again of the Spirit to be made partakers of His divine nature. The law itself is not dead, nor is it sin (7:7), nor is it evil, but is holy and good (7:12).

The law is not the problem to faith, but it is living by the law, doing the works of the law, that is deadly to faith.

By nature of law itself, the law has no good 'works', but only works of transgression and sin. The law of God today only gives knowledge of sin, what is in fact sinful to God. The law is holy and written by God with power to condemn, but it is dead in that it has no power to produce 'good' works. We obey and keep the Law of Christ not to do evil, but there is no Law of Christ to do good. It is 'good' not to transgress His law, but that is not sufficient for righteousness and true holiness. By commandment of God there is indeed sin of omission. Doing good in the New Covenant can only be by faith, because we have no law to command us in what to do and how to do it in any particular point. No more ceremony, no more specifics of what 'good' religion is. The pure religion of Christ is to be unspotted by the world, by not doing the works of the flesh, and to do good to them we have within our power to do. (James 1:27, 2:16)

All that is left of the Law of God in Christ Jesus is His moral judgment against sin. No more religious and ceremonial law remains. Though we have commandment to be baptized, it is not the law of baptism, as in the Old it was the law of the sabbath and of circumcision.

Doing the works of the law of Christ, living by the law of Christ is not possible, because Christ has no law to do anything. His law in the New as opposed to that of Moses in the Old is only written against that which He calls sin, what not to do. The Law of Moses was indeed a 'list' of do's and dont's, but the Law of Christ had been purged of the do's and is left only with the dont's.

We do not live by a list of do's and dont's for God any longer. We have a commandment to love God and to do good, but a specific list of do's in the law are done away. However, there certainly does remain the moral judgment of the Law written as a list of dont's. That 'list' is called the works of the flesh: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness...(Gal 5)

So like everyone, we are to obey the Law of Christ not to do the works of the flesh, and more so since we are born of God Himself, with the power of the Spirit to repent from such dead works. These are the only works of the law today: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5)

Living by the law of Christ and doing the works of that law is entirely carnal and contrary to the life of the Spirit now living within us. There are now only 2 ways to do the 'works of the law': either as transgressions and works of the flesh, or as old religious and ceremonial rules that have been done away.

James taught that faith without works is dead: good works, not ceremonial and religious woks no longer written into Law of God. Simple repenting from dead works according to the Law of Christ is not sufficient to live by faith. For faith to be kept and to remain alive within our hearts, we must go on to doing the good works that are a result of mature moral judgment in discerning between good and evil. We are not justified before God by avoiding doing evil, but rather we are justified by faith in doing good in life with Christ.

"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."

Evil is written as a list of Scripture in the law of Christ. We avoid the evil and do the good by faith in Jesus.

And Paul taught that doing anything as a 'good' work according to law is vain, foolish, and destructive to faith. Because against the good and the righteous in Christ there is no law, and there is no law pertaining to doing good works, whether by religion, ceremony, or even good deeds without faith.

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal 3)

"And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." (I COr 13)

 

[GracePeace]

"This whole discussion is about--trying to distinguish between "works of the Law" (which Christians are not required to do) and "good works" (which Christians are expected to do)."

I would first distinguish between obedience to God's law and doing the works of God's law.

Hypothesis:
We obey God and His law, but He no longer has any 'works of the law' to obey, but rather only to repent from. His law of Christ now is only against sin. He no longer has law of Moses pertaining to religion and ceremony. Those works of the law are done away in Christ Jesus, with the Covenant thereof.

Being dead to the law doesn't mean that there is no Law.

Paul never suggested the law of God is done away completely so that no law of God exists today in the New Covenant. What He does teach and exhort is the works of the law in ceremony and religion are done away and not to be lived by any longer as matters of faith in God.

1. I have (to me, surprisingly--usually, people don't really have anything to offer except statements I already know and agree with or errors that call for correction) found some elements of your posts to be insightful and helpful.

2. The issue with thinking "works of law" are only "to be repented from" is that there is a lot of overlap between even the narrowest (it is deficient actually) definition of "works of Law", and "good works"--eg, Paul has Timothy circumcised.

Scripture:
In Romans 7, Paul is trying to help Christians, the new people of God, to understand that difference brought about by the changing of Covenant and of law of God (Heb 7:12). We are to obey the law of God by by faith in Him, but no no longer to live by the works of the law, as did the children of Israel in the Old Covenant.

