Friendly Bible Study - participants must agree to Nicene Creed.

[Carl Emerson]

@Brakelite @amadeus @Azim @Pearl @Rita @Ritajanice @APAK @MA2444 @faithfulness @GTW27 @Berean @rockytopva @quietthinker @ScottA @marks @grace @Oneoff @Hillsage @VictoryinJesus @Angelina @seatts79 @GodsGrace

OK Acts 8 - let's read and reflect - I will wait a day or three and invite input - and make a few comments.

 

[Carl Emerson]

@Brakelite @amadeus @Azim @Pearl @Rita @Ritajanice @APAK @MA2444 @faithfulness @GTW27 @Berean @rockytopva @quietthinker @ScottA @marks @grace @Oneoff @Hillsage @VictoryinJesus @Angelina @seatts79 @GodsGrace

Acts 8...

Paul was Saul - it is interesting to note that like King Saul - he wanted to murder the anointed of God.

Now this martyrdom resulted in the early church scattering - several thousand believers like sparks from a fire - setting the further regions alight.

It is surprising that only the Apostles remained. I guess they remembered that the great commission started there and the work was not finished.

So Philip had a revival in Samaria, folks were responding to the Word, believed, repented and were baptised in water but were not yet baptised in the Holy Spirit. They would have been born again belivers and indwelled by the Spirit but not yet empowered to minister. Peter and John came down to impart this second blessing through the laying on of hands.

Simon Magus offered money to receive this anointing to empower and was rebuked by Peter - ministry and money were not compatible - yet these two are often linked today.

Meantime Philip is being guided by an angel to share the Word with a traveling eunuch who he baptises, and then is bodily transported in the Spirit to another district - Azotus, from where he continued to preach. This was an outstanding event not often spoken about - 'greater things shall Ye do' comes to mind. Not sure that many today would believe in being guided by angels... I recall back in the 70's during the revival in our country, travelling to church in a van and noticing a man I didn't recognise. I asked him if he had been to church before - first time he said - an angel appeared at the foot of my bed and told me to come so here I am...

Your comments on Acts 8 most welcome.

 

[amadeus]

Ac 8:13

Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

He believed, but... what was missing?

Ac 8:21

Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

The Holy Ghost working in him!
Are there any today like this?

 

[marks]

@marks

This is a quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia

A stipend is a fixed pay, salary; retribution for work done; the income of an ecclesiastical living. In canon law stipend is a general designation of means of support (sustentatio congrua or congrua) provided for the clergy. In the early ages of the Church no special provision was made for the maintenance of the clergy. St. Paul, the tent-maker, set the example (1 Corinthians 4:12) of earning his own livelihood. In imitation of him many clerics worked at some craft or followed some profession, living by the labour of their own hands. Even in the fifth and sixth centuries there were bishops, priests, and deacons, who in keeping with the advice of the Fourth Council of Carthage (a. 398, cann. 52, 53) supported themselves by their own labour. Early legislation (Canon. Apost., can. 6), which forbade the clergy to take up certain occupations and professions, is an indication that clerics sought to maintain themselves. Many of the laity, however, even from the beginning, were quick to follow the instructions of Christ and his Apostles (Matthew 10:10; Luke 10:7; 1 Corinthians 9:13; 1 Timothy 5:17-18), founded on the practice in vogue among the Jews (Leviticus 27:30 sq.; Numbers 18:23 sq.; etc.), who gave tithes of all their goods and produce for the sustenance of priests and levites. Thus did the laity provide for the bodily welfare of the clergy in return for the spiritual gifts received through their ministry.

So it seems the 'first love' that sustained the early church leaders grew cold and the Jewish tradition of tithing took over the loving support of members. Later this became a paid position and here we are today.

From John to Ephesus

Revelation 2
4 But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

So it seems this 'support by love' was lost pretty early on.

I'm sorry, I didn't see an alert that you had tagged me.

Catholic sources? Hm.

Scripture says . . .

1 Corinthians 9:2-15 KJV
2) If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
3) Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
4) Have we not power to eat and to drink?
5) Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
6) Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7) Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8) Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9) For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10) Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11) If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12) If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13) Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14) Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
15) But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

Here Paul shows himself an exception, that apparently others did in fact receive support.

Much love!

 

[Carl Emerson]

I'm sorry, I didn't see an alert that you had tagged me.

Catholic sources? Hm.

Scripture says . . .

1 Corinthians 9:2-15 KJV
2) If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
3) Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
4) Have we not power to eat and to drink?
5) Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
6) Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7) Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8) Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9) For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10) Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11) If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12) If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13) Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14) Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
15) But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

Here Paul shows himself an exception, that apparently others did in fact receive support.

Much love!

Yes - they received support - there was no one needy among them.

But being under contract to deliver spiritual service is a different animal in my opinion.

By the way - how soon this became a business practice is a matter of Church History - you wont find that answer in Scripture.

