Freed : From Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Pont.

[GodsGrace]

Pelagius was labeled a heretic for his free will teachings.

Total depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. It is the “T” in the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace. Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption” or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.

I didn't read the rest,,,but I agree with the above totally....of course!
This is exactly how I explain total depravity.

Man's inability to seek God.

Except for all the verses I post about how we are to seek God.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).



However, even when the doctrine of total depravity is properly understood, many people will reject the doctrine, but that fact should not surprise us, since the world generally thinks of man as being basically good.

I don't know any Christian that believes this... the common atheist person might.

following has been edited for space.....

Therefore, the idea that man by nature is a depraved sinner runs contrary to most modern religious, psychological and philosophical views of the basic nature of man. But the fact is that the Bible does teach the depravity of the human heart, and the root cause of man’s problem is not the environment he is raised in but his wicked and selfish heart. Properly understood, the doctrine of total depravity will destroy the hopes of those who place their faith in any type of works-based system of salvation and will recognize that God’s sovereign grace is man’s only hope. While the doctrine of total depravity destroys man’s self-righteousness and any misconceptions about man’s ability to be saved through his own free will, it leaves one asking the same question the disciples asked of Jesus in Matthew 19:25-26: “Then who can be saved?” Of course the answer remains the same: “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:25-26).

As the first of the five doctrines of what is called “Calvinism,” the doctrine of total depravity correctly focuses man’s attention on the rest of these “doctrines of grace” which declare the wondrous work of God in the salvation of sinners.
Gotquestions.org

Yes...absolutely,
I've said that calvinism is comprised of 2 main beliefs:
1. man's total depravity causing him to be unable to seek after God.
2. man's absence of free will due to this depravity and thus it's up to God to choose who will be saved.

I find neither in the bible...but too late now, and anyway, we pretty much know how we feel about this.

 

[Bladerunner]

Yes on all.

then why do you doubt?

 

[ProDeo]

then why do you doubt?

I don't doubt, I just reasoned against TULIP, Calvinism and Reformed theology.

I am raised in a (back then) Calvinistic / Reformed country. In my youth I was told that after death God decides where I will end up in Heaven or Hell and that there is no way you can know that in this life because it is God Who decides if you are predestined to belong to the elect or not.

When I came to Christ and started to read the Bible (John 3:16 and many other verses) it became an eyeopener, eternal life is promised, you can know and don't have to live in fear the rest of your life. And I believed it, what a relief....

With the new knowledge I told my lovely grandmother, great news, Jesus says believe in Me and you have eternal life. And she said, no no, you can not say that, nobody but God knows and I reasoned, granny look here and here, but no, she would not hear.

Same happened when I told my father-in-law, a fine man, and an elder in the reformed church, of course he was delighted that I repented but (John 3:16 etc.) and security suffered the same shipwreck, YOU CAN NOT KNOW was the message. My wife and I have sit on his deathbed and the fear in his eyes I will never forget, so sad.

But.... according TULIP they were right, you can not know, a quote -

Unconditional election says that God chooses to save some people and to pass over others. He has a love for some people that He does not have for others.

Nobody can know where he/she ends up after death, only God knows, at least that is according TULIP, Calvinism and Reformed theology.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't doubt, I just reasoned against TULIP, Calvinism and Reformed theology.

I am raised in a (back then) Calvinistic / Reformed country. In my youth I was told that after death God decides where I will end up in Heaven or Hell and that there is no way you can know that in this life because it is God Who decides if you are predestined to belong to the elect or not.

When I came to Christ and started to read the Bible (John 3:16 and many other verses) it became an eyeopener, eternal life is promised, you can know and don't have to live in fear the rest of your life. And I believed it, what a relief....

With the new knowledge I told my lovely grandmother, great news, Jesus says believe in Me and you have eternal life. And she said, no no, you can not say that, nobody but God knows and I reasoned, granny look here and here, but no, she would not hear.

Same happened when I told my father-in-law, a fine man, and an elder in the reformed church, of course he was delighted that I repented but (John 3:16 etc.) and security suffered the same shipwreck, YOU CAN NOT KNOW was the message. My wife and I have sit on his deathbed and the fear in his eyes I will never forget, so sad.

But.... according TULIP they were right, you can not know, a quote -

Unconditional election says that God chooses to save some people and to pass over others. He has a love for some people that He does not have for others.