If you compare Romans 2:12-15 (which describe Gentiles as "not having the Law") against Romans 2:17, Romans 4:1, Romans 7:1, Paul is clearly speaking with Jewish believers in Romans 7 (actually from roundabout Chapter 2 through Chapter 11 he is almost exclusively addressing Jewish believers--the Gentiles wouldn't even have understood all of Paul's Scriptural argumentation, since they didn't possess Scripture, much less would they have raised them in order for Paul to have to preempt them).
Paul relies on tradition both he and his audience, Jewish believers, already agree upon : the Law demonstrates that It Itself orders freedom from Itself to Jews who die (hence, "Through the Law, I died to the Law"--the Law Itself demands my freedom from It, and only by being free from It am I "obeying" the Law).

The law itself was changed from that of Moses in the Old Covenant to that of Christ in the New, not done away with entirely. What has been done away with in the Law of God are all the 'good works' which pertained to religious ceremony only. (They were not dress and dietary law, but they were all religious in nature, religious law, which include dress, days, food, and especially that of ceremony in the temple sacrifice and worship) What is kept in the Law of God and Christ is the moral judgment of God. That is the law God commands all men to obey by repentance (Acts 17:30), but only expects it from them called by his name: Christians. Believers and confessors of Jesus Christ, whether Jew or Greek.

As the people of God we have always been the ones with the first duty of obeying God's law. Judgment has always begun at His house (1Peter 4:17). Being dead to the law is being dead to transgression of the law, which occurred when we became dead to sin by birth of Christ. The law of God and of Christ is indeed the handwriting of ordinances nailed to the cross, when we believe Him and repent. But that law was not killed on the cross. Jesus was.

Against such that are crucified with Christ there is no law against us, but there is law against sin.

Christians are dead to the law, in that we obey it naturally being born again of the Spirit to be made partakers of His divine nature. The law itself is not dead, nor is it sin (7:7), nor is it evil, but is holy and good (7:12).

The law is not the problem to faith, but it is living by the law, doing the works of the law, that is deadly to faith.

By nature of law itself, the law has no good 'works', but only works of transgression and sin. The law of God today only gives knowledge of sin, what sinful is to God. The law is holy and written by God with power to condemn, but it is dead in that it has no power to produce 'good' works. We obey and keep the Law of Christ not to do evil, but there is no Law of Christ to do good. It is good not to transgress His law, but that is all. Doing good can only now be by faith, because we have no law to command us in what to do and how in any particular point. No more ceremony, no more specifics of what 'good' religion is. The pure religion of Christ is to be unspotted by the world, by not doing the works of the flesh, and to do good to them we have within our power to do. (James 1:27, 2:16)

All that is left of the Law of God in Christ Jesus is His moral judgment against sin. No more religious and ceremonial law remains. Though we have commandment to be baptized, it is not the law of baptism, as in the Old it was the law of the sabbath and of circumcision.

Doing the works of the law of Christ, living by the law of Christ is not possible, because Christ has no law to do anything. His law in the New as opposed to that of Moses in the Old is only written against that which He calls sin, what not to do. The Law of Moses was indeed a 'list' of do's and dont's, but the Law of Christ had been purged of the do's and is left only with the dont's.

We do not live by a list of do's and dont's for God any longer. We have a commandment to love God and to do good, but a specific list of do's in the law are done away. However, there certainly does remain the moral judgment of the Law written as a list of dont's. That 'list' is called the works of the flesh: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness...(Gal 5)

So like everyone, we are to obey the Law of Christ not to do the works of the flesh, and more so since we are born of God Himself, with the power of the Spirit to repent from such dead works. These are the only works of the law today: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5)

Living by the law of Christ and doing the works of that law is entirely carnal and contrary to the life of the Spirit now living within us. There are now only 2 ways to do the 'works of the law': either as transgressions and works of the flesh, or as old religious and ceremonial rules that have been done away.

James taught that faith without works is dead: good works, not ceremonial and religious woks no longer written into Law of God. Simple repenting from dead works according to the Law of Christ is not sufficient to live by faith. For faith to be kept and to remain alive within our hearts, we must go on to doing the good works that are a result of mature moral judgment in discerning between good and evil. We are not justified before God by avoiding doing evil, but rather we are justified by faith in doing good in life with Christ.

