Getting drunk in the spirit "Biblically"

[Raccoon1010]

Has the Holy Ghost never Spoken through you? Have you never explained to a brother a concept from scripture that you never understood before but the unction of the Holy Ghost gave you the ability to explain that concept lucidly and clearly to that brother? Have you never heard of missionaries going to unknown tribes and miraculously learning the language of those tribes without the help of an interpreter? We are vessels the Holy Ghost speaks through to others around us, this is known as the Unction of the Holy Ghost, "speaking in tongues" is only a small part of this. This is what it means to walk in the Spirit.

I once told a person I was doing missionary work for that God can do no evil and Satan can do no good. God then confirmed that fact by filling me with the Holy Spirit of Love and Peace that lasted for hours. So yes I have spoken for the Holy Spirit before. And yes I believe that one of the gifts is to speak in tongues which is to learn other languages. But that is not failing to understand what you are speaking and thinking you are speaking in tongues when your not. God is not the author of confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:33

New King James Version

33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

 

[David H.]

I once told a person I was doing missionary work for that God can do no evil and Satan can do no good. God then confirmed that fact by filling me with the Holy Spirit of Love and Peace that lasted for hours. So yes I have spoken for the Holy Spirit before. And yes I believe that one of the gifts is to speak in tongues which is to learn other languages. But that is not failing to understand what you are speaking and thinking you are speaking in tongues when your not. God is not the author of confusion.

I Am glad to hear that, and my question was not meant to get you on the defensive but to show you all believers experience this whether fundamentalist or Charismatic. God's ways and understandings are so much bigger than our understanding, that is the point I am making. Sometimes we are led to Speak by the Holy Ghost and do not fully comprehend the topic we are speaking of But God gives us the Wisdom to understand and speak and explain this.... This is nothing short of a miracle when he uses my puny mind to explain the deep things of God, not only do I teach others but I learn myself when this happens.

I Will give you a personal experience here of this. I was Speaking to a person that was obsessed with Ron Wyatt's claims of finding the ark of the covenant, I did not fully understand why I was against this (perhaps I saw some quackery in his claims), But the Holy Ghost gave me both Scriptures and a deeper understanding of what the ark is here and now, and that the Physical ark of the covenant is "long gone" and will not be found. The Scriptures included Jeremiah 3:16, In the process the Holy Ghost taught me that we are the ark of the testimony now, and this understanding gave me a fuller understanding of the depth of the sacrifice Of Christ for us, and how this applies in verses like Revelation 11:19 to all believers.

 

[David H.]

33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Do not confuse "confusion" with revelation. Confusion comes from the mind of man, the confusion of denominationalism is sourced in the intellect and Hubris of man in that intellect. Revelation from God often times will appear as confusion to the man that operates in their intellectual Hubris. This is what Paul writes about in 1 Corinthians 3:18 (read this in full context).

 

[Taken]

I want to present that being in the spirit biblically is not what some folks make it out to be. Particularly that it's not losing control and writhing on the floor.

The very passage people quote to defend losing control does not say anything of the nature. In context Ephesians 5:18-19 says to speak psalms and sing hymns in the description.

And Acts 2, mentions speaking in tounges. Neither passage describes losing control.

Also, we need to take what the rest of scripture has to say about the Holy Spirit because scripture does not contradict itself. Galations 5:22 lists the Spirit's attributes and among those is self control.

Agree.
There are Scriptures about knowing in ones heart, a need, but not being able to put that need, into ones own words.
There are Scripture about God KNOWS the thoughts of a mans heart, a mans needs, without the mans own words.

A man speaking, a language he knows not it’s meaning, a listener hearing such speech, knowing not the language or meaning...edifies who? The speaker? The listener? God?

DRUNK is a state of being indulged in “something” that “negatively” affects...
The natural “instincts/reflects” of the individual.
The “reasoning” power of the individual.
The “control/awareness” of the individual.
The “recall/remembrance” of the individual.

KEY WORD...NEGATIVE
KEY KNOWLEDGE...Gods Word reveals BOTH “positive AND negative”..
KEY UNDERSTANDING...Gods Word Always Encourages FOR a “GOOD” result: to favor, to elect, to choose, The “Positive”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[robert derrick]

No, no. I'm charismatic, and I love having discussions on this sort of thing. What you bring up is correct. Much if not most of the modern "charismatic" movement is anything but that, and older charismatics know it and complain about it as much as you do. The gifts used to be real and genuine back 50 years ago in many Pentecostal churches. Now many are geared towards attracting young people, and they follow the megachurch model for growth (music and entertainment, with a little teaching thrown in), so most of it's just acting and fraud now, and it's why most charismatics have left the churches altogether at this point and meet in homes, or not at all.

