First the Rapture and then the Great Tribulations

[7angels]

veteran do you believe as the son of man does? the reason i ask is because what the son of man says is unscriptural. even if the rapture is false does not mean we are now unsaved as the son of man says. there is only one way i can lose my salvationonce i have it. and a mistake with doctrine will not be our downfall that keeps us from heaven. if that were the case then i can tell you that no one here is going to heaven because i have seen pride run rampant in this forum which is against the doctrine of the bible. everyone is working their own way to God. i doubt there are 2 people who are doing the exact same thing to get closer to God. so let us leave the unnecessary remarks out of our posts. you only show your own ignorance or pride when you act all godly. so let us keep these discussions civil please.

james 4 teaches what humility is if there is anyone uncertain how we are to act towards one another.

 

[veteran]

veteran do you believe as the son of man does? the reason i ask is because what the son of man says is unscriptural.

Isn't that really some idea that men taught you to think? If you'll look in the Book of Ezekiel, there were some cases where the KJV translators rendered God's calling Ezekiel "Son of man" also in lower case "son of man". In the NT, our Lord Jesus is referred to as "Son of man". So if our Lord Jesus Christ is The "Son of man" per the NT KJV Bible, then why did God call Ezekiel also "Son of man"?

even if the rapture is false does not mean we are now unsaved as the son of man says. there is only one way i can lose my salvationonce i have it. and a mistake with doctrine will not be our downfall that keeps us from heaven.

What we follow and who we listen to DOES... make all the difference with our NOT appearing spiritually naked and in shame when our Lord Jesus returns. That idea is not from me, it's directly from our Lord Jesus in Rev.16:15 and Rev.3:18. We most certainly... can be among the five foolish virgins that Jesus will say He did not know IF... we don't stay in His Word for ourselves and listen to Him and heed. No amount of faith in a Church building, a pastor, a congregation of friends, can ensure our Salvation. Only our Heavenly Father through His Son Jesus Christ can. Don't think for a minute that our Lord Jesus won't let you be deceived if you choose to listen to men instead of Him in His Word with understanding. Our pastors and ministers and friends will NOT... be able to support us when we stand at the Judgment Seat before our Lord Jesus Christ.

if that were the case then i can tell you that no one here is going to heaven because i have seen pride run rampant in this forum which is against the doctrine of the bible. everyone is working their own way to God.

I've seen a lot of that too, especially with those in direct denial of Scripture as written, like how our Lord Jesus revealed His coming to gather us is immediately after the tribulation per Matthew 24:29-31. Lot of those just so happen to believe in a pre-trib rapture theory. There's only one Way of Salvation, and that is through The Blood of Jesus Christ, which then means 'staying' in Him to overcome, all the way to the end when He returns to gather us.

i doubt there are 2 people who are doing the exact same thing to get closer to God. so let us leave the unnecessary remarks out of our posts. you only show your own ignorance or pride when you act all godly. so let us keep these discussions civil please.

Here you are complaining about false pride, and then you try to slam that exact thing in my face with those remarks! That marks you as a hypocrite. Enough said.

 

[7angels]

Isn't that really some idea that men taught you to think? If you'll look in the Book of Ezekiel, there were some cases where the KJV translators rendered God's calling Ezekiel "Son of man" also in lower case "son of man". In the NT, our Lord Jesus is referred to as "Son of man". So if our Lord Jesus Christ is The "Son of man" per the NT KJV Bible, then why did God call Ezekiel also "Son of man"?

i was referring to the person on this forum who calls himself son of man.

What we follow and who we listen to DOES... make all the difference with our NOT appearing spiritually naked and in shame when our Lord Jesus returns. That idea is not from me, it's directly from our Lord Jesus in Rev.16:15 and Rev.3:18. We most certainly... can be among the five foolish virgins that Jesus will say He did not know IF... we don't stay in His Word for ourselves and listen to Him and heed. No amount of faith in a Church building, a pastor, a congregation of friends, can ensure our Salvation. Only our Heavenly Father through His Son Jesus Christ can. Don't think for a minute that our Lord Jesus won't let you be deceived if you choose to listen to men instead of Him in His Word with understanding. Our pastors and ministers and friends will NOT... be able to support us when we stand at the Judgment Seat before our Lord Jesus Christ.