"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."

Evil is written as a list of Scripture in the law of Christ. We avoid the evil and do the good by faith in Jesus.

And Paul taught that doing anything as a 'good' work according to law is vain, foolish, and destructive to faith. Because against the good and the righteous in Christ there is no law, and there is no law pertaining to doing good works, whether by religion, ceremony, or even good deeds without faith.

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal 3)

"And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." (I COr 13)

1. The doctrine "not under Law but under Grace" does not relate to whether or not there are expectations of moral excellence, but relates to the method whereby those good works are wrought: Romans 8:3 the law was weak in that it relied on sinful flesh Romans 8:4 the righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled by those who walk after the Spirit [of Grace--we "serve by newness of the Spirit", we are "under Grace"]".
There are other complications and details that could be noted but this should suffice for now.
2. There really is a "Law of Christ" 1 Corinthians 9:19-22, but I think that relates to one's personal relationship with Him (because Paul says "I become all things to all men that I may win some souls... but it is not as though I am without God's Law, but I am within the Law of Christ"--ie, "I am not practicing homosexuality in order to win homosexuals--that's not what I mean!").

 

[robert derrick]

1. I have (to me, surprisingly--usually, people don't really have anything to offer except statements I already know and agree with or errors that call for correction) found some elements of your posts to be insightful and helpful.

2. The issue with thinking "works of law" are only "to be repented from" is that there is a lot of overlap between even the narrowest (it is deficient actually) definition of "works of Law", and "good works"--eg, Paul has Timothy circumcised.


If you compare Romans 2:12-15 (which describe Gentiles as "not having the Law") against Romans 2:17, Romans 4:1, Romans 7:1, Paul is clearly speaking with Jewish believers in Romans 7 (actually from roundabout Chapter 2 through Chapter 11 he is almost exclusively addressing Jewish believers--the Gentiles wouldn't even have understood all of Paul's Scriptural argumentation, since they didn't possess Scripture, much less would they have raised them in order for Paul to have to preempt them).
Paul relies on tradition both he and his audience, Jewish believers, already agree upon : the Law demonstrates that It Itself orders freedom from Itself to Jews who die (hence, "Through the Law, I died to the Law"--the Law Itself demands my freedom from It, and only by being free from It am I "obeying" the Law).


1. The doctrine "not under Law but under Grace" does not relate to whether or not there are expectations of moral excellence, but relates to the method whereby those good works are wrought: Romans 8:3 the law was weak in that it relied on sinful flesh Romans 8:4 the righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled by those who walk after the Spirit [of Grace--we "serve by newness of the Spirit", we are "under Grace"]".
There are other complications and details that could be noted but this should suffice for now.
2. There really is a "Law of Christ" 1 Corinthians 9:19-22, but I think that relates to one's personal relationship with Him (because Paul says "I become all things to all men that I may win some souls... but it is not as though I am without God's Law, but I am within the Law of Christ"--ie, "I am not practicing homosexuality in order to win homosexuals--that's not what I mean!").

"I have found some elements of your posts to be insightful and helpful."

I'll take that as a high compliment, because I likewise have found some or your stuff as new and valid. (It's only your British style hippy monte python photo that clouds you as non-serious...)

I think the main difference between you and I is one of angle, not conclusion. You obviously have a more scholastic view of Scripture. Sort of looking in from the outside. (Not that you are outside the faith). While I think I have a more immersed view. Looking from the inside and explaining the inside.

For instance, I would never make note that Paul is speaking expressly to the Jews in chapters such and such. For me, it is God speaking to all who would hear, whether Jew or Greek, and it is up to me to hear and understand it as written from within the body of Christ.

I said that to explain this: I will need to actually research your statements to even see what you are talking about.

Now I will attempt to demonstrate our difference of approach:

"There really is a "Law of Christ" 1 Corinthians 9:19-22, but I think that relates to one's personal relationship with Him..."

There really is law of Christ and it really is for everyone to obey, and all will be judged by it.