And so original charismaticism was simply experiencing the gifts of the Spirit by grace?

My question is why have some special name for it, other than just preaching it? Or was the name applied to them derisively, after the happy hippies moved in?

 

[robert derrick]

A Person led by the Spirit is not in control of what He is doing but is submitted to the Spirit. As An example of this a person led by the Spirit may speak to a Brother or sister in Christ and not know what they are saying but the Words are coming directly from the Holy Spirit to that person... That is God with us Speaking through us to that person. In Fundamentalist circles this is known as unction or the anointing that is imparted to elders of the church called to Preach or teach. Often times you will hear a Pastor pray for the unction to Speak and preach. In other words it is not so much about lack of self control, but rather increasing in Holy Spirit control, that we are used as vessels of Honor for God. Self control hinders this from occurring.

Not so much about lack of self control, but rather increasing in Holy Spirit control.

So, try not speaking in negative terms of 'self-control', which is contrary to Scripture, and simply say we freely speak by the Spirit, being in subjection to God.

Self control hinders this from occurring.

Self control doesn't hinder anything. Fear, worry, trying to please men and not serve Christ: these are things of unbelief and hinder liberty in the Spirit.

a person led by the Spirit may speak to a Brother or sister in Christ and not know what they are saying but the Words are coming directly from the Holy Spirit to that person...

If we do prophecy in an unknown tongue, there must be an interpreter, else we are to keep silent, and do so for our own edification in our own homes.

Speaking in tongues 'over' someone is only edifying oneself in the Spirit, without really doing anything for anyone else.

It may feel good, and others may even appreciate it, but it is useless to help in time of need.

 

[Hidden In Him]

And so original charismaticism was simply experiencing the gifts of the Spirit by grace?

Mmm... no, the original move in the modern era is generally attributed to the Azusa St. Revival in 1906 (though many would dispute this, claiming that it was actually earlier than that), but if so those people experienced the gifts because they were completely sold out to fasting and prayer, and for months and years before the outpouring finally came. And when it came, they were still so devoted to prayer that this is what you would see when you walked into a service. No one spoke except by the leading of the Holy Spirit, and until He did, they just persisted continually in prayer. Preachers who tried to enter the services and take over by just starting to preach slowly started coming under intense conviction to sit back down and be quiet, because they were out of line and in disobedience to God. No one had to say a word to them. They just came under conviction, stopped preaching and went quiet.

My question is why have some special name for it, other than just preaching it? Or was the name applied to them derisively, after the happy hippies moved in?

Actually, I'd have to go look, but I believe the original early name was simply "Pentecostal," but the name "Charismatic" was adopted by the Catholics who got baptized in the Holy Spirit, to identify themselves as Pentecostals while yet distance themselves from the Pentecostals on doctrines. But I'd have to go back and check. It later simply came to be adopted as a blanket term for all who believed the gifts were still for today.

 

[rockytopva]

I will take all the Holy Spirit God's grace will pour upon me. From the Pilgrims Progress...

Christian and Hopeful then went on until they came to the Delectable Mountains, which belong to the Lord of that city of which we have spoken of before. So they went up to the mountains to behold the gardens, the orchards, the vineyards and the fountains of water. There they also washed themselves—and freely drank and ate from the vineyards.

This, to me, symbolizes those being immersed in the blessings of God. I believe getting immersed, or drunk as some on put it, in the Holy Spirit is a desirable thing to obtain.

 

[robert derrick]

The whole happy hippy charismaticism is about false spirituality:

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Being ignorant of Scriptural spirituality, they make themselves foolish by uncontrolled 'spirituality', which is more akin to devilish possession and cultish channelling, than anything to do with the blessings and gifts of God.

Scriptural spirituality has everything to do with walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh, and nothing to do with open shows of display in the flesh.

We do righteousness by the Spirit as He is righteous, and we restore one another by the Spirit from sins with compassion, and with ostracism if necessary.

The gifts of the Spirit in prophecy, tongues, healings, etc... are only for them of sound mind in the faith of Jesus.

Those who do righteousness and are of a sound mind know when a silly show is being put on.

The days of visitation are come, the days of recompence are come; Israel shall know it: the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad, for the multitude of thine iniquity, and the great hatred. (Hos 9)

 

[robert derrick]

I will take all the Holy Spirit God's grace will pour upon me. From the Pilgrims Progress...

Christian and Hopeful then went on until they came to the Delectable Mountains, which belong to the Lord of that city of which we have spoken of before. So they went up to the mountains to behold the gardens, the orchards, the vineyards and the fountains of water. There they also washed themselves—and freely drank and ate from the vineyards.