you have no disagreement from me here

I've seen a lot of that too, especially with those in direct denial of Scripture as written, like how our Lord Jesus revealed His coming to gather us is immediately after the tribulation per Matthew 24:29-31. Lot of those just so happen to believe in a pre-trib rapture theory. There's only one Way of Salvation, and that is through The Blood of Jesus Christ, which then means 'staying' in Him to overcome, all the way to the end when He returns to gather us.

read matt 24:3 the disciples are asking 3 questions of Jesus. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? when you read this you will notice that Jesus answers the last question first. if you look at matt 24:15 you will see one verse that people use to prove that we will have a mid trib rapture. but this question is answered from matt 24:4-29. then the other question of when the Lord will be coming returning. matt 24:30-51.

whether you know it or not you are coming from the position of the post trib rapture. so say what you want about believing in whether or not the rapture is real but you are coming from their same points where the Lord's coming happens after the trib is over.

Here you are complaining about false pride, and then you try to slam that exact thing in my face with those remarks! That marks you as a hypocrite. Enough said.

i was not even referring to you about that veteran :)

btw there is no reason to start name calling because you don't agree with what people say. it is just as easy to ask for clarification before we start casting accusations around. may God's peace be upon us.

 

[veteran]

i was referring to the person on this forum who calls himself son of man.

Oh, well in that case, I'm not sure what all the person on this Forum that calls themself "son of man" believes. If you had given examples specific to that I would have understood you better.

read matt 24:3 the disciples are asking 3 questions of Jesus. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? when you read this you will notice that Jesus answers the last question first. if you look at matt 24:15 you will see one verse that people use to prove that we will have a mid trib rapture. but this question is answered from matt 24:4-29. then the other question of when the Lord will be coming returning. matt 24:30-51.

That would be wrongly separating the Matt.24:29 verse from the 30 through 31 verses wouldn't it? The 29th verse timing is in context with the 30-31 verses. Just because a doctrine of men disagrees with the idea of Christ's coming after the tribulation He mentioned there, that's not a valid reason to try and separate that 29th verse from the 30-31 verses.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

The subject flow in those verses are chronological, in order, like this...

1. After the tribulation of those days, the sun and moon are darkened, stars fall from heaven, powers of the heavens shaken.
2. THEN shall appear the sign of The Son of Man in heaven
3. then shall all the tribes on earth mourn
4. they shall see The Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
5. He shall send His angels with a great sound of the trumpet
6. they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another (the Mark 13:27 version of this says the elect are gathering from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven).

whether you know it or not you are coming from the position of the post trib rapture. so say what you want about believing in whether or not the rapture is real but you are coming from their same points where the Lord's coming happens after the trib is over.

Actually, I'm coming from the point of what God's Word declares as written. Doesn't matter whether it agrees with post-trib doctrines of men or not; the point again, is it what God's Word is teaching there??? (Post-trib doctrines of men also include ideas of a Rapture of the saints to Heaven just prior to God's cup of wrath being poured out on the wicked, but I don't agree with that, and why not I say again? Because God's Word as written says different on that point.)

Apostle Paul encountered this very type of thinking of those who get wrapped up into religious doctrines of men and drive themselves into a squabble of contentions like some Yankees vs. Redsox baseball game. "I am of Paul", one says; "I of Apollos", another says, and "I of Cephas" with another, and "I of Christ" by yet another. Paul then asks, "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you?" (1 Corinthians 1).

i was not even referring to you about that veteran :)

You included it in your paragraph addressed to me.

You said to me:

"veteran do you believe as the son of man does? the reason i ask is because what the son of man says is unscriptural. even if the rapture is false does not mean we are now unsaved as the son of man says. there is only one way i can lose my salvationonce i have it. and a mistake with doctrine will not be our downfall that keeps us from heaven. if that were the case then i can tell you that no one here is going to heaven because i have seen pride run rampant in this forum which is against the doctrine of the bible. everyone is working their own way to God. i doubt there are 2 people who are doing the exact same thing to get closer to God. so let us leave the unnecessary remarks out of our posts. you only show your own ignorance or pride when you act all godly. so let us keep these discussions civil please."

I didn't take that last statement of yours lightly. If you want respect, then you've got to show it first.

