Freed : From Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Pont.

[Ronald Nolette]

you have been fat fingering the key board my friend . I do that often myself .
you might be typing fast friend . I do that often myself .

If that is my greatest error, I am doing well with the Master.

 

[Bladerunner]

Reader,

Lets look deeper now., into this "Doctrine of Devils" that started with Calvin, and was evolved into Hyper-Calvinism (TULIP) "the 5 points".

A "TULIP"> a hyper calvinist, a "5-point">.. is one who believes in Calvinism = extremism .

Are you sure you know what is meant to be a Hyper-Calvinist? It is not what you are speaking of.

So, both the Calvinist and the Hyper, have been led to believe that Paul the Apostle is a Calvinist. a 5 Point Hyper Calvinist.
And that is what they TEACH and BELIEVE.

So, lets look at that, and then i'll show you one more, in the next post..

First, lets understand why a person goes to hell and not to heaven..
Its simply because they "died in their sin, never forgiven", and were never born again. So, they died separated from God, by their Sin..
So, that situation, does not allow you to go to Heaven, because you were not forgiven all your sin.... born 'In Christ" as "one with God", before you died.
This is why Jesus told us.....>"YOU, MUST, be born again", and if you are not you are not a Son/Daughter of God when you died, and so your eternity is spent, where those who are not born again Sons/Daughters of God, end up... and that is not in Heaven......
There is only one other option. : HELL.

The above is biblical out of Jesus' Mouth. Remember, all the Words Paul spoke were from Jesus Christ....of Paul but NOT of Paul

Now, Calvin and the Hyper-Calvinist, teach that Paul is a 5-point Hyper Calvinist, as they teach that a few verses that Paul wrote, that they SEE as meaning what Calvin teaches and others who evolved Calvins theology in Hyper-Calvinism.., proves that Paul is a Calvinist, and a Hyper Calvinist.
They believe that a few of Paul's verses teach the 5-points of Hyper- Calvinism as well as Calvinism.

You really have not told us anything about what is a 5-point Calvinist.

So, listen now.... as you have to see this... in your understanding.

If Paul is a Calvinist, then Jesus is a Calvinist....... as Paul RECEIVED all His Theology "not from any man, but from the LORD", Himself.
So, If Paul is a Calvinist, then Jesus is a Calvinist., according to Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism that is "the 5 Points"..(TULIP).

OK, ...believe there is a little more to it than that.

Therefore, if Paul and The Lord Jesus The Christ are both Calvinists, then they will understand "pre-destined" to believe."
They will understand "pre-chosen" to believe"
They will understand "God causes you to believe or you can't".
And they will teach that always.

so, only if you are considered a 5-cavinist as Paul and Jesus are, you will believe in "predestination", You will believe in "election" and You will believe you are a ROBOT...

Now, lets look at some Verses..

1.) "their remainth no more sacrifice for your sin" because you have "willfully sinned", the sin of UNBELIEF... "just as your Father's did".

So, those verses are Hebrews 6 & 10.. .and this one..

“'"You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You ALWAYS RESIST the HOLY Spirit.!""""

Rem, Paul was speaking ONLY to those of the church, those believers and only them.-

So, Hyper Calvinism, teaches that this isn't possible, as you have no free will..
Yet if the Forum member can read, you Just read PAUL tell Christ rejectors, that "THEY...ALWAYS resist the Holy Spirit."

Sure, man has free will.

This means that Paul is one confused Calvinist, Hyper Calvinist, or that Calvinism and the "5-points" (TULIP) is a "doctrine of Devils"., as Paul just blamed them for their "resisting the Holy Spirit" that the '5-points" of Hyper Calvinism, says isn't possible.

With Jesus as the author of the WORDs that Paul speaks, you you are saying that Jesus is also confused???bad pooh

Now when you read that "you always RESIST THE HOLY SPIRIT", then that is "you are resisting the Truth, that is the Gospel being revealed to you".., and that is also Hebrews 10".. ."If you willfully sin"...(will not believe in Jesus, willfully) there remainth no more JESUS FOR YOU... "there remaineth no more SACRIFICE for your SIN." because of your Willful decision to reject the Sacrifice who is JESUS ON THE CROSS.