"The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12)

And that law is not for one's personal relationship with Jesus.The law is not for the righteous who desire no sin against Him in the first place, and there is no law between Jesus and His own in personal faith. The only true relationship with God begins with repentance form dead works as defined by His law, but the building of our relationship with Him as friends is by faith and love:

"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15)

We obey the law that we may have fellowship with God, but it is by faith that we grow therein. Not by the law. And those who seek growth and 'perfection' by the law err grievously in the faith, by becoming carnally minded through a law of carnal ordinances (Heb 9:10). I.e. those who pursue 'holiness' in their lives through carnal rules of dress, etc...become so caught up in such things, that they become carnally minded about everything, whether to do this or to do that or in this way or in that way. They have so many letters of a holiness law, that they drown in them like quicksand (Matthew 7:26), and quench the spirit and destroy the faith. (But that's another story)

And yet your reading on being all things to all men, yet within the Law of Christ is intuitively understood, but the first time I have seen it expressly stated as such. Good job. And it is important, because I have heard of certain Christian girls so fervent in ministry, that they would actually consider prostitution for a season in order to be all things...And I see the height of hypocrisy in those that purposely pose as homeless for a while in order to win the homeless, and even worse to judge the reactions of Christians to their supposed homelessness.

 

[robert derrick]

The law is not our enemy in Christ, but is our friend. Before Christ, they were under the law, as captives and prisoners thereof, being forced to do what they would not and forbidden to do what they would (Rom 7). To the carnal mind, the law is a list of dont's that destroys of liberty fo will. But to the righteous the law is holy and good and necessary for faith in God. We are no longer under the law but rather stand with the law written in our hearts. (Jerem 31:33) The love of God shed abroad in our hearts is what frees us from the law of sin and death, because the law against sin that only works death to those that transgress, is no longer our enemy of liberty, but our friend of faith in God:

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." (James 4:4

We obey the law, because we love God, and hate iniquity, which is defined by God's law. we consent that the law is good and transgression thereof is evil; therefore, we cry out to God for deliverance from sin and transgression, that we may be friends with Him as Father rather than Judge. The sinner avoids transgression only to avoid the punishment thereof, which is the sorrow of the world and of Esau. But the righteous abhor transgression as violation of trust and love of God. When two are espoused by marriage with love freely from the heart, it is not a bondage, and defiling it is not a desire.

His written law is nailed to the cross with our old man of sins. We are free from the law and any works of the law, which are the works of the flesh, because we are free from sin that is against the law.

Such law against sin is not against those who no more continue in sin against God. Rather the law of God becomes our ally, our fellow-advocate in ministry to expose sin as sin indeed:

"Was then that which is good (the law) made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Rom 7:13)

Without the written law of God we cannot minister the need of faith and grace of Jesus to be delivered therefrom. Without the law of God expressly defining sin against Himself, there is no conviction of His Spirit nor persuasion for salvation from sin. We would have no power of God to beseech men in Christ's stead to be reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:20). Why? Nothing to be reconciled from. No transgressions to be delivered from. Why? Because no law to be judged by. Where no law is there is no transgression (Rom 4:15). The holy law therefore becomes essential: not to the righteous to live by, but to the unrighteous to be convinced by:

"Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed." (Jude 14-15)

 

[GracePeace]

"I have found some elements of your posts to be insightful and helpful."

I'll take that as a high compliment, because I likewise have found some or your stuff as new and valid. (It's only your British style hippy monte python photo that clouds you as non-serious...)

That avatar is from "A Clockwork Orange"--to me, it is meant to convey "confrontation" and "reckoning" (because of what it means in the movie, if you know the scene--"Well, well, well...").

I think the main difference between you and I is one of angle, not conclusion. You obviously have a more scholastic view of Scripture. Sort of looking in from the outside. (Not that you are outside the faith). While I think I have a more immersed view. Looking from the inside and explaining the inside.

For instance, I would never make note that Paul is speaking expressly to the Jews in chapters such and such. For me, it is God speaking to all who would hear, whether Jew or Greek, and it is up to me to hear and understand it as written from within the body of Christ.

I said that to explain this: I will need to actually research your statements to even see what you are talking about.

Well, it's important.
"We are no longer under Law" only holds true for the Jew, but the Gentile was never under Law so they are not "set free from the Law".
If Romans is going to be discussed, it needs to be, I think, with great accuracy.

Now I will attempt to demonstrate our difference of approach:

"There really is a "Law of Christ" 1 Corinthians 9:19-22, but I think that relates to one's personal relationship with Him..."

There really is law of Christ and it really is for everyone to obey, and all will be judged by it.