 

[7angels]

veteran

this is prophesy and everyone has their own idea of what each prophesy means. unless you have relationship with God that is, for a lack of a better word, awesome then don't assume you know everything because it will lead you into pride. if you know the prophesy so well the God has graced you will amazing wisdom and revelation.

did you know that Jesus was not the only person in scripture that was born of a virgin? did you know that there have been many examples of rapture throughout the bible? also if you are close eniugh to God to get this revelation from God then tell me how often a day do you talk to God? what king of gifts of the spirit do you have? what kind of signs, miracles, and wonders do you have working in your life and how often is it working? how often do yo pray for healing with people and get results? i would like answers to these questions so i can determine how to judge your words. if you have very little spiritual fruit then i also doubt you are as knowledgeable about the word as you say because the Holy Spirit reveals the mysteries of God's word and if you have very spiritual fruit then that is contrary to what the word teaches. in other words you are speaking in pride instead of in love and humility.

btw if i insulted you in any way i am sorry but i like to get straight to the truth quickly and sometimes it comes out wrong.

have a blessed day.

 

[TWC]

The Bible is clear enough on this issue that it doesn't take any kind of divine revelation to see that the pretrib doctrine is false.

Paul wrote that those who are alive and remain will not precede those who have fallen asleep, who are the dead in Christ (determined by the context, not by doctrine).

According to Revelation, written by John, the first resurrection occurs after the great tribulation.

In John's gospel, Jesus said that the righteous were to be raised on the last day.

In Matthew, Jesus said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the time of harvest.

He also said specifically that His elect would be gathered after the tribulation. Peter refers to the elect as those who God foreknew to be obedient to Christ, not the physical nation of Israel. In fact, Paul wrote that all who believe are the seed of Abraham.


In order for the pretrib rapture doctrine to be true, most of the New Testament writers (and/or Christ Himself) had to have been liars.

 

[7angels]

each to his own then. we all have our views and we are set in our ways so there is no real need to continue this discussion. i wish you all well in Jesus' name

 

[veteran]

veteran

this is prophesy and everyone has their own idea of what each prophesy means. unless you have relationship with God that is, for a lack of a better word, awesome then don't assume you know everything because it will lead you into pride. if you know the prophesy so well the God has graced you will amazing wisdom and revelation.

Don't you think you make a huge mistake by dwelling on personal assumptions about others, instead of concentrating on what God's Word says as written? How is it that you cannot understand the simplicity of what I'm saying with Scripture as it's written?

I don't know anything! But My Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ knows everything! That's why I choose to listen to Him in His Holy Writ, and not to doctrines of men.

That's also HOW I know what His Word declares on the order of events for Christ's return and our gathering to Him. I'm not swayed by men, nor by their doctrines (and there are many), nor by someone at Church, nor by those with many world credentials on the end of their name, etc. And not only has God blessed me with much understanding in His New Testament Word, but also in the Books of His Old Testament prophets, which are very... relevant today also (2 Pet.3:2; 1 Cor.1:1-11). The Old Testament prophets have revelations in them leading all the way up to Christ's future return, and that's where much of the NT teachings about the order of events for the end of this world are written, showing that God's Word is The Living Word, and not some dead history.

So if I declare how I've been faithful to our Lord Jesus in keeping to His Word through study, instead of heeding man's doctrines, how could that ever be seen as an act of pride? Or is that those who disagree with the pre-trib rapture theory, which IS... a doctrine from men, is seen by you as being prideful when they speak against it? Isn't that really what you're trying to say?

But I say, one shows false pride when they refuse to keep to the Scriptures as written, and instead follow popular doctrines of men. Trying to separate the Matt.24:29 verse apart from the 30-31 verses that go with it, IS... a show of false pride against that Scripture as written, because the reason why someone would even want to do that kind of split is in order to serve a doctrine of man. In your case, it appears to be the Pre-trib Rapture theory.

did you know that Jesus was not the only person in scripture that was born of a virgin?

Show me in Scripture where there's evidence of another beside Mary, the mother of our Lord Jesus, fitting that example of conceiving not by man's seed, but only by The Holy Spirit. I think you've bitten off more than you can chew.

did you know that there have been many examples of rapture throughout the bible?

You obviously are more interested in listening to some man instead of studying God's Word for yourself. Only two people are written of in God's Word which God took and they didn't die, Enoch and Eliajh. Neither one of those Biblical cases were about Christ's future coming to gather His saints that will still be here on earth.

also if you are close eniugh to God to get this revelation from God then tell me how often a day do you talk to God? what king of gifts of the spirit do you have? what kind of signs, miracles, and wonders do you have working in your life and how often is it working? how often do yo pray for healing with people and get results? i would like answers to these questions so i can determine how to judge your words. if you have very little spiritual fruit then i also doubt you are as knowledgeable about the word as you say because the Holy Spirit reveals the mysteries of God's word and if you have very spiritual fruit then that is contrary to what the word teaches. in other words you are speaking in pride instead of in love and humility.

btw if i insulted you in any way i am sorry but i like to get straight to the truth quickly and sometimes it comes out wrong.

have a blessed day.

