Free Will in Heaven

[jeffhughes]

(tim_from_pa;56153)
Jeff---Let's back up a bit. While we do have free will here, the starting point of this mess that we are in is with Adam. The main choice was placed on him. God wanted Adam to take that tree of Life instead of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. The former represents life by God's Spirit, the latter makes man the judge (as in the Law) and doing things from his perspective. Therefore, we chose to sin just like Adam and have that free choice also.God wanted us to be like him and had Adam taken of the right tree, he'd have been like God and the offspring (however that would come about considering I believe Adam would have then been a glorified being) would be like Adam, and thus sinless. But God wants us to choose Him over ourselves. Had he just made Adam glorified from the beginning, then there would be no testing.Yes, we have free choice in heaven, but it was with the understanding that we had in this life a choice between sin and righteousness. Making a clone right off the bat takes that all away.
Alright, so let me try and work out a parallel. Let's say you have a kid (I don't know whether you do or not, but just work with me here). Now this kid grows up, and he's a very good kid - wonderful child. And he loves you, and you know it, and he knows it, and he would never choose to disobey you. But you know that he still has that choice - he's just too good to ever choose to disobey. That's essentially what you are calling a "God clone."Now, rewind back to the beginning. You have a kid. When this kid is born, an angel comes down from heaven and tells you that you can decide right now whether to make this child a very very good kid, a generally neutral kid, or a really bad kid. Obviously, you're not going to make this kid a bad kid, so you can either make him a very good kid, resulting in the scenario I just laid out, or you can make him neutral, where he can choose either to obey or to disobey you. At no time is his free will ever altered in this arrangement - just his "default state" of goodness. Now why, on earth, would you ever choose to make the kid neutral?You can say that God wants to test our love for Him, as though He doesn't already know it, and you can say that after this we're all going to be like Christ and yet have free will - just never choosing to do bad. But why couldn't God have created us Christ-like to begin with, still having that free will but switching our "default state" of goodness to be good, so that we just would never choose to be bad? You might argue that that's not true free will - but then again, if it's not free will when it's like that on earth, then it's not free will when it's like that in Heaven either...

 

[tim_from_pa]

Now, rewind back to the beginning. You have a kid. When this kid is born, an angel comes down from heaven and tells you that you can decide right now whether to make this child a very very good kid, a generally neutral kid, or a really bad kid. Obviously, you're not going to make this kid a bad kid, so you can either make him a very good kid, resulting in the scenario I just laid out, or you can make him neutral, where he can choose either to obey or to disobey you. At no time is his free will ever altered in this arrangement - just his "default state" of goodness. Now why, on earth, would you ever choose to make the kid neutral?
Other than the free will thing, I really don't know to be honest. Actually, there is predestination involved, but they coexist which only makes the reasoning to figure this out so much more complicated. It's like asking what space and time is. Nobody can define it, but only work with it. In this case, I think you are separating free will from intrinsic goodness/badness etc and I'm not so sure that can be done. Righteousness (or lack thereof) is but the fruit of what one is. freewill implies a separate being. And that being in turn is either righteous or not. In other words, if one is a righteous being, they are free to practice righteousness but not the contrary since they are not that by nature. And vice versa.As for making the kid a good kid---- the human analogy is I'm sure parents would wish that they could and still keep free will. But it happens all the time where children are victims of their choices, even when they don't fully understand. I know---- my brother's in-laws just lost a lovely 2-year-old boy to a drowning. What made it worse, he was kept alive for a few days and did not go right away, but was maybe brain dead.

 

[David161099]

OFF TOPIC:Tonight I read the title of the thread and I thought it said: Free Wii in Heaven!! LOL As in Nintendo Wii.I'm assuming that there will be Wii in heaven. ray3:

 

[tim_from_pa]

No, there's no Wii in heaven.

There's also no beer. That's how the song goes....In heaven there is no beer, that's why we drink it here! Disclaimer: To the kids coming of age..... Seriously I say drink responsively, and NEVER drink and drive or operate anything dangerous and that goes for power tools, boats or whatever. I never do, and I'd go thru the ceiling if my kids would one day do that. Always do that at home when you know there's going to be no driving or a designated driver if at a party.