 

[marks]

Yes - they received support - there was no one needy among them.

But being under contract to deliver spiritual service is a different animal in my opinion.

To me that's just an arrangement made for the convenience of all. I don't have a problem with a pastor receiving a salary. Biblically there is no stigma against that, it's approved and lauded.

Of course anything can be misused.

Much love!

 

[Carl Emerson]

To me that's just an arrangement made for the convenience of all. I don't have a problem with a pastor receiving a salary. Biblically there is no stigma against that, it's approved and lauded.

Of course anything can be misused.

Much love!

Being under financial obligation to deliver a Spiritual Service is the problem.

I have first hand knowledge of the stress one can come under to deliver a sermon when the personal communion with Him is lost.

This leads to dishing up second hand 'inspiration' which God hates.

 

[marks]

Being under financial obligation to deliver a Spiritual Service is the problem.

I have first hand knowledge of the stress one can come under to deliver a sermon when the personal communion with Him is lost.

This leads to dishing up second hand 'inspiration' which God hates.

You're making some assumptions there that don't necessarily apply. Just getting a paycheck doesn't snip one's connection to God. Are you saying then that no pastor should have a steady pay? Maybe take up a collection at the end of the sermon and people can pay according to how well they liked it?

If you don't have the right guy as a pastor, paying or not paying him isn't going to change that. If you have the right guy as a pastor, paying him or not paying him isn't going to change that.

I think we need to differentiate between the use and misuse, and not throw out the baby with the bathwater, particularly when Scripture is clear that paying pastors is perfectly fine, and permits them to apply themselves 100% to their mission.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 KJV
17) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18) For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

This even says pay them double. We shouldn't condemn what God does not.

Much love!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Just getting a paycheck doesn't snip one's connection to God

Who said that ???

Sadly your reply indicates you have not understood my position.

 

[marks]

Who said that ???

Sadly your reply indicates you have not understood my position.

Being under financial obligation to deliver a Spiritual Service is the problem.

I have first hand knowledge of the stress one can come under to deliver a sermon when the personal communion with Him is lost.

This leads to dishing up second hand 'inspiration' which God hates.

Maybe you meant something else?

I've preached/teached through thick and thin, with and without a "feeling" of being prepared. As far as the stress level goes, it's a matter of faith, as I see it.

I had a memorable lesson in that one time when I was going to be teaching concerning relying on the power of the Holy Spirit in ministry. No amount of study and prayer was yielding the lesson I wanted to present. I had nothing! At one point I had to laugh, I realized God was making me rely completely on His Spirit, no advance helps!

Evening service was starting in half an hour, and there was just time for the pre-service prayer meeting. No one else was joining me that day. And that was when I felt God was ready, so I picked up a pen, and it all flowed out, notes for my message, the points to make, the Scripture references, all of it!

I'm not sure what you mean by "second hand inspiration", I think you mean fishing around through old sermon notes looking for something to use? I don't even see a problem with that, I've seen God use that to produce the message I believe He wanted. I've learned that God leads in all sorts of ways, and we are to follow the bouncing ball.

Whether we are in a paid or unpaid ministry position our heart should be the same, trusting God for the fruit of our labors, and trusting God to provide for our needs. Each in it's own place.

For me, it's not about, I have to get up there and preach so I can get my paycheck, it's a matter of, I'm preaching according to God's plan for me to serve others, I'll do the best I can regardless of how I feel or what's going on with me, because I serve the Living God.

It's all about faith and obedience.

I've had times where I've taught Bible study after having a horrible fleshy-mind day, coming with a guilty mind, shamed heart, knowing how far off track I've been, then to see the Holy Spirit start pouring words out of my mouth, because it's His ministry not mine, and if I'm not up to snuff, He is, and is perfectly capable of working out His will.

Being a Bible teacher is first about teaching me.

Much love!

 

[Carl Emerson]

@Brakelite @amadeus @Azim @Pearl @Rita @Ritajanice @APAK @MA2444 @faithfulness @GTW27 @Berean @rockytopva @quietthinker @ScottA @marks @grace @Oneoff @Hillsage @VictoryinJesus @Angelina @seatts79 @GodsGrace

Anyone else like to comment on Acts 8 ???

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ac 8:13

Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

He believed, but... what was missing?

Ac 8:21

Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

The Holy Ghost working in him!
Are there any today like this?

Sounds like repentance was missing, yet one would have thought someone of Philips calibre would have realised this and not baptised him.

Can you expand on your second point please.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Brakelite @amadeus @Azim @Pearl @Rita @Ritajanice @APAK @MA2444 @faithfulness @GTW27 @Berean @rockytopva @quietthinker @ScottA @marks @grace @Oneoff @Hillsage @VictoryinJesus @Angelina @seatts79 @GodsGrace

Dear friends,

I was in a car smash today but not injured Praise God...

We live close to the edge, and it was our only good car needed for work.