Nobody can know where he/she ends up after death, only God knows, at least that is according TULIP, Calvinism and Reformed theology.

This is such a great testimony ProDeo.
Europe is very atheistic and there are not many Christians left.
People think they're more intelligent if they believe in science instead of religion/God....
as if the two were different....God made science possible by creating a universe with rules/laws to govern it.

I just want to add that many leave Christianity altogether because of reformed theology.
Calvinism is so difficult to accept when we come to understanding what a loving God we have....
so some change their denomination
and some leave altogether because they cannot accept such an unloving God.

We can know if we are saved.
Jesus said He came to bring a life more abundant.
How could life be abundant if we can't even know if we are saved?

1 Peter 1:8-9
8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

 

[Ritajanice]

We can only know that we are Born Again by Gods Living Witness , his Living Holy Spirit.

We know that we are Born Again in our spirit, that’s where the spiritual rebirth takes place.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I don't doubt, I just reasoned against TULIP, Calvinism and Reformed theology.

I am raised in a (back then) Calvinistic / Reformed country. In my youth I was told that after death God decides where I will end up in Heaven or Hell and that there is no way you can know that in this life because it is God Who decides if you are predestined to belong to the elect or not.

When I came to Christ and started to read the Bible (John 3:16 and many other verses) it became an eyeopener, eternal life is promised, you can know and don't have to live in fear the rest of your life. And I believed it, what a relief....

With the new knowledge I told my lovely grandmother, great news, Jesus says believe in Me and you have eternal life. And she said, no no, you can not say that, nobody but God knows and I reasoned, granny look here and here, but no, she would not hear.

Same happened when I told my father-in-law, a fine man, and an elder in the reformed church, of course he was delighted that I repented but (John 3:16 etc.) and security suffered the same shipwreck, YOU CAN NOT KNOW was the message. My wife and I have sit on his deathbed and the fear in his eyes I will never forget, so sad.

But.... according TULIP they were right, you can not know, a quote -

Unconditional election says that God chooses to save some people and to pass over others. He has a love for some people that He does not have for others.

Nobody can know where he/she ends up after death, only God knows, at least that is according TULIP, Calvinism and Reformed theology.

This is not what the Reformed/Calvinism teaches.

I do not know of a Calvinist or Reformed who believes that they cannot know that they are the elect and not know they will end up in heaven. They do not even believe they can loose their salvation.

The elect (regenerate) have eternal security.

John 6:39-40: Jesus says, “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 ‘For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.’”

John 10:27-28: Jesus assures His followers, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.”

Romans 8:29-30: God’s purpose is to justify and glorify those He has chosen, “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He might be the firstborn among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

Ephesians 6:18: Paul exhorts believers to “Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.”

Philippians 1:6: Paul affirms that God “who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.”

2 Corinthians 13:13: The apostle Paul writes, “All the saints salute you.”

In fact, according to TULIP, the P is Perseverance of the Saints.

Perseverance may be defined as that continuous operation of the Holy Spirit in the believer, by which the work of divine grace that is begun in the heart is continued and brought to completion. It is because God never forsakes His work that believers continue to stand to the very end. Louis Berkhof from Systematic Theology (pg. 546)

The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints does not maintain that all those who profess the Christian faith are certain of heaven. It is saints - those who are set apart by the Spirit - who persevere to the end. It is believers - those who are given true, living faith in Christ - who are secure and safe in Him. Many who profess to believe fall away, but they do not fall from grace for they were never in grace. True believers do fall into temptations, and they do commit grievous sins, but these sins do not cause them to lose their salvation or separate them from Christ. The Westminster Confession of Faith gives the following statement on this doctrine:

They whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

This doctrine does not stand alone but is a necessary part of the Calvinistic system of theology. The doctrines of Election and Efficacious Grace logically imply the certain salvation of those who receive these blessings. If God has chosen men absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, and if His Spirit effectively applies to them the benefits of redemption, the inescapable conclusion is that these persons shall be saved. The following verses show that God's people are given eternal life the moment they believe. they are kept by God's power through faith and nothing can separate them from His love. They have been sealed with the Holy Spirit who has been given as the guarantee of their salvation, and they are thus assured of an eternal inheritance.
David Steele & Curtis C Thomas from The Five Points of Calvinism (pg. 56)