This, to me, symbolizes those being immersed in the blessings of God. I believe getting immersed, or drunk as some on put it, in the Holy Spirit is a desirable thing to obtain.

For Pilgrim Progress fans maybe, but since there is no 'drunk' in the Spirit in Scripture, then there is no such thing to obtain.

With a sound mind in doing the righteousness of God, we then know how to be abased and to abound.

The abounding of God has everything to do with knowledge of the truth, in love toward one another, in faithful obedience to God, in the sufferings of Christ, unto every good work, in walking to please God, in adding knowledge, virtue, temperance, godliness, and charity to our fait, and in material blessing.

Nothing about abounding in 'spiritual' demonstration. The power and demonstration of the Spirit is to prophecy the knowledge of the truth int he doctrine of Christ, and in healings and miracles of the faith.

Spiritual displays are more akin to the beast that works miracles in the sight of man, rather than the faithful that do the works of God, through which works God is able to bless all that believe Jesus.

Trying to 'obtain' spiritual gifts is the problem. We don't seek to obtain them, but rather we seek to believe them when given of God, and do accordingly in the church.

Simon the magician sought to obtain them by pay.

 

[robert derrick]

Mmm... no, the original move in the modern era is generally attributed to the Azusa St. Revival in 1906 (though many would dispute this, claiming that it was actually earlier than that), but if so those people experienced the gifts because they were completely sold out to fasting and prayer, and for months and years before the outpouring finally came. And when it came, they were still so devoted to prayer that this is what you would see when you walked into a service. No one spoke except by the leading of the Holy Spirit, and until He did, they just persisted continually in prayer. Preachers who tried to enter the services and take over by just starting to preach slowly started coming under intense conviction to sit back down and be quiet, because they were out of line and in disobedience to God. No one had to say a word to them. They just came under conviction, stopped preaching and went quiet.


Actually, I'd have to go look, but I believe the original early name was simply "Pentecostal," but the name "Charismatic" was adopted by the Catholics who got baptized in the Holy Spirit, to identify themselves as Pentecostals while yet distance themselves from the Pentecostals on doctrines. But I'd have to go back and check. It later simply came to be adopted as a blanket term for all who believed the gifts were still for today.

Sounds good. The Isuzu Street revival was the outpouring of the Holy Ghost upon them that sought the Lord diligently with all their heart.

And from what you say about the upstaging preachers, that is in line with Paul's admonition for prophets not to hog the gathering for themselves. (1 Cor 14)

And speaking one by one in turn is certainly what is greatly missing from the standard 'one speaker' church services developed over time. They are single speaker dominated, which leads to dominating the faith, as well as grieving the Spirit.

It gets so bad, that they even do away with singing the old hymnals as a body, and start becoming stage performers, who then go on trying to 'get people' to join in! But, as you say, if they would just learn to shut up and let everyone sing from the hymnals, then the outpouring of the Spirit, which they covet, would become far greater in the freedom of the gathering:

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Where there is liberty, there is the Spirit to bless with all spiritual blessings.

The organized constructs of man in the assembly of the saints is a killer of the Spirit for sure.

It later simply came to be adopted as a blanket term for all who believed the gifts were still for today.

The term ought be Christian.

Which was originally a derogatory name upon all them little christs running around doing good and speaking and singing in the Spirit.

It began in Antioch where Paul was ministering the faith of Jesus and the Spirit of Christ.

 

[amadeus]

Yes but David was getting the Ark so he was probably over joyed. I don't see that the spirit of God has ever made me feel to dance. Just the contrary, I felt reverent in Love and Peace.

Not every person is performing the same function as a member of the Body of Christ, nor is every person in exactly the same place on the highway of holiness moving toward the Light. There are babies on milk as well as mature folk partaking of meat. We need to be listening of God all of the time.

I used to dance before the Lord frequently. Then God got hold of me about that with the question as whether I was always following His direction. I started praying about it... especially when it came to dancing. In the world I was not into dancing. When I was in school, I never attended any dances.

God answered me on this and I stayed in touch with Him about it. Sometimes, yes, dancing was absolutely right. Whereas at other times, no! I do not speak for anyone else. God knows their direction and they should be asking of Him so as to do the right thing all of the time.

Give God the glory!

 

[Cassandra]

Trying to 'obtain' spiritual gifts is the problem. We don't seek to obtain them, but rather we seek to believe them when given of God, and do accordingly in the church.