Romans 14 says there are different convictions each man has--and we can even have different views on these things, without either of us being wrong--and each man has to walk in his own conviction. This was what I meant.

We obey the law that we may have fellowship with God. It is by faith that we grow therein. Not by the law. And those who seek growth and 'perfection' by the law err grievously in the faith, by becoming carnally minded through a law of carnal ordinances (Heb 9:10). I.e. those who pursue 'holiness' in their lives through carnal rules of dress, etc...become so caught up in such things, that they become carnally minded about everything, whether to do this or to do that or in this way or in that way. They have so many letters of a holiness law, that they drown in them like quicksand (Matthew 7:26), and quench the spirit and destroy the faith. (But that's another story)

1. Yes, Galatians 3:1-5.
2. I really believe this is what Paul means when he says he is "dead to the Law that he may live to God".

And yet your reading on being all things to all men, yet within the Law of Christ is intuitively understood, but the first time I have seen it expressly stated as such. Good job. And it is important, because I have heard of certain Christian girls so fervent in ministry, that they would actually consider prostitution for a season in order to be all things...And I see the height of hypocrisy in those that purposely pose as homeless for a while in order to win the homeless, and even worse to judge the reactions of Christians to their supposed homelessness.

Yeah, "all things to all men" as an idea scared me... until "yet not as though without God's Law but within Christ's Law" became apparent.

 

[GracePeace]

The law is not our enemy in Christ, but is our friend. Before Christ, they were under the law, as captives and prisoners thereof, being forced to do what they would not and forbidden to do what they would (Rom 7). To the carnal mind, the law is a list of dont's that destroys of liberty fo will. But to the righteous the law is holy and good and necessary for faith in God. We are no longer under the law but rather stand with the law written in our hearts. (Jerem 31:33) The love of God shed abroad in our hearts is what frees us from the law of sin and death, because the law against sin that only works death to those that transgress, is no longer our enemy of liberty, but our friend of faith in God:

When Paul says we're not under Law, he says what we are "under" is "Grace".
"Under" doesn't mean "condemned"--then "under Grace" would mean "condemned by Grace".
"Under" means "under the jurisdiction of".

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." (James 4:4

We obey the law, because we love God, and hate iniquity, which is defined by God's law. we consent that the law is good and transgression thereof is evil; therefore, we cry out to God for deliverance from sin and transgression, that we may be friends with Him as Father rather than Judge. The sinner avoids transgression only to avoid the punishment thereof, which is the sorrow of the world and of Esau. But the righteous abhor transgression as violation of trust and love of God. When two are espoused by marriage with love freely from the heart, it is not a bondage, and defiling it is not a desire.

To be clear, the Gentiles obedience to the writing of the Law on their hearts (as partakers of the New Covenant) qualified them to be "doers of Law" Romans 2:13-15--we needn't know the Written Code to be doers thereof.

His written law is nailed to the cross with our old man of sins. We are free from the law and any works of the law, which are the works of the flesh, because we are free from sin that is against the law.

Such law against sin is not against those who no more continue in sin against God. Rather the law of God becomes our ally, our fellow-advocate in ministry to expose sin as sin indeed:

"Was then that which is good (the law) made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Rom 7:13)

Without the written law of God we cannot minister the need of faith and grace of Jesus to be delivered therefrom. Without the law of God expressly defining sin against Himself, there is no conviction of His Spirit nor persuasion for salvation from sin. We would have no power of God to beseech men in Christ's stead to be reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:20). Why? Nothing to be reconciled from. No transgressions to be delivered from. Why? Because no law to be judged by. Where no law is there is no transgression (Rom 4:15). The holy law therefore becomes essential: not to the righteous to live by, but to the unrighteous to be convinced by:

Interestingly, Christ repudiates the Law as having permitted sin--eg, adultery Matthew 19.
The rabbis agree--read Rashi on Deuteronomy 21:11.
It is not a reliable measure of righteousness.
It is not high enough.

 

[Grailhunter]

And yet your reading on being all things to all men, yet within the Law of Christ is intuitively understood, but the first time I have seen it expressly stated as such. Good job. And it is important, because I have heard of certain Christian girls so fervent in ministry, that they would actually consider prostitution for a season in order to be all things...And I see the height of hypocrisy in those that purposely pose as homeless for a while in order to win the homeless, and even worse to judge the reactions of Christians to their supposed homelessness.