 

[jeffhughes]

(tim_from_pa;56202)
Disclaimer: To the kids coming of age..... Seriously I say drink responsively, and NEVER drink and drive or operate anything dangerous and that goes for power tools, boats or whatever. I never do, and I'd go thru the ceiling if my kids would one day do that. Always do that at home when you know there's going to be no driving or a designated driver if at a party.
Radio announcer voice: "This message brought to you by Mothers Against Drunk Driving."

 

[watt]

IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRITHERE I AM AGAIN TO SHARE THE TRUTH OF GOD LOVEFree Will in Heaven is already mentioned in 8 beatitude (MATTHEW 5:3-10)The text of St. Matthew runs as follows: • Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3) • Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land. (Verse 4) • Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5) • Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6) • Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7) • Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8) • Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9) • Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10) First beatitudeThe word poor seems to represent an Aramaic 'ányâ (Hebrew 'anî), bent down, afflicted, miserable, poor; while meek is rather a synonym from the same root, 'ánwan (Hebrew 'ánaw), bending oneself down, humble, meek, gentle. Some scholars would attach to the former word also the sense of humility; others think of "beggars before God" humbly acknowledging their need of Divine help. But the opposition of "rich" (Luke 6:24) points especially to the common and obvious meaning, which, however, ought not to be confined to economical need and distress, but may comprehend the whole of the painful condition of the poor: their low estate, their social dependence, their defenceless exposure to injustice from the rich and the mighty. Besides the Lord's blessing, the promise of the heavenly kingdom is not bestowed on the actual external condition of such poverty. The blessed ones are the poor "in spirit", who by their free will are ready to bearfor God's sake this painful and humble condition, even though at present they be actually rich and happy; while on the other hand, the really poor man may fall short of this poverty "in spirit". Second beatitudeInasmuch as poverty is a state of humble subjection, the "poor in spirit", come near to the "meek", the subject of the second blessing. The anawim, they who humbly and meekly bend themselves down before God and man, shall "inherit the land" and posses their inheritance in peace. This is a phrase taken from Psalm 36:11, where it refers to thePromised Land of Israel, but here in the words of Christ, it is of course but a symbol of the Kingdom of Heaven, the spiritual realm of the Messiah. Not a few interpreters, however, understand "the earth". But they overlook the original meaning of Psalm 36:11, and unless, by a far-fetched expedient, they take the earth also to be a symbol of the Messianic kingdom, it will be hard to explain the possession of the earth in a satisfactory way. Third beatitudeThe "mourning" in the Third Beatitude is in Luke (6:25) opposed to laughter and similar frivolous worldly joy. Motives of mourning are not to be drawn from the miseries of a life of poverty, abjection, and subjection, which are the very blessings of verse 3, but rather from those miseries from which the pious man is suffering in himself and in others, and most of all the tremendous might of evil throughout the world. To such mourners the Lord Jesus carries the comfort of the heavenly kingdom, "the consolation of Israel" (Luke 2:25) foretold by the prophets, and especially by the Book of Consolation of Isaias (11-16). Even the later Jews knew the Messiah by the name of Menahhem, Consoler. These three blessings, poverty, abjection, and subjection are a commendation of what nowadays are called the passive virtues: abstinence and endurace, and the Eighth Beatitude (verse 10) leads us back again to the teaching. Fourth beatitudeThe others, however, demand a more active behaviour. First of all, "hunger and thirst" after justice: a strong and continuous desire of progress in religious and moral perfection, the reward of which will be the very fulfilment of the desire, the continuous growth in holiness. Fifth beatitudeFrom this interior desire a further step should be taken to acting to the works of "mercy", corporal and spiritual. Through these the merciful will obtain the Divine mercy of the Messianic kingdom, in this life and in the final judgment. The wonderful fertility of the Church in works and institutions of corporal and spiritual mercy of every kind shows the prophetical sense, not to say the creative power, of this simple word of the Divine Teacher. Sixth beatitudeAccording to biblical terminology, "cleanness of heart" (verse 8) cannot exclusively be found in interior chastity, nor even, as many scholars propose, in a genral purity of conscience, as opposed to the Levitical, or legal, purity required by the Scribes and Pharisees. At least the proper place of such a blessing does not seem to be between mercy (verse 7) and peacemaking (verse 9), nor after the apparently more far-reaching virtue of hunger and thirst after justice. But frequently in the Old and New Testaments (Genesis 20:5; Job 33:3, Psalms 23:4 (24:4) and 72:1 (73:1); 1 Timothy 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:22) the "pure heart" is the simple and sincere good intention, the "single eye" of Matthew 6:22, and thus opposed to the unavowed by-ends of the Pharisees (Matthew 6:1-6, 16-18; 7:15; 23:5-7, 14) This "single eye" or "pure heart" is most of all required in the works of mercy (verse 7) and zeal (verse 9) in behalf of one's neighbor. And it stands to reason that the blessing, promised to this continuous looking for God's glory, should consist of the supernatural "seeing" of God Himself, the last aim and end of the heavenly kingdom in its completion. Seventh beatitudeThe "peacemakers" (verse 9) are those who not only live in peace with others but moreover do their best to preserve peace and friendship among mankind and between God and man, and to restore it when it has been disturbed. It is on account of this godly work, "an imitating of God's love of man" as St. Gregory of Nyssa styles it, that they shall be called the sons of God, "children of your Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 5:45). Eighth beatitudeWhen after all this the pious disciples of Christ are repaid with ingratitude and even "persecution" (verse 10) it will be but a new blessing, "for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." So, by an inclusion, not uncommon in biblical poetry, the last blessing goes back to the first and the second. The pious, whose sentiments and desires whose works and sufferings are held up before us, shall be blessed and happy by their share in the Messianic kingdom, here and hereafter. And viewed in the intermediate verses seem to express, in partial images of the one endless beatitude, the same possession of the Messianic salvation. The eight conditions required constitute the fundamental law of the kingdom, the very pith and marrow of Christian perfection. For its depth and breadth of thought, and its practical bearing on Christian life, the passage may be put on a level with the Decalogue in the Old, and the Lord's Prayer in the New Testament, and it surpassed both in its poetical beauty of structure. MAY GOD BLESS ALLAMENFROM WATT