I saw Sid Roth try to teach people how to speak in tongues. If it is a gift, why do you need some dude to teach it to ya? Mercy is a gift too--where do I sign up?
Nope. Those are gifts of the Spirit. You can't pick and choose.
There was a guy in here yesterday trying to get folks to say Hare Krishna a bunch of times over and over--reminds me of the training for tongues.
Mantras--same thing .

 

[Raccoon1010]

Not every person is performing the same function as a member of the Body of Christ, nor is every person in exactly the same place on the highway of holiness moving toward the Light. There are babies on milk as well as mature folk partaking of meat. We need to be listening of God all of the time.

I used to dance before the Lord frequently. Then God got hold of me about that with the question as whether I was always following His direction. I started praying about it... especially when it came to dancing. In the world I was into dancing. When I was in school I never attended any dances.

God answered me on this and I stayed in touch with Him about it. Sometimes, yes, dancing was absolutely right. Whereas at other times, no! I do not speak for anyone else. God knows their direction and they should be asking of Him so as to do the right thing all of the time.

Give God the glory!

I can understand that, thanks amadeus.

 

[amadeus]

I once told a person I was doing missionary work for that God can do no evil and Satan can do no good. God then confirmed that fact by filling me with the Holy Spirit of Love and Peace that lasted for hours. So yes I have spoken for the Holy Spirit before. And yes I believe that one of the gifts is to speak in tongues which is to learn other languages. But that is not failing to understand what you are speaking and thinking you are speaking in tongues when your not. God is not the author of confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:33

New King James Version

33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Indeed, our God is not the author of confusion, but sometimes the tongues are spoken through us for God's purposes. He is not confused and if we are on His side, we will not be confused.

For some there is an interpreter and for some there is no interpreter as with the proverbs Jesus spoke to the people around him. His answer also may be applied to tongues and the understanding of tongues by others...

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:10-15

I talk to God in tongues daily. For me it is a necessary part of my communication and connection with Him.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It gets so bad, that they even do away with singing the old hymnals as a body, and start becoming stage performers, who then go on trying to 'get people' to join in! But, as you say, if they would just learn to shut up and let everyone sing from the hymnals, then the outpouring of the Spirit, which they covet, would become far greater in the freedom of the gathering

Well the hymnals part is a new take on this argument, but yes, in general I agree. And while the hymnals can be too staged for me as well sometimes, they always have contained more substantive word content in the lyrics, which was also clearly present in New Testament worship (Colossians 3:16).

I think the strongest part of your argument is the problem of single speaker preaching, where only one man is doing all the ministry. This is highly contrary to the New Testament pattern, where everyone was making a contribution to the service (1 Corinthians 14:26), and where each member had his or her own gift through which to do so (1 Corinthians 12:4-30).

 

[David H.]

Not so much about lack of self control, but rather increasing in Holy Spirit control.

So, try not speaking in negative terms of 'self-control', which is contrary to Scripture, and simply say we freely speak by the Spirit, being in subjection to God.

Self control hinders this from occurring.

Self control doesn't hinder anything. Fear, worry, trying to please men and not serve Christ: these are things of unbelief and hinder liberty in the Spirit.

a person led by the Spirit may speak to a Brother or sister in Christ and not know what they are saying but the Words are coming directly from the Holy Spirit to that person...

If we do prophecy in an unknown tongue, there must be an interpreter, else we are to keep silent, and do so for our own edification in our own homes.

Speaking in tongues 'over' someone is only edifying oneself in the Spirit, without really doing anything for anyone else.

It may feel good, and others may even appreciate it, but it is useless to help in time of need.

Your argument is largely a semantic one. When the Spirit is in control, We are not in control. To maintain self control and refuse to allow the Spirit to control us is to quench the Spirit, Thus self control in this aspect Hinders and quenches the Spirit.

The Bible speaks highly of self control, but it is not in regard to the Operation of the Spirit, but rather with regard to the lusts of the flesh. I am not opposed to self control in this respect. In fact some charismatics are operating in the lusts of the flesh, when they are "drunk" in the Spirit, and this should be brought to attention. But the Spirit will not move in you if you are not yourself submitted to the Spirit.

This negative self control that quenches the Holy Spirit is based in the rational mind of man, the carnal mind, and man's faith in his ability to control himself by his own strength and will. Repentance is the realization that we cannot please God by our own efforts and that we then turn to the cross and surrender to the cleansing power of the Blood. Thus Faith itself begins with an admission that we are unable to control our destiny of our own strength, but need the cross to do so. It is the same with the sanctification process in our lives.... the more we try to please God the More we fail (If you read Paul's account in Romans 7 you will see this), and it is not until we surrender control and walk in the Spirit, that the Spirit begins to work in us to transform us, (the Romans 8 Christian).

Many a fundamentalist out there are good at quenching the Spirit by their rational mind (Carnal mind) and could learn a thing or two from the Pentecostals on how their faith in their rationality is built on the pride of man, and how they too can walk in the Spirit. This does not negate the fact that there are charlatans in Pentecostalism as there are in fundamentalism trying to discredit what is good and right in both sides.... Satan has a way of doing this through his tares in the church.

 

[TEXBOW]

Well the hymnals part is a new take on this argument, but yes, in general I agree. And while the hymnals can be too staged for me as well sometimes, they always have contained more substantive word content in the lyrics, which was also clearly present in New Testament worship (Colossians 3:16).

I think the strongest part of your argument is the problem of single speaker preaching, where only one man is doing all the ministry. This is highly contrary to the New Testament pattern, where everyone was making a contribution to the service (1 Corinthians 14:26), and where each member had his or her own gift through which to do so (1 Corinthians 12:4-30).

I've always struggled with reconciling my own experiences growing up in the Assembly of God church and how I understand the scripture now. I will say that the AOG church of my childhood was what I would call low key Charismatic with no running around the pews, dancing or falling out in the floor (at least that I remember). I did experience some very Godly members who on occasion would speak in an unknown tongue and another member would immediately interpret the unknown tongue just spoken. It was very orderly. I know for a fact that it was a very real experience and not manufactured. It seemed to happen to only a few different Church members. It was and felt normal. I do not discount or for one minute believe that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. I think the gifts of tongues and unknown utterance (a prayer language) should be a beautiful and editing experience.

I do think those in the Charismatic churches who display wild behavior are not subject to the Holy Spirit. Running around, passing out and barking like a dog and other nonsense. I'm not sure what Spirit they are under. I find no example of this behavior in the scriptures. I'm convinced this behavior has pushed more people away from God than to God.

Many Pentecostals up and down the Charismatic scale fail to differentiate between known languages and the gift of unknown tongues in the scripture. Not in all cases are tongues referring to unknown prayer language.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I did experience some very Godly members who on occasion would speak in an unknown tongue and another member would immediately interpret the unknown tongue just spoken. It was very orderly. I know for a fact that it was a very real experience and not manufactured. It seemed to happen to only a few different Church members. It was and felt normal. I do not discount or for one minute believe that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased.

Good post. It was the same for me. Orderly. Mature. No histrionics, performances, or carrying on and on. The focus was on the Spirit communicating a specific message...

Sad that things went the direction they did. Makes you feel like a dinosaur now, and I was still in my early twenties and had no idea I was experiencing the good days compared to the way things are now.

In fact, come to think of it, it was in an AoG church that I was first prophesied over. I was sitting in a pew on the back row, and quite angry because this particular preacher wasn't good, and he was being awful again that Sunday. Most UN-anointed sermon I'd ever heard, and everyone wanted out of there. It was almost tangible. But seated next to me was this old woman I had never seen before in church, and every time he preached something remotely good she would shout an "Amen" or something encouraging. Made me even madder, LoL. She was walking in joy in spite of the situation, and I wasn't. I wanted out so bad I could taste it.

Well, the time finally came and he dismissed, and you have never seen a congregation file out of the pews so fast in your life. I was on the back row, and despite being as ready as I could be, the rows ahead of me all jumped up and got out into the isle before I could so I was trapped. But then the old woman (now behind me as I stood up) grabbed my arm, forced me around, looked me in the eyes, and said, "The Lord is going to use you." I was still wanting nothing more than out of there, so I replied, "I know," and turned back around. She then grabbed my arm again, and said, "No, the Lord is GOING TO USE YOU." I said, "I KNOW," visibly upset, Lol. That was the first time her countenance ever changed a little bit, but she still never let go of my arm...

Maybe the Lord was planing even back then there would be some who carried on the tradition of true Pentecostalism, even as it appeared to be dying in the mid-late 1980s.

 

[OzSpen]

I want to present that being in the spirit biblically is not what some folks make it out to be. Particularly that it's not losing control and writhing on the floor.

The very passage people quote to defend losing control does not say anything of the nature. In context Ephesians 5:18-19 says to speak psalms and sing hymns in the description.

And Acts 2, mentions speaking in tounges. Neither passage describes losing control.

Also, we need to take what the rest of scripture has to say about the Holy Spirit because scripture does not contradict itself. Galations 5:22 lists the Spirit's attributes and among those is self control.

TV,

Are you speaking of being "drunk in the Spirit" as equal to crawling around the floor like an ape or barking as a dog?

Oz