Yeah, "all things to all men" as an idea scared me... until "yet not as though without God's Law but within Christ's Law" became apparent.

This is not my post...this seems to be your primary debate tactic...put words in other people's mouth.

 

[robert derrick]

1. The law of Christ is written and is firm. Transgressors thereof shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2. There are no works of Law of Christ to do by faith, because there are no religious and ceremonial rules written therein. The law of Christ is only written against sin.

3. The children of Israel were bound by the law of Moses to do certain works of dress, food, and religious ceremony. Christians are not.

In the New Covenant of Jesus Christ born of the Spirit and living by His faith, God has not only delivered man from sin and it's nature in the heart, but He has also released man from living by the works of the law. Mankind must no more do anything of ritual, ceremony, and religious practice by law of God.

We are free from sin, and so free from judgment of the law, and free to live by faith only, which begins with repentance of dead works defined by the law...By grace we are saved from sin and transgressions of the law, and by faith we grow in personal relationship and friendship with God, standing upon the firm foundation of His law that will judge every man according to his works.

We are no longer under the law of God, but rather rather are standing with and upon it in the righteousness and true holiness of God that is by faith.

 

[Grailhunter]

To be clear, the Gentiles obedience to the writing of the Law on their hearts (as partakers of the New Covenant) qualified them to be "doers of Law" Romans 2:13-15--we needn't know the Law to be doers thereof.

If Christ's teachings is the fulfilment of the Law...then the Law ends with Him...we simply follow Christ. Doer of something you know nothing of...that is an interesting concept...I think you need brain surgery, would you mind if I did it for you....no charge!

 

[GracePeace]

This is not my post...this seems to be your primary debate tactic...put words in other people's mouth.

Mistake. Will go correct.

 

[GracePeace]

1. The law of Christ is written and is firm. Transgressors thereof shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

No address of Romans 14. Interesting.

2. There are no works of Law of Christ to do by faith, because there are no religious and ceremonial rules written therein. The law of Christ is only written against sin

3. The children of Israel were bound by the law of Moses to do certain works of dress, food, and religious ceremony. Christians are not.

In the New Covenant of Jesus Christ born of the Spirit and living by His faith, God has not only delivered man from sin and it's nature in the heart, but He has also released man from living by the works of the law. Mankind must no more do anything of ritual, ceremony, and religious practice by law of God.

This definition of "works of Law" has already been debunked.

We are free from sin, and so free from judgment of the law, and free to live by faith only, which begins with repentance of dead works defined by the law...By grace we are saved from sin and transgressions of the law, and by faith we grow in personal relationship and friendship with God, standing upon the firm foundation of His law that will judge every man according to his works.

We are no longer under the law of God, but rather rather are standing with and upon it in the righteousness and true holiness of God that is by faith.

Show me a single Scripture that says "not under Law, standing beside the Law".
That's nowhere.
It says "not under Law, but under Grace".
It says "dead to the Law that I might live to God".
Nowhere is there "standing beside Law".

 

[GracePeace]

If Christ's teachings is the fulfilment of the Law...then the Law ends with Him...we simply follow Christ. Doer of something you know nothing of...that is an interesting concept...I think you need brain surgery, would you mind if I did it for you....no charge!

Already told you I'm not discussing Scripture with you dude.

 

[robert derrick]

No address of Romans 14. Interesting.


This definition of "works of Law" has already been debunked.


Show me a single Scripture that says "not under Law, standing beside the Law".
That's nowhere.
It says "not under Law, but under Grace".
It says "dead to the Law that I might live to God".
Nowhere is there "standing beside Law".

"Paul has Timothy circumcised." Not according to the law of Christ, but according to putting an issue of contention aside for the sake of ministry. Paul's whole message was that in Christ Jesus, such things are no longer by law. And he had to get that across to Peter personally.

"that since the sin of the Gentiles had to concern actual moral infractions, "works of Law", whereby their "knowledge of sin" had come"

I.e. such works of the law by definition not good works. The only good works of the law with God were under the law of Moses pertaining to ceremonial and religious rules of law. There are no more such good works of the Law of God. The law of Christ is restricted to the list of dont's that violate God's righteousness. We have been freed from the points of law pertaining to transgressions (James 2:10), and freed from the law pertaining to ceremony and religion, because there is none anymore.