The car was slowly rolling uncontrollably down a slope and I managed to avoid hitting cars and people and in the moment avoided a gas main and a large plate glass window in a shop front but crashed into a concrete pillar.

I was in shock and we were surrounded by wonderful people with loving support - that was amazing - I will never forget it.

May we not miss any aspect of the blessing He intends to bring out of this tragic accident.

We live another day by His grace so Acts 8 will be next !!!

Happy to hear that you're OK Carl.
Thank You God.

My brother and his wife of 38 years were on their honeymoon in Arizona.
She was driving and she was sleepy but she kept driving and my brother had dozed off.
They went off a cliff but were stopped by trees and lived to tell about it. It was terrible.
It'll take time but you'll eventually get over this.
We know Who to thank when things go well !
GG

 

[GodsGrace]

@Brakelite @amadeus @Azim @Pearl @Rita @Ritajanice @APAK @MA2444 @faithfulness @GTW27 @Berean @rockytopva @quietthinker @ScottA @marks @grace @Oneoff @Hillsage @VictoryinJesus @Angelina @seatts79 @GodsGrace

Anyone else like to comment on Acts 8 ???

What happened to 7??

Will get on this in the morning.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sounds like repentance was missing, yet one would have thought someone of Philips calibre would have realised this and not baptised him.

Can you expand on your second point please.

You know...I'm not getting alerts for this.
Guess I'll just check in every now and then.
Didn't get an alert re your accident either....

 

[David in NJ]

Welcome to the Friendly Bible Study.

Please let's initially chat together - maybe a short introduction from each one.

We have 8 so far - I was unsure about Hepzibah and there might be a couple more.

Just freely share about yourself - we want to build fellowship as a foundation for joining together around the Scripture.

Sandi my wife and I are just North of Auckland New Zealand, We are on a remote farm in beautiful surroundings and amazing bird life. Our 5 children are off our hands and we are looking to move into His purpose for these latter years.

Sandi specialises in Postnatal Care she graduated in her 50's in midwifery.

I have a background in electronics and am launching a new sensor to record wind speed and direction. I entered an innovation competition at the local university and won a place to receive support for a startup company to bring the sensor to market.

This is the same guy that was shipwrecked in life in the 70's (my mind was broken from drugs and such) and by His grace was rebuilt over a 7 year period. I partly joined this forum and CF to share my testimony and give the grand children something to read about my life.

What is a "nicene creed" ???

 

[Carl Emerson]

What is a "nicene creed" ???

This Creed is agreed to by main stream churches...

The Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father; through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven, was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic (universal) and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Note: The reference to 'Catholic' has nothing to do with the RC church - it is an old english word simply meaning 'Universal'.

 

[amadeus]

Sounds like repentance was missing, yet one would have thought someone of Philips calibre would have realised this and not baptised him.

Can you expand on your second point please.

Can a person believe truly in God and His Way without fully repenting? From my own experience, I would have to say, yes. I was baptized when I first repented at age 32, but there was more work to be done in me. More repentance on my part was needed. To repent is to turn around. Anyone who repents turns around toward God, but how far away from God does he remain? How much closer, with God's help, is he able to come? There is certainly no limit with God, but with us?

 

[David in NJ]

This Creed is agreed to by main stream churches...

The Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father; through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven, was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic (universal) and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Note: The reference to 'Catholic' has nothing to do with the RC church - it is an old english word simply meaning 'Universal'.

Well, that is very Good.

Except for:
*We believe in one holy catholic (universal) and apostolic Church.
*We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
*We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.


Get rid of those last three (*** )phrases/sentences and replace those with:

There is One Church which is the Body of Christ and consists only of those who belong to Christ from every tribe, tongue and nation.
The Members of Christ's Body are Placed in Christ from the Father thru the New Birth of the Holy Spirit from within.
Water baptism is only an outward profession of faith in Christ.
We Embrace the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as the Second Promise of the FATHER which was purchased for us by the Precious Sinless Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
We look for His Second Coming whereby He will Resurrect those who died in Him as well as those who are alive at His Coming.
AMEN AMEN AMEN

 

[Carl Emerson]

Can a person believe truly in God and His Way without fully repenting? From my own experience, I would have to say, yes. I was baptized when I first repented at age 32, but there was more work to be done in me. More repentance on my part was needed. To repent is to turn around. Anyone who repents turns around toward God, but how far away from God does he remain? How much closer, with God's help, is he able to come? There is certainly no limit with God, but with us?

Yes - you raise an interesting issue...

Being a prodigal son I was way off track for about 11 years and returned. Also when I was Baptised in the Spirt this was accompanied by deep repentance, yet I was born again 17 years earlier.

Seeing the gulf between His Holiness and my heart of flesh it was clear that dealing with everything would take much more than a lifetime.

So repentance became an attitude - a willingness to change - never ceasing.