 

[tim_from_pa]

(jeffhughes;56205)
Radio announcer voice: "This message brought to you by Mothers Against Drunk Driving."

True. I like a few now and then, but I don't want to give the younger crowd the wrong impression, either. Everything in moderation.

 

[ps77]

(tim_from_pa;56202)
No, there's no Wii in heaven.

you dont know that

 

[Jordan]

(ps77;56324)

you dont know that
Isn't a Wii a material? A matierial made by men? If so, then it won't exist in Heaven.

 

[ps77]

what if God creates nintendo for heaven.that would be cool. i'd be stoked to play smb!

 

[Jordan]

(ps77;56328)
what if God creates nintendo for heaven.that would be cool. i'd be stoked to play smb!
Nintendo can break. His trasures can't break. As scriptures say to rely on Treasures where theif can not steal. Nintendo can be stolen. But God's words can't.

 

[ps77]

but man, if God made nintendo, wouldn't he make it perfectly!i'm just sayin maybe our mansions are filled with a little somethin' somethin' other than a change of robeseither way, we can always hope

 

[verzanumi24]

(ps77;56328)
what if God creates nintendo for heaven.that would be cool. i'd be stoked to play smb!
I hope you're all just kidding around.

 

[David161099]

(verzanumi24;56338)
I hope you're all just kidding around.
What do mean?Read your bible....nintendo is mentioned 53 times.:cool:

 

[setfree]

I thought we were going to be with Jesus on earth?

 

[Jordan]

(setfree;56355)
I thought we were going to be with Jesus on earth?
We are. Heaven is going to be on Earth.

 

[tomwebster]

(thesuperjag;56357)
We are. Heaven is going to be on Earth.
That's right, He's coming here.

 

[setfree]

Then why is God going to make a new heaven and earth?In Rev. 21 it says that John saw the holy city coming down from God out of heaven. It looks like heaven will still be here...What will be the role of the angels?

 

[tomwebster]

(setfree;56362)
Then why is God going to make a new heaven and earth?In Rev. 21 it says that John saw the holy city coming down from God out of heaven. It looks like heaven will still be here...What will be the role of the angels?
It will be the third Heaven and Earth age.

 

[setfree]

But there will be a heaven and earth, right?