I look at it this way: Commandments are what God wants us to do. Law is what God forbids us doing. The First commandment was to freely eat, and the the first point of law was: but of that one thou shalt not eat.

Paul exhorted Christians not to judge one another according to days and foods and drinks, etc...because God no longer had any law pertaining to such things.

'Points of law' of Christ are particular sins against God that are 'listed' in Scripture as works of the flesh: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like..."

Paul lists other such works elsewhere, and James lists 1: having respect of persons in the faith.
The 'works' of the law no longer exist in God's law as 'good' deeds to do. They have all been done away with the New Covenant and His law changed into that of Christ, from that of Moses.

God's people can no longer 'do' anything good by His law, which used to be living by in the Old Covenant. The only 'work' of the law we can do is to transgress it. Despots come up with laws commanding their subjects to do certain things. A free society only makes laws forbidding criminal action. God was very despotic in His law of Moses, because He needed to be and used it as a means of revealing Christ in His time, and of teaching us the true nature of Christ in our time.

One more try: By the law of Christ there is now only knowledge of sin. There is no more knowledge by law of doing good, whether religiously or charitably.

 

[robert derrick]

1. I have (to me, surprisingly--usually, people don't really have anything to offer except statements I already know and agree with or errors that call for correction) found some elements of your posts to be insightful and helpful.

2. The issue with thinking "works of law" are only "to be repented from" is that there is a lot of overlap between even the narrowest (it is deficient actually) definition of "works of Law", and "good works"--eg, Paul has Timothy circumcised.


If you compare Romans 2:12-15 (which describe Gentiles as "not having the Law") against Romans 2:17, Romans 4:1, Romans 7:1, Paul is clearly speaking with Jewish believers in Romans 7 (actually from roundabout Chapter 2 through Chapter 11 he is almost exclusively addressing Jewish believers--the Gentiles wouldn't even have understood all of Paul's Scriptural argumentation, since they didn't possess Scripture, much less would they have raised them in order for Paul to have to preempt them).
Paul relies on tradition both he and his audience, Jewish believers, already agree upon : the Law demonstrates that It Itself orders freedom from Itself to Jews who die (hence, "Through the Law, I died to the Law"--the Law Itself demands my freedom from It, and only by being free from It am I "obeying" the Law).


1. The doctrine "not under Law but under Grace" does not relate to whether or not there are expectations of moral excellence, but relates to the method whereby those good works are wrought: Romans 8:3 the law was weak in that it relied on sinful flesh Romans 8:4 the righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled by those who walk after the Spirit [of Grace--we "serve by newness of the Spirit", we are "under Grace"]".
There are other complications and details that could be noted but this should suffice for now.
2. There really is a "Law of Christ" 1 Corinthians 9:19-22, but I think that relates to one's personal relationship with Him (because Paul says "I become all things to all men that I may win some souls... but it is not as though I am without God's Law, but I am within the Law of Christ"--ie, "I am not practicing homosexuality in order to win homosexuals--that's not what I mean!").

"Paul relies on tradition both he and his audience, Jewish believers, already agree upon : the Law demonstrates that It Itself orders freedom from Itself to Jews who die (hence, "Through the Law, I died to the Law"--the Law Itself demands my freedom from It, and only by being free from It am I "obeying" the Law)."

"When once you begin to go into tradition, you begin to go away from Scripture." (Anonymous)

Hence, I really don't know what you and the Jews are talking about, except that with death, we that remain are free from any law binding us to that dead one, such as marriage. And it really does sound like some Rabbinically intellectualized twist on Scripture to state that we are only free from the law by dying in obedience to the law's demand that we die...

However, Scripturally I would put it this way: By the law God demands death for certain transgressions thereof. By the law we know what is transgression to God and the penalty for. Without it, we wouldn't know we are sinning, except by moral conscience which God has given to every man.

In the law of Christ death is the result for any transgression, which is the wage of sin. But in Christ we have forgiveness by confession without need of sacrifice for sin, because He is our sacrifice. All are now commanded to repent, Jew of Greek, and not violate His law of His New Covenant of Christ. And those born of Him are free of the penalty of that law, because we are free of the transgressions thereof as written in Scripture: the points of law listed as dont's.

But, if we do transgress, then the law condemns us, even more so than them that believe not, because we are children of God expected to obey Him and no transgress. The law of Christ is still as weak as that of Moses, in that it can only condemn the works of the flesh.