No, Jesus did die for all those believing Sins....not all men

So, then If Paul is the "5-point" Hyper Calvinist, who teaches that "you can't choose Christ unless you are caused to believe by the HS"............. then Paul just lied when He taught us that = THEY Resisted the Holy Spirit = Willfully........as does every Christ Rejector.

Notice that Paul didnt say..>>"well, dont worry about it, because you were just not chosen to believe".

If Paul lied then Jesus Lied???Hum

Look now at Acts 28:28... as this is actually Hebrews 10... in the Book of the "ACTS of the Apostles."
Paul said to UNBELIEVING JEWS........>>"I will take the Gospel to the Gentiles, and they will Believe it".
So, if these JEWS were "pre-chosen" to not be the "5-Point, Hyper-Calvin" "chosen to believe" .. then you notice that Paul didnt say... "no worries, you can't believe because you are not of the chosen to believe"..

Reader, why did Paul forget all his Hyper-Calvinism, and "TULIP"< "5-points" in these Verses?

A.) Its because Paul is not a Calvinst.. Paul is not a "5-Point " TULIP... = Deceiver.

Wow, now Paul/Jesus is not a 5-p calvinist/ Interesting....fut false teachings to be sure.

 

[brightfame52]

@GodsGrace

You know Ronald Nolette....
Romans 9 is all you have.
Unfortunately for you and those that believe as you do, Romans 9 is speaking of corporate salvation.
It's speaking about ISRAEL and not about individual salvation.

False, its speaking of individual salvation, Sovereign Election of individuals over other individuals.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace



False, its speaking of individual salvation, Sovereign Election of individuals over other individuals.

BF
You may not have noticed,,,,,but I'm not responding to you anymore.

Basically because you have NOTHING to say.

Do you know ANY theology except what the heretical reformed/calvinists have taught you.

No.

Go study the NT on your own for a bit and then come back and report.

 

[amigo de christo]

BF
You may not have noticed,,,,,but I'm not responding to you anymore.

Basically because you have NOTHING to say.

Do you know ANY theology except what the heretical reformed/calvinists have taught you.

No.

Go study the NT on your own for a bit and then come back and report.

Look again at your last sentence . And now let all heed this reminder , Get in the bible for yourselves
because many are twisting things . Time we learn for ourselves . If we do this things could have been
and will become much simplier .

 

[Behold]

Are you sure you know what is meant to be a Hyper-Calvinist? It is not what you are speaking of.

Christians lead people to Christ.

Calvinists, lead people to Calvin.

If you think those the same, you need to think again...

The above is biblical out of Jesus' Mouth. Remember, all the Words Paul spoke were from Jesus Christ....of Paul but NOT of Paul

Paul's Gospel, does not teach that God won't allow some people to trust in Christ..

You really have not told us anything about what is a 5-point Calvinist.

And im not going to...
There are 6 other people on this forum who will be happy to deceive you with Calvinism... if you are not already there.

so, only if you are considered a 5-cavinist as Paul and Jesus are, you will believe in "predestination", You will believe in "election" and You will believe you are a ROBOT...

Jesus is not a Calvinist., and its an insult to label Him as that type of Heretic.

Same Goes for Paul.

Rem, Paul was speaking ONLY to those of the church, those believers and only them.-

Paul's epistles are for believers.

So, when Paul told us "be a follower of me, as i follow Christ"... He is talking to all born again believers.

Paul wrote most of the NT Epistles and His doctrine is The CHURCH Doctrine.

So, when we learn it, we are "following Paul, as He followed Christ".

Sure, man has free will.

Of course you do... You just chose to read my post.

With Jesus as the author of the WORDs that Paul speaks, you you are saying that Jesus is also confused???bad pooh

Calvinists are confused.. They have confused Calvinism with Christianity.

