Friendly Bible Study - participants must agree to Nicene Creed.

[Johann]

I worded my response carefully.

Jesus is well able to instruct His followers, by the Holy Spirit, in this age, to flee from impending danger, if the circumstances require it.

The scriptural record of Words first delivered to the followers of Jesus, is recorded for the benefit believers of all ages.

So am I brother-in fact, if you have read the Pauline epistles we are not to flee from impending disasters but to MEET them full on.
Paul frequently writes about the reality of suffering, trials, and hardships that believers will face in their journey of faith.

Romans 5:3-5 (NKJV)
"And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

Paul emphasizes that tribulations lead to spiritual growth and development, producing perseverance and ultimately hope through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:17-18 (NKJV)
"...and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us."

Paul teaches that suffering is a necessary part of sharing in the glory of Christ. The future glory far outweighs the present sufferings.

2 Corinthians 1:3-5 (NKJV)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ."

Paul describes how believers partake in the sufferings of Christ but also receive abundant comfort from God, which enables them to comfort others.

2 Corinthians 4:8-11 (NKJV)
"We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed—always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh."

Paul reflects on the continual struggles of ministry, yet emphasizes that through these trials, the life and power of Jesus are made evident.

2 Corinthians 6:4-5 (NKJV)
"But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings..."

Paul lists various hardships that he and his fellow ministers have endured as part of their service to God, showing that suffering is part of their ministry.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10 (NKJV)
"And He said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

Paul recounts how he finds strength in his weaknesses and sufferings because they allow Christ's power to be manifested in him.

Philippians 1:29 (NKJV)
"For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake..."

Paul tells the Philippians that suffering for Christ is part of the calling of believers, not just faith.

Philippians 3:10 (NKJV)
"...that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death..."

Paul speaks of participating in the sufferings of Christ as a way of knowing Him more deeply and being transformed into His likeness.

1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 (NKJV)
"...that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this. For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know."

Paul reminds the Thessalonians that suffering and tribulation were expected, something he had already warned them about.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 (NKJV)
"...so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer..."

Paul encourages the Thessalonian believers, praising their endurance through persecution and suffering, seeing it as proof of their faith and worthiness of God’s kingdom.

2 Timothy 1:8 (NKJV)
"Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God..."

Paul urges Timothy to embrace suffering for the sake of the gospel, emphasizing the role of God's power in enduring hardship.

2 Timothy 2:3 (NKJV)
"You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ."

Paul exhorts Timothy to endure hardships, comparing the Christian life to that of a soldier who faces struggles and challenges with discipline.

2 Timothy 3:12 (NKJV)
"Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution."

Paul makes it clear that living a godly life will inevitably lead to persecution.


Paul consistently teaches that suffering, trials, and hardships are an integral part of the Christian life. Believers are called to endure these challenges with faith and hope, knowing that suffering produces spiritual growth, allows for deeper fellowship with Christ, and is a way to partake in Christ’s own sufferings. These experiences are not meant to be avoided but are to be understood as part of the journey of faith.

All those who live a godly life will be---?

Like you, I choose my words carefully-for His glory, not mine-should you wish, we can go deeper but I fear correction is not well received @Carl Emerson as we are both in need for correction.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God, and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in doing what is right,
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be perfectly fit, thoroughly equipped for every good enterprise.

Correction -- Setting a person on a straight course.

Instruction -- Training, instructing believers in God's ways.

Doctrine = tells us what is right.
Reproof = tells us what is not right
Correction = tell how to get right
Instruction = tells how to stay right.

Let me know if you want me to post on your thread.
Shalom
J.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes - I this relate to...

Can you describe how you personally came to this realisation - It sounds like you must have had some encounter with Him.

It's been a growing awareness Carl. The zoom studies I attend hosted by Ian Hartley (which by the way, you are welcome to participate) have been immensely helpful. When I say 'immensely' I mean, Ian has this focus and cannot but help pointing folk to what I have come to learn are critical factors.
There is so much more but suffice it to say, come, see for yourself how we explore.

 

[quietthinker]

Well, speaking to our interactions it was never about "you not being up to scratch" or "trying to separate you from Christ" but rather, revealing to you the error in your belief. The doctrine of Universalism undermines every teaching the Lord gave, in terms of the cost of discipleship through to the coming judgement. Many times you have been shown this truth by many forum members and yet you persist. So while you can speak of your love for Abba, unfortunately it's a love without understanding.

Universalism?....ahhhh, the erroneous assumptions keep rolling in!

 

[St. SteVen]

Universalism?....ahhhh, the erroneous assumptions keep rolling in!

Say what? (good timing?)
"Universalism undermines every teaching the Lord gave, in terms of the cost of discipleship through to the coming judgement." - @face2face
Is that a fact? If you ignorant about UR we can help.

[

 

[face2face]

All members of this thread must agree with the Nicene Creed to avoid the bun fights so prevalent on the forum and create a safe space to explore various issues without aggression or judgement.

Unless a member here openly states a theological position in contradiction to the creed participation is welcome.

Impossible to agree with a man made doctrine. Everyone knows my position on the creeds and councils of men.
F2F

 

[quietthinker]

Say what? (good timing?)
"Universalism undermines every teaching the Lord gave, in terms of the cost of discipleship through to the coming judgement." - @face2face
Is that a fact? If you ignorant about UR we can help.

[

Perhaps a definition of 'Universalism' is appropriate. We can go from there.

 

[quietthinker]

Say what? (good timing?)
"Universalism undermines every teaching the Lord gave, in terms of the cost of discipleship through to the coming judgement." - @face2face
Is that a fact? If you ignorant about UR we can help.

[

Perhaps a definition of 'Universalism' is appropriate. We can go from there.

 

[St. SteVen]

Perhaps a definition of 'Universalism' is appropriate. We can go from there.

I just weighed in when I saw your post. I don't want to disrupt the Bible Study.
But a quick definition may be in order.

Christian Universalism, sometimes known as UR which can stand for Universal Reconciliation, or Universal Restoration,
or Ultimate Redemption, is the belief that all of humankind will be reconciled/restored/redeemed in the end.
This is not a get-out-of-hell-free card. Everyone will will be evaluated/corrected/restored/redeemed.
There will a whole age of restoration. Known as Apokatastasis in the early church.

Apokatastasis in the Bible​

I thought Apokatastasis was only a theological term from the early church. Now I come to find out that it is in the Bible as a word in the NT Greek text. Thanks to my good friend and dear brother @Chadrho for pointing it out. Here it is. Acts 3:21 NIV Heaven must receive him until the time...

Apokatastasis in the early church​

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Ultimate Redemption, Ultimate Reconciliation, UR... There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians...

[

 

[face2face]

Correction -- Setting a person on a straight course.

Instruction -- Training, instructing believers in God's ways.

Doctrine = tells us what is right.
Reproof = tells us what is not right
Correction = tell how to get right
Instruction = tells how to stay right.

Let me know if you want me to post on your thread.
Shalom
J.

Like that J. don't mind if I grab that one thanks

 

[face2face]

I just weighed in when I saw your post. I don't want to disrupt the Bible Study.

a sincere moment for you St.

 

[face2face]

Perhaps a definition of 'Universalism' is appropriate. We can go from there.

I think you and your buddies have quite enough threads on this server with all your Uni nonsense.

Lets press on with the Study of the Acts of Christ through the Apostles - the real facts!

F2F

 

[face2face]

"It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables." Acts 6:2

@Carl Emerson and members

There is a lesson for every generation of believers in noting the manner in which the apostles applied this general principle.

All Believers should correctly understand and assess:

[1] Their correct priorities in service to God; and

[2] Their capabilities and their limitations

"Body" is made up of many "parts," this comes into this discussion. I've found throughout my service, many do not understand their talents and capabilities which results in unfulfilled disciples.

I would be interested in hearing from those willing forum members, whether they know their role in the Masters service, or are they struggling to find a place within the body of Christ? (some lost within and without)

Some are unable to understand that there is a role for them to observe in his service, considering themselves to be of little worth to the body.