Perseverance of the saints is the biblical doctrine that God infallibly preserves in faith all of those he has given to the Son (John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65) so that they are never lost. It maintains that none who are truly redeemed by Christ can be condemned for their sins or finally fall away from the faith. For as the apostle Paul states in Philippians 1:6, “I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”
Monergism.com

 

[Ritajanice]

I do not know of a Calvinist or Reformed who believes that they cannot know that they are the elect and not know they will end up in heaven. They do not even believe they can loose their salvation

I am one of the elect and know 100% that I can never lose my birthright in Christ.
Our birthright as Christians is to inherit all that God is in Christ. The apostle Paul told us that Christ Himself is our allotted inheritance (Col. 1:12; Eph. 1:14), that we are heirs of God (Rom. 8:17), and that we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ” (Eph.


Born of God, His seed remains in my spirit permanently.can never die or perish.

I can only know this by Gods Living testimony.

I have eternal security in Christ, I am a partaker Of his divine nature.

I wonder why some make being Born Again so complicated...

I’m Alive in Spirit, I can’t stand dead talk, do you know what I mean by that @ElectedbyHim ?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I am one of the elect and know 100% that I can never lose my birthright in Christ.
Our birthright as Christians is to inherit all that God is in Christ. The apostle Paul told us that Christ Himself is our allotted inheritance (Col. 1:12; Eph. 1:14), that we are heirs of God (Rom. 8:17), and that we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ” (Eph.


Born of God, His seed remains in my spirit permanently.can never die or perish.

I can only know this by Gods Living testimony.

I have eternal security in Christ, I am a partaker Of his divine nature.

I wonder why some make being Born Again so complicated...

I’m Alive in Spirit, I can’t stand dead talk, do you know what I mean by that @ElectedbyHim ?

Yes I understand and excellent post.

I wonder why some make being Born Again so complicated...

Many simply do not study the Bible or do not even read it.

Or they sit under preaching that is watered down and lacks doctrine and theology.

Some believe the Bible teaches you can lose your salvation, that salvation is maintained by their own effort.

Salvation is maintained by our Sovereign God, if we had to maintain it, we would never get to heaven.

Pretty certain there are other reasons.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

WHERE does it say unsaved men can't seek God?

What do you mean IN THE ABOVE VERSE???
YOU posted the verses.

You are looking for a specific [phraseology and that doesn't appear. It saysthat the unsaved cannot please God.

Seeking god pleases HIm so the unsaved will not seek Him.




1 cor. 2 anmd Romans 3 prove that. but as for the specific phrasing of it? noit doesn't meet yourhighly specific criteria. The prinicipe of your phrasing? It sure does, unless you believe a person seeking God is something that doesn't [please god.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Let's get serious here RN.
IF you think the concept is spelled out in the bible, you're going to have to show us where/how.

I have, you just don't accept the words as literal.

Total Depravity means that a person is so depraved as to be UNABLE TO SEEK GOD and this is why God has to save whoever He wants to save.
If you're going to be reformed....
then at least know reformed doctrine.

That is not the definition posted in over 12 books on TULIP. And if you wish to call me reform one more time, we must end this. I h ave told you over and over I am not reformed nor Calvinist. that is why I am convinced you do not pay attention to my words well and create a straw man of me based on you rpersonal biases and then attack that straw man. I am very much th eopposite of reformes.

Why should I seek others?
YOU are posting to me about reformed/calvinist faith.
And which condemnation?
It's rather difficult to reply to your posts since I have to keep going back to my post.
Could you put my question in your reply? It's easy to do.

I must take it you are dense or have abysmal reading skills. Other than TULIP my theology is the opposite of reformed. Too bad you rather hold to your caricature of me than what I tell you I am.

Show how please.
How is irresistible grace shown in John 6?
(and you don't even give the verse, but we know which one you mean).

First you chide me for repeating verses over and over, now yo chide me for not posting a verse I have posted many times. Please make up you r mind

WHERE/WHEN or in what post did I say that?
God is sovereign.
God gives enough grace TO ALL to give TO ALL the chance to be saved.
Man accepts...seeks God...moves toward God...
God responds with the 3 gifts in Ephesians 2:8-9

If you believe that God would will a person to be saved and that person can resist gods will, then you believe that a persons will when it comes to soteriology is stronger than Gods Will. YOu cannot avoid that reality.

HOW LITTLE you think of God the Creator!

And you were the one whining about being insulted.