God never does that.... and never will.

No, Jesus did die for all those believing Sins....not all men

Jesus died for the sin of the world.. so, this is what He has accomplished.

However, this SACRIFICE is only given to ONE BELIEVER at a time..

Wow, now Paul/Jesus is not a 5-p calvinist/ Interesting....fut false teachings to be sure.

The Apostle Paul hates Calvinism, and declared it a man made doctrine of Devils... which it is.

Calvinism is CALVIN's Gospel, and that is not Paul's.

People who are deceived by Calvin, believe that Calvinism, is the NT, is the Gospel.
Its neither.

Its a man made "doctrine of devils"... Hebrews 13:9

 

[brightfame52]

BF
You may not have noticed,,,,,but I'm not responding to you anymore.

Basically because you have NOTHING to say.

Do you know ANY theology except what the heretical reformed/calvinists have taught you.

No.

Go study the NT on your own for a bit and then come back and report.

You dont have to respond to me,but this is a public forum, so:

its speaking of individual salvation, Sovereign Election of individuals over other individuals.

 

[Ritajanice]

Look again at your last sentence . And now let all heed this reminder , Get in the bible for yourselves
because many are twisting things . Time we learn for ourselves . If we do this things could have been
and will become much simplier .

 

[Ritajanice]

I was an individual who was Born Again by the Living Holy Spirit, therefore have been grafted into Israel ,all Born Agains are grafted into the true vine.,individually.



Romans 11:17-32NLT. But some of these branches from Abraham's tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in.

 

[GodsGrace]

You dont have to respond to me,but this is a public forum, so:

its speaking of individual salvation, Sovereign Election of individuals over other individuals.

You can repeat your incorrect theology all you want to BF.....
I've TRIED to discuss Romans 9 with both @Ronald Nolette and @Scott Downey.

Know what? They don't even respond after I spend much time EXPLAINING Romans 9 to them.
They don't respond because Romans 9 is a rather difficult chapter in the NT and they want to touch and make comments about it but they won't take the time to really discuss it....as I've been willing to do.

So....

I won't be spending any time explaining it to you, but If will copy and paste one of my replies and you could either read it or not...
BUT HERE'S WHAT ROMANS 9 IS ALL ABOUT as written to SD, to which I never received a reply:
(mine is in blue).



I agree that, except for passages that are directly spoken to the Apostles, all of the NT if for all persons....
But Romans 9 was written specifically for Paul's Jewish brethren. He is specifically addressing the concern he has for why his Jewish brothers are unable to accept Jesus as the Messiah.
Paul is NOT using Romans 9 to explain the calling of God to each person individually, but to explain why He chose Israel to reveal Himself and also why faith in Jesus is offered to all peoples ....even the gentiles, which Paul also referred to as the great mystery which has now been revealed ...
Colossians 1:25-29
25Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
26that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ.
29For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.

And please notice verse 28: Paul admonishes EVERY man and teaches EVERY man......
The gospel is for every man SC......God wishes that all men be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4


I'll also say that in Romans 9:2 Paul expresses great sorrow and anguish for his fellow Jews whom he feels are not accepting of Jesus and thus saved.... Is it possible that Paul loves man more than God does...who created man?? I don't think so.
He states that to THEM belongs the SONSHIP, the GLORY, the COVENANTS, the LAW, the WORSHIP and the PROMISES that were made in the OT.
Paul is showing how the OT always had in mind the inclusion of the Gentiles......Abraham...the father of all nations.

It's important to have an overview of these 3 chapters because it's the only way to understand each individual verse that you're probably going to choose to discuss.

Scott Downey said:

Romans 9

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 9:22-24
God wanted to show His wrath.
Yes. To who?

Paul is referring to the OT in these 3 chapters.
In Romans 9:22 Paul is referring to the wrath of God because, indeed, God show wrath for some...