Others may feel themselves competent and proficient to a degree that is unrelated to their actual aptitude. An example might a believer who considers themsleves a mouth (speaker) but would be more suited to being an arm.

One of the great tragedies of these present times is that we live in a world of mediocrity & apathy. Recently I was listening to studies given by reformists back in the late 1800's and I was astounded at their use of language and depth of knowledge and understanding. It's no doubt we have lowered the bar.

What is accepted as the norm is a far cry from what we are reading in Acts 6.

As soon as you lower the standards in service be it mouth, leg, arm and fingers the community will pay a heavy price for their apathy and lack of concern.

This is why the first century believers were all responsible for studying of the Word of God, and to upholding the purity of the Gospel and the righteousness of Yahweh.

Acts calls this, "The Way" and "The Hope of Israel" and being the purest form of the Gospel, as preached to Abraham (for the most, this orginal Gospel has been lost to many, but it can be found from the book of the Acts of the Apostles).

The men who were to be chosen to assist the apostles, though selected by the brethren, were to be "appointed" by the apostles. The disciples were to choose seven brethren of the highest integrity, who were totally dedicated to the Hope of Israel. The apostles would not accept mediocrity in service to Christ, and demanded the very highest standards of spiritual commitment from their brethren.

1 Cor 3:1
1Tim. 3:6
2 Tim 2:2
Heb. 5:12-13;
1 Pet. 1:13-17; 2:2
Rev. 2:7

The apostles would not "leave the Word of God," or neglect their responsibilities to the Truth. Neither should we. Our calling is too high. The One whom we serve is too great to be dishonoured or disregarded.

And the glory that is to come is too precious to be lost.

F2F

 

[Carl Emerson]

So am I brother-in fact, if you have read the Pauline epistles we are not to flee from impending disasters but to MEET them full on.
Paul frequently writes about the reality of suffering, trials, and hardships that believers will face in their journey of faith.

Romans 5:3-5 (NKJV)
"And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

Paul emphasizes that tribulations lead to spiritual growth and development, producing perseverance and ultimately hope through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:17-18 (NKJV)
"...and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us."

Paul teaches that suffering is a necessary part of sharing in the glory of Christ. The future glory far outweighs the present sufferings.

2 Corinthians 1:3-5 (NKJV)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ."

Paul describes how believers partake in the sufferings of Christ but also receive abundant comfort from God, which enables them to comfort others.

2 Corinthians 4:8-11 (NKJV)
"We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed—always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh."

Paul reflects on the continual struggles of ministry, yet emphasizes that through these trials, the life and power of Jesus are made evident.

2 Corinthians 6:4-5 (NKJV)
"But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings..."

Paul lists various hardships that he and his fellow ministers have endured as part of their service to God, showing that suffering is part of their ministry.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10 (NKJV)
"And He said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

Paul recounts how he finds strength in his weaknesses and sufferings because they allow Christ's power to be manifested in him.

Philippians 1:29 (NKJV)
"For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake..."

Paul tells the Philippians that suffering for Christ is part of the calling of believers, not just faith.

Philippians 3:10 (NKJV)
"...that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death..."

Paul speaks of participating in the sufferings of Christ as a way of knowing Him more deeply and being transformed into His likeness.

1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 (NKJV)
"...that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this. For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know."

Paul reminds the Thessalonians that suffering and tribulation were expected, something he had already warned them about.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 (NKJV)
"...so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer..."

Paul encourages the Thessalonian believers, praising their endurance through persecution and suffering, seeing it as proof of their faith and worthiness of God’s kingdom.

2 Timothy 1:8 (NKJV)
"Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God..."

Paul urges Timothy to embrace suffering for the sake of the gospel, emphasizing the role of God's power in enduring hardship.

2 Timothy 2:3 (NKJV)
"You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ."

Paul exhorts Timothy to endure hardships, comparing the Christian life to that of a soldier who faces struggles and challenges with discipline.

2 Timothy 3:12 (NKJV)
"Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution."

Paul makes it clear that living a godly life will inevitably lead to persecution.