 

[robert derrick]

That avatar is from "A Clockwork Orange"--to me, it is meant to convey "confrontation" and "reckoning" (because of what it means in the movie, if you know the scene--"Well, well, well...").

"We are no longer under Law" only holds true for the Jew, but the Gentile was never under Law so they are not "set free from the Law".
If Romans is going to be discussed, it needs to be, I think, with great accuracy.

Clockwork Orange. I thought it was some dystopian British thing.

"We are no longer under Law" only holds true for the Jew, but the Gentile was never under Law so they are not "set free from the Law".
If Romans is going to be discussed, it needs to be, I think, with great accuracy."

Ok, I see where you and I diverge by context of reading Scripture. When I read Scripture, I don't see Jew or Greek, only God telling me what He says.

And though Paul may have thought he was 'just addressing; the Jews as a people distinct and separate from the rest of mankind, Gentiles, God was not. James may indeed have thought He was writing to the Jewish 12 tribes scattered abroad, God was not.

I say these things to you in order to show you where I am coming from where reading Scripture is concerned.

No apostle of Jesus was ever writing anything to anyone, especially not to some particular group of people. God was writing to any and everyone. Unless He specifically says so in His Scripture.

No Gospel is Luke's. No epistle is Paul's. The Bible is God's, not man's. And the only Book in the Bible that is specifically someone's is Revelation, which is Jesus' given to Him by God.

In like manner, no Scripture of God pertains only to this one or that one. Much of Romans was not written just to the Jews. It was ALL written to you and me, for our benefit.

God did not have His apostles write His Scriptures of His New Covenant to any people after the flesh as distinct from anyone else. There is no more Jew or Greek where Scripture is concerned.

With all that said to you personally, so that you know exactly where I am coming from:

God's people were under the law of God by Moses in His old Covenant. God's people are now no longer under the law of God by Christ in His New Covenant. We were under the law of Moses in that we were bound by it to perform certain things religiously and ceremonially in His worship and service by faith. We are not under the law of Christ in that we are set free from any and all such carnal ordinances.

When Christ died on the cross, we were set free from the law of a carnal commandment, that we might live by faith to do His living commandments: Love God, Love yourself. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Likewise, when He died on the cross by the will of of His own after the flesh, who received Him not, God no more has anything to do with them than any other inhabiter of the earth. Jew or Greek means absolutely nothing to God anymore. All sinners are Gentiles from God, except they believe His Son. And all Scripture is now written to and for any who would read and understand the words of His prophecy. (Rev 1)

 

[GracePeace]

"Paul has Timothy circumcised." Not according to the law of Christ, but according to putting an issue of contention aside for the sake of ministry. Paul's whole message was that in Christ Jesus, such things are no longer by law. And he had to get that across to Peter personally.

1. Yes, according to Christ's Law--he became all things to all people because he was under Christ's Law and wanted to win people to Christ and His Law.
2. Anyway, the original point (let's not lose the forest for the trees) was that there is an overlap between "good works" and "works of Law" even by your (in my view, deficient) definition of "works of Law".

"that since the sin of the Gentiles had to concern actual moral infractions, "works of Law", whereby their "knowledge of sin" had come"

I.e. such works of the law by definition not good works.

When the Law tells the Jew to do something good, or to avert something evil, that is the Law providing the Jew with the knowledge of sin, thus he "transgresses like Adam", doesn't "sin like Gentiles who do not transgress like Adam because they don't have explicit commands from the Creator".

The only good works of the law with God were under the law of Moses pertaining to ceremonial and religious rules of law.

Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7 prevent me from accepting this definition of "works of law".

I look at it this way: Commandments are what God wants us to do. Law is what God forbids us doing.

This is an indefensible view : the Law commands love for neighbor as oneself and love for God with all one's heart soul and strength.

Paul exhorted Christians not to judge one another according to days and foods and drinks, etc...because God no longer had any law pertaining to such things.

Well, Gentiles never were under Law so He didn't "change" anything for them.
"Not under Law but under Grace" mainly refers to a new means as already stated.

God's people can no longer 'do' anything good by His law, which used to be living by in the Old Covenant. The only 'work' of the law we can do is to transgress it.

It was apparently only ever meant to "increase transgression" Romans 5:20.