God showed wrath toward those that had built the golden calf.
God showed mercy on them - longsuffering - these vessels of wrath when He heeded Moses in
Exodus 32:7-14
7Then the LORD spoke to Moses, “Go down at once, for your people, whom you brought up from the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves.
8“They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and have sacrificed to it and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!’”
9The LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people.
10“Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”
Moses’ Entreaty

11Then Moses entreated the LORD his God, and said, “O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
12“Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, ‘With evil intent He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about doing harm to Your people.
13“Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’”
14So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.


Notice that God "changed His mind" about doing harm to the people that had built the gc.
This is how much God loves His creation,,,that He's willing to always give a second chance.

In this same way God shows His mercy to ALL who will accept Him....
Because it's God's desire that all men come to salvation.
Today, in the NC,,,this is accomplished through Jesus Christ.



part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

@brightfame52

page 2 of 2

Scott Downey said:

Romans 9, all peoples. gentiles. as in v25-26 versus Jews in 27-29

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”
29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Well Scott, thanks for doing my work for me!
Indeed all of the above is referring to ISRAEL and not to individuals...
which is my point and which is accepted also by Christian theologians that are not of the reformed persuasion.

Romans 9 is discussing the state of ISRAEL...
it's discussing salvation that was given through Israel...through the revelation of God for salvation to all...
first through the Law, which could not be kept because the Holy Spirit was not yet available...
then through Christ, who made the Holy Spirit available to all who would accept Him.

Scott Downey said:

Present Condition of Israel​

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law [d]of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, [e]by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

Amen!
Look at verse 32:
BECAUSE THEY DID NOT SEEK IT BY FAITH....

We are indeed saved by faith in God/Jesus.
As Ephesians clearly states ,,, we are saved by faith.
NOT because God chose some before the foundation of the world.
(and sent everyone else to hell for no reason).

Faith, a gift from God for whoever will want to accept it.
Gifts, after all, do require acceptance.
If you never open the gift you've been given,,,,
you will never have it.

Scott Downey said:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

verse 33, includes everyone.

verse 30 forward, a summing up of Romans 9

Correct again.
Verse 33 includes EVERYONE.
"AND WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME".
whoever believes
whoever


So what are we debating here SD?
Looks like we agree and I'm not reformed.

 

[GodsGrace]

You dont have to respond to me,but this is a public forum, so:

its speaking of individual salvation, Sovereign Election of individuals over other individuals.

After you get through exegeting Romans 9 for those of us that are NOT CALVINISTS.....

I will have a question for you....which, BTW, is NEVER replied to by ANY Calvinist in either THIS FORUM
or the other one....

Know why BF....

Because calvinists CANNOT reply to this question.

 

[GodsGrace]

Look again at your last sentence . And now let all heed this reminder , Get in the bible for yourselves
because many are twisting things . Time we learn for ourselves . If we do this things could have been
and will become much simplier .

Amigo....
This is what happens:

A person comes to know Christ.
He becomes a born again believer.

He joins a church.
Who knows what church? They know nothing.

The church is reformed.
They teach reformed/Calvinist theology.

The person becomes a Calvinist...AND NEVER EVEN KNOWS IT.

Then they read the NT through the lens of what they've learned...

AND SO THEY NEVER COME TO KNOW THE GOD THAT EVERY OTHER CHRISTIAN KNOWS.

They come to know a God that is NOT REPRESENTED in the NT (or the Old for that matter).

IT'S VERY SAD indeed.

 

[Scott Downey]

After you get through exegeting Romans 9 for those of us that are NOT CALVINISTS.....

I will have a question for you....which, BTW, is NEVER replied to by ANY Calvinist in either THIS FORUM
or the other one....

Know why BF....

Because calvinists CANNOT reply to this question.

After I read one of your posts on teaching people how to be born again, I just stopped responding to your theological posts.
You can not teach that to a person, it is entirely the work of God.
We also do not teach people to know the Lord in the New Covenant.

 

[Ritajanice]

.
You can not teach that to a person, it is entirely the work of God.
We also do not teach people to know the Lord in the New Covenant.

100% Amen!!...