Paul consistently teaches that suffering, trials, and hardships are an integral part of the Christian life. Believers are called to endure these challenges with faith and hope, knowing that suffering produces spiritual growth, allows for deeper fellowship with Christ, and is a way to partake in Christ’s own sufferings. These experiences are not meant to be avoided but are to be understood as part of the journey of faith.

All those who live a godly life will be---?

Like you, I choose my words carefully-for His glory, not mine-should you wish, we can go deeper but I fear correction is not well received @Carl Emerson as we are both in need for correction.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God, and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in doing what is right,
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be perfectly fit, thoroughly equipped for every good enterprise.

Correction -- Setting a person on a straight course.

Instruction -- Training, instructing believers in God's ways.

Doctrine = tells us what is right.
Reproof = tells us what is not right
Correction = tell how to get right
Instruction = tells how to stay right.

Let me know if you want me to post on your thread.
Shalom
J.

Excellent Scriptures thanks, Yes - ordained persecution is to be faced in His confidence and empowering.

Life circumstances however can present threats that are to be avoided, and it is up to believers to gain understanding from the Holy Spirit whether to stand or not.

Even Jesus demonstrated this in His own life, here are a few Scriptures to confirm this.

Luke 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

John 10:
39 Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

John 11:
53 So from that day on they made plans to put him to death. 54 Jesus therefore no longer walked openly among the Jews, but went from there to the region near the wilderness, to a town called Ephraim, and there he stayed with the disciples.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Impossible to agree with a man made doctrine. Everyone knows my position on the creeds and councils of men.
F2F

I don't know you - All members of this thread must agree with the Nicene Creed.

This gives us a safe space to explore Scripture together in a friendly way without having to argue fundamental issues.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Perhaps a definition of 'Universalism' is appropriate. We can go from there.

I struggle to see how this relates to Acts 6

and - there should be no dialogue on this topic if members agree to the Nicene Creed.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I just weighed in when I saw your post. I don't want to disrupt the Bible Study.
But a quick definition may be in order.

Christian Universalism, sometimes known as UR which can stand for Universal Reconciliation, or Universal Restoration,
or Ultimate Redemption, is the belief that all of humankind will be reconciled/restored/redeemed in the end.
This is not a get-out-of-hell-free card. Everyone will will be evaluated/corrected/restored/redeemed.
There will a whole age of restoration. Known as Apokatastasis in the early church.

Apokatastasis in the Bible​

I thought Apokatastasis was only a theological term from the early church. Now I come to find out that it is in the Bible as a word in the NT Greek text. Thanks to my good friend and dear brother @Chadrho for pointing it out. Here it is. Acts 3:21 NIV Heaven must receive him until the time...

Apokatastasis in the early church​

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Ultimate Redemption, Ultimate Reconciliation, UR... There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians...

[

Please Park the UR issue unless it comes up on the Bible study.

 

[face2face]

I don't know you - All members of this thread must agree with the Nicene Creed.

This gives us a safe space to explore Scripture together in a friendly way without having to argue fundamental issues.

Carl, the Acts of the Apostles contains no trinatarian language whatsoever, in fact, it places emphasis on the Hope of Israel (monotheistic), which Paul said he was bound. So in terms of it being a safe space, it can't be any safer, if we are to truely seek what is true from a study of Acts.

F2F

 

[Carl Emerson]

Carl, the Acts of the Apostles contains no trinatarian language whatsoever, in fact, it places emphasis on the Hope of Israel (monotheistic), which Paul said he was bound. So in terms of it being a safe space, it can't be any safer, if we are to truely seek what is true from a study of Acts.

F2F

Do you agree with the Nicene Creed?

 

[face2face]

Do you agree with the Nicene Creed?

No, it's influence was Platonic through the works of Origen and Tertullian and earlier philosophers.

This study is concerning the Acts of the Apostles, yes? Not those philosophers which changed the original Gospel?

F2F

 

[Carl Emerson]

@face2face This is a private Bible study set up by the Mods that is friendly and avoids the usual conflicts that dominate the Forum.

We have two rules - no argument on the Trinity and members of this thread must agree on the Nicene Creed.

From your confession, you don't qualify to be among us.