Well your ten year old petty li9ttle insults just show you two faced.

What does God's sovereignty have to do with anything
EXCEPT in the reformed faith where God is pitted against man and, like a boxing match, one has to win and one has to lose.

Do you really not know this? And I thought you knew more of the Word of God than you actually do then.

I do not know the reformed faith , nor Calvinism, but until you post me a cite from wither Lutheranism, Calvinism, or Presbyterianism that shows god and man are pitted against each other, this is my last post. You are sounding more uselss like Behold as we progress.


And BTW you are a three pointer unless you reject the following.

1. That mankind is totally lost and unless a person accepts christ they remain lost forever. (T)

2. There is no work or "religious act" a person must do in order to come to Christ. (U)

3. Jesus is the propitiation for teh sins of teh Word but only the elect receive the atonement (erasure of their sin) (L)

4. Once a person is born again, they are saved forever (P)

YOu may not like it, but in this discussion you hold to three or four points of TULIP

 

[Ronald Nolette]

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[ProDeo]

This is not what the Reformed/Calvinism teaches.

Calvin -

1. The covenant of life is not preached equally to all, and among those to whom it is preached, does not always meet with the same reception. This diversity displays the unsearchable depth of the divine judgment, and is without doubt subordinate to God’s purpose of eternal election. But if it is plainly owing to the mere pleasure of God that salvation is spontaneously offered to some, while others have no access to it, great and difficult questions immediately arise, questions which are inexplicable, when just views are not entertained concerning election and predestination. To many this seems a perplexing subject, because they deem it most incongruous that of the great body of mankind some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction.

The teaching of John Calvin, AD 1536

And according to Calvin there is no way to know it who is elect and who is not.

Thus consider the faulty logic of John Calvin :

1. Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
2. Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
3. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
4. Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
5. Tim 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Which is what we all believe.

But the error in John Calvin reasoning is (as declared above) that it's impossible to read the mind of God (who is elect and who is not) and thus includes Paul as well and thus Paul can not know and thus is in error when he wrote that.

See the thinking error?

1Joh 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
1Joh 2:25 And this is the promise that he made to us— eternal life.
1Joh 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Joh 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Was John in error?

NO.

Sorry to leave the rest of your post without comments, I just want to highlight one of the errors in John Calvin teachings, and this one is a biggy.

And of course there are many good points in Tulip.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are looking for a specific [phraseology and that doesn't appear. It saysthat the unsaved cannot please God.

Seeking god pleases HIm so the unsaved will not seek Him.




1 cor. 2 anmd Romans 3 prove that. but as for the specific phrasing of it? noit doesn't meet yourhighly specific criteria. The prinicipe of your phrasing? It sure does, unless you believe a person seeking God is something that doesn't [please god.

You're stating that man cannot seek God.
You keep posting verses that do NOT support your view.

For instance,,,you post a verse that states that all men have sinned....
we all know this.
BUT it does NOT state that man is not able to seek God.

I, OTOH, have posted tens of verses that state that man CAN seek God and even MUST seek God.

Do you not believe the bible?

1 cor 2 and Romans 3 proves nothing and I've explained why.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have, you just don't accept the words as literal.

That is not the definition posted in over 12 books on TULIP. And if you wish to call me reform one more time, we must end this. I h ave told you over and over I am not reformed nor Calvinist. that is why I am convinced you do not pay attention to my words well and create a straw man of me based on you rpersonal biases and then attack that straw man. I am very much th eopposite of reformes.

I must take it you are dense or have abysmal reading skills. Other than TULIP my theology is the opposite of reformed. Too bad you rather hold to your caricature of me than what I tell you I am.

First you chide me for repeating verses over and over, now yo chide me for not posting a verse I have posted many times. Please make up you r mind

If you believe that God would will a person to be saved and that person can resist gods will, then you believe that a persons will when it comes to soteriology is stronger than Gods Will. YOu cannot avoid that reality.


And you were the one whining about being insulted.

Well your ten year old petty li9ttle insults just show you two faced.

Do you really not know this? And I thought you knew more of the Word of God than you actually do then.

I do not know the reformed faith , nor Calvinism, but until you post me a cite from wither Lutheranism, Calvinism, or Presbyterianism that shows god and man are pitted against each other, this is my last post. You are sounding more uselss like Behold as we progress.


And BTW you are a three pointer unless you reject the following.

