For free will believers out there

[Grailhunter]

 

[theefaith]

John 6:37 is a verse that I often use to deal with a common understanding that people have when they hear the doctrines of Calvinism. They think, "if I am not of the elect, then I cannot come to Jesus Christ even if I wanted to."

I would say to them that they can come to Jesus Christ and that if they come to Him He will in no wise cast them out. In coming to Him they will prove that they were of the elect all along.

But hyper-Calvinism would say that even if the non-elect were to come to Jesus it would be of no avail for them because they are of the non-elect.



Salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 5:1-2) apart from works (Titus 3:5 (kjv), Romans 4:5-6, Romans 11:5-6 (kjv)).

no this refers to redemption not justification or salvation

 

[justbyfaith]

I can believe them to be false prophets just because they disagree with the watchtower.

You ought to really do a google search on "Watchtower false prophecies".

It might take you on a journey that would be fruitful for you in your spiritual life.

Like when that scripture says all eyes will see him which includes those who pierced him, which we know we're the Roman soldiers, I'm not going to believe that these Roman soldiers who pierced Jesus have lived for two thousand years and will literally see Jesus

They will see Him when He returns (or later) because they will be resurrected (Daniel 12:2); whether they are righteous or wicked.

This scripture isn't saying those Roman soldiers who pierced Jesus would literally be seeing him at Armageddon.

They will see Him at the time of their resurrection.

 

[justbyfaith]

no this refers to redemption not justification or salvation

It is referring to justification and salvation.

 

[theefaith]

The sacraments are required for justification and salvation

 

[justbyfaith]

The sacraments are required for justification and salvation

justification and salvation can be obtained without the sacraments (Titus 3:5 (kjv), Romans 4:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:5-6 (kjv)).

Case in point: the thief on the cross.

 

[theefaith]

justification and salvation can be obtained without the sacraments (Titus 3:5 (kjv), Romans 4:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:5-6 (kjv)).

Case in point: the thief on the cross.

the thief again the sacraments are not in effect until the death of the savior

the thief was saved by prayer

 

[Wrangler]

The sacraments are required for justification and salvation

Sad appeal to legalism.

justification and salvation can be obtained without the sacraments (Titus 3:5 (kjv), Romans 4:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:5-6 (kjv)).

Case in point: the thief on the cross.

Thanks for pulling up these verses. :)

the thief again

What's wrong with the thief reference?

the sacraments are not in effect until the death of the savior

How old are you?

We live in the age after the death of the savior. So, why are you addressing theological points AS IF they are a function of history?

the thief was saved by prayer

And this is not theologically relevant to you?

 

[Enoch111]

The sacraments are required for justification and salvation

While that is what the Catholic Church teaches, it is not really a Bible doctrine.

 

[justbyfaith]

the thief again the sacraments are not in effect until the death of the savior

How convenient.

 

[theefaith]

While that is what the Catholic Church teaches, it is not really a Bible doctrine.

Jn 3:5

 

[theefaith]

How convenient.

heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[Wrangler]

Jn 3:5

Not an argument. Jn 3:5 does not even reference a sacrament.

 

[justbyfaith]

Not an argument. Jn 3:5 does not even reference a sacrament.

Yes it does; water baptism is a sacrament.

 

[Wrangler]

Yes it does; water baptism is a sacrament.

Again, Jn 3:5 does not not even reference a sacrament. You want to read 'baptism' into the text.

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, Jn 3:5 does not not even reference a sacrament. You want to read 'baptism' into the text.

You can un-read baptism out of the text if you so desire; however if Jesus means baptism when He says "water" you are making a gamble which, if you lose, you will perish in hell for all of eternity.

Whereas if you accept that He is speaking of water baptism in His name and "get this one done", you will have secured your salvation as a certainty and there will be no possibility of condemnation.

I think that it is only a wise decision to "get this one done" if you haven't done so yet...

If you don't, you are making a gamble which you just might win...however if you lose the gamble you will lose everything; so why make the gamble?

@justbyfaith

 

[theefaith]

While that is what the Catholic Church teaches, it is not really a Bible doctrine.

you know of another?
Matt 16:18 Jn 10:16 one church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles

 

[theefaith]

Not an argument. Jn 3:5 does not even reference a sacrament.

baptism

or Mk 16:16

 

[theefaith]

Not an argument. Jn 3:5 does not even reference a sacrament.

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (IBaptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

 

[Renniks]

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

Sadly predictable.
I took a shower today. Am I saved again?