@Scott Downey @GodsGrace is a Catholic, she’s an overseer on another forum under the heading Catholic..

 

[brightfame52]

After you get through exegeting Romans 9 for those of us that are NOT CALVINISTS.....

I will have a question for you....which, BTW, is NEVER replied to by ANY Calvinist in either THIS FORUM
or the other one....

Know why BF....

Because calvinists CANNOT reply to this question.

Its speaking of individual salvation, Sovereign Election of individuals over other individuals. Jacob and Esau are individuals in Rom9 narrative. Everything is in the singular for individuals Rom 9:11-24

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom[singular] I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom[singular] I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him[singular] that willeth,[singular] nor of him[singular] that runneth[singular], but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee[singular] up, that I might shew my power in thee[singular], and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom[singular] he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who[singular] hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man[singular], who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me[singular] thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one[singular] vessel unto honour, and another[singular] unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Behold]

You can not teach that to a person, it is entirely the work of God.

Paul taught that Christ on THE Cross is Salvation.
Paul taught that if you want it.. then YOU have to Trust in Christ.

Welcome to FREE WILL and the ability to Trust in Christ or NOT.

"""""""well what about moronic demon possessed John Calvin's theology that taught me that im too depraved to believe"""""".

What about it?
Its a Satanic lie and you believed it, and now you teach the same Lie, as that is what a Disciple of John Calvin, is going to do.

Whereas a REAL CHRISTIAN, who is not deceived by Demonic Calvinism, would not be caught dead teaching Calvin's Cross Denying Heresy.
That's a fact.

 

[GodsGrace]

After I read one of your posts on teaching people how to be born again, I just stopped responding to your theological posts.
You can not teach that to a person, it is entirely the work of God.
We also do not teach people to know the Lord in the New Covenant.

Ah....
What are you talking about Scott Downey?

Of course you're not going to agree with me on HOW a person becomes born again....

That's because you don't follow the teaching of JESUS or of PAUL or of any other writer in the NT.
You follow some guy named JOHN CALVIN.

Who taught heretical theology.

Also,,,,,IF you bring up Romans 9 and then decide you do not wish to discuss Romans 9 because it's beyond your pay grade...
THEN WHY BRING IT UP?

Why not just make comments on something or other that you THINK you know about instead of bringing up theological matters that you know nothing about?

And....last comment...

WHY NOT LEARN what Romans 9 is about instead of MISQUOTING it???

 

[Scott Downey]

Ah....
What are you talking about Scott Downey?

Of course you're not going to agree with me on HOW a person becomes born again....

That's because you don't follow the teaching of JESUS or of PAUL or of any other writer in the NT.
You follow some guy named JOHN CALVIN.

Who taught heretical theology.

Also,,,,,IF you bring up Romans 9 and then decide you do not wish to discuss Romans 9 because it's beyond your pay grade...
THEN WHY BRING IT UP?

Why not just make comments on something or other that you THINK you know about instead of bringing up theological matters that you know nothing about?

And....last comment...

WHY NOT LEARN what Romans 9 is about instead of MISQUOTING it???

The scripture speaks for itself as anyone can read.
However certain people take it and change what it says, which is what you are doing.
But the discussion is not profitable as I have already said.

 

[GodsGrace]

Its speaking of individual salvation, Sovereign Election of individuals over other individuals. Jacob and Esau are individuals in Rom9 narrative. Everything is in the singular for individuals Rom 9:11-24

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom[singular] I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom[singular] I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him[singular] that willeth,[singular] nor of him[singular] that runneth[singular], but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee[singular] up, that I might shew my power in thee[singular], and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom[singular] he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who[singular] hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man[singular], who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me[singular] thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one[singular] vessel unto honour, and another[singular] unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

This is for YOU
@Scott Downey and
@Ronald Nolette


PLEASE Don't Discuss Matters You Know Nothing About.

BTW....Just quick:

The children not yet being born....
Jacob represents ISRAEL........that would be CORPORATE SALVATION

NOT
Individual salvation.