1. That mankind is totally lost and unless a person accepts christ they remain lost forever. (T)

2. There is no work or "religious act" a person must do in order to come to Christ. (U)

3. Jesus is the propitiation for teh sins of teh Word but only the elect receive the atonement (erasure of their sin) (L)

4. Once a person is born again, they are saved forever (P)

YOu may not like it, but in this discussion you hold to three or four points of TULIP

OK Ronald Nolette
We tried again and you always end up with with personal insults.
Maybe because you get frustrated in not being able to come up with good verses...I don't know why.

But, let me repeat:
I DO NOT HOLD TO ANY OF THE 5 POINTS, THE 7 POINTS OR ANY OTHER POINTS.

You may wish to believe you're not calvinist...
but you walk like a duck.
You talk like a duck.
You wag your tail like a duck.

You must be a duck.

 

[Ritajanice]

@Ronald Nolette

I think this scripture is saying that man can’t seek God ,do you agree?

Some just don’t have eyes to see, imo.

Romans 3:10-12New International Version (NIV) As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Only a Born Again can seek God, because they are his children.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Calvin -

1. The covenant of life is not preached equally to all, and among those to whom it is preached, does not always meet with the same reception. This diversity displays the unsearchable depth of the divine judgment, and is without doubt subordinate to God’s purpose of eternal election. But if it is plainly owing to the mere pleasure of God that salvation is spontaneously offered to some, while others have no access to it, great and difficult questions immediately arise, questions which are inexplicable, when just views are not entertained concerning election and predestination. To many this seems a perplexing subject, because they deem it most incongruous that of the great body of mankind some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction.

The teaching of John Calvin, AD 1536

And according to Calvin there is no way to know it who is elect and who is not.

Thus consider the faulty logic of John Calvin :

1. Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
2. Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
3. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
4. Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
5. Tim 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Which is what we all believe.

But the error in John Calvin reasoning is (as declared above) that it's impossible to read the mind of God (who is elect and who is not) and thus includes Paul as well and thus Paul can not know and thus is in error when he wrote that.

See the thinking error?

1Joh 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
1Joh 2:25 And this is the promise that he made to us— eternal life.
1Joh 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Joh 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Was John in error?

NO.

Sorry to leave the rest of your post without comments, I just want to highlight one of the errors in John Calvin teachings, and this one is a biggy.

And of course there are many good points in Tulip.

I am not sure of the error in that comment.

But the error in John Calvin reasoning is (as declared above) that it's impossible to read the mind of God (who is elect and who is not) and thus includes Paul as well and thus Paul can not know and thus is in error when he wrote that.

But we do not know who the elect is, that is why we share the gospel with everyone. Only the Lord knows whom He predestined (elected) to eternal before the world began.

I do not follow Calvin and just started reading his commentaries a few weeks ago.

TULIP is Biblical and that we cannot lose our salvation. Also all those I know who believe in the Doctrines of Grace know they are elect and are going to heaven.

I have never heard what you had quoted in your earlier post about people not knowing they are elect.

It really is a shame that they believed that.

It definately is not what the Bible teaches.

 

[ProDeo]

But we do not know who the elect is, that is why we share the gospel with everyone. Only the Lord knows whom He predestined (elected) to eternal before the world began.

Exactly [!]

So, how could Paul, John and Jude say so ?

See ?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Exactly [!]

So, how could Paul, John and Jude say so ?

See ?

Forgive my ignorance, but I am not following your thought.

 

[ProDeo]

Forgive my ignorance, but I am not following your thought.

Calvin (in the U of Unconditional Election section of TULIP) states -

Unconditional election says that God chooses to save some people and to pass over others. He has a love for some people that He does not have for others.

And according to Calvin there is no way to know it who is elect and who is not, while Scripture says otherwise, then who is right? I would say Scripture.

Following Calvin you have to live your life in fear because it is impossible to know if you belong to the elect, Scripture teaches otherwise, you can know, dozen of examples, my favorite one : 1 Cor 6:20 - for you were bought with a price. I am His, He has chosen me before the foundation of the world, I don't have to fear.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald Nolette

I think this scripture is saying that man can’t seek God ,do you agree?

Some just don’t have eyes to see, imo.

Romans 3:10-12New International Version (NIV) As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Only a Born Again can seek God, because they are his children.

without reinterpreting it yes that is exactly what it says as written.