The Holy Spirit especially reveals Himself by giving us understanding in His Word of Truth, as we stay in it. The working of miracles and show of signs is not... always a sign of God's working, for even the devil can work miracles to deceive. If you have to see signs and miracles to know whether someone is speaking Truth from God's Word as written, then you're subject to the coming deception by the false messiah that's to appear at the end of this world (Matt.24:24; Rev.13:11-17).

 

[JLB]

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. - 1 Thess 5:5

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:9

[sup]2[/sup]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[sup]3[/sup]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thess 2:2-3

So the signs of Christs coming are these...

1. There will be a great falling away
2. The son of Perdition (The Anti-Christ) revealed

When the Anti-Christ is revealed then it is rapture time.

The Lord will return as a thief in the night for the world but not for The Church.


1 Thessalonians 5:4-6

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

A very misquoted scripture by those pushing the false doctrine of the pretrib rapture.


The Lord Bless you, JLB

 

[us2are1]

I agree with you completely. The rapture fantasy/ideology is NOT Biblical, which is to say its use of scripture is on the same level as that which Satan employed when it tempted Our Lord.

At its basic level, the rapture myth is an escapist form of religious fantasy.

As for the tribulation, I believe that point in history has already passed. It was called the holocaust and I, at least, do not count myself in the number of those anti-semitic types who hope and pray for yet another mass murder of our Jewish brethren. The mere thought of such a thing happening again is disgusting to me. Real Christians should have the same reaction if they really THINK about it. Alas, mental analysis and discipline is yet another virtue lost to Americans these days. There are so few left.

There's still Disneyland, endless remakes of Star Wars and the NFL to enjoy though.

[email protected]

Tribulation will come as it has never come before. Christ's two Prophets will shut up the heavens and take away all the water from earth by turning it to blood. Then the just shall live by faith when Gods natural sacrifice to man is removed from sight. But those who live by faith in what can not be seen know where it is at.




.

 

[veteran]

[email protected]

Tribulation will come as it has never come before. Christ's two Prophets will shut up the heavens and take away all the water from earth by turning it to blood. Then the just shall live by faith when Gods natural sacrifice to man is removed from sight. But those who live by faith in what can not be seen know where it is at.
.

Just as the children of Israel while in Egypt didn't go anywhere when God worked the plagues upon Egypt through Moses, likewise, we are not going anywhere during the tribulation either. Our LORD was able then, and He still is able to protect us on earth today all the way to the end. We are to be strong in the Faith, standing with the Gospel armour on, not seeking to escape. The main battle is getting ready to start, and a lot of Christ's people aren't preparing for it, but are trying to flee instead.

 

[Strat]

Why debate future events when one doesn't even know if they will be here to witness them,i veiw death as a personal rapture that could come before the Sun sets today,death is the liberation day for the Christian....i welcome it.

 

[teamventure]

how should we prepare then veteran if the rapture doesn't happen?

 

[veteran]

how should we prepare then veteran if the rapture doesn't happen?

Our Lord Jesus told you what we're supposed to be doing all the way up to the day of His return... one of His answers to that is here...

Luke 17:35
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(KJV)

 

[Strat]

how should we prepare then veteran if the rapture doesn't happen?

The first thing to do is not assume you will be here,death is every Christians liberation and emancipation day...it is indeed a poor witness for Christians to proclaim the Kingdom of God and it's glory then fight tooth and nail like the rst of the world when their time comes to go there.

 

[veteran]

The first thing to do is not assume you will be here,death is every Christians liberation and emancipation day...it is indeed a poor witness for Christians to proclaim the Kingdom of God and it's glory then fight tooth and nail like the rst of the world when their time comes to go there.

Luke 17:35
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(KJV)

You appear to not understand what our Lord Jesus was teaching with the above verse either. Maybe this next example will further clarify...

Matt 24:45-47
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
(KJV)

 

[JLB]

Matt 24:45-47

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.



Excellent Scripture!

This is our scripture we use for our ministry.

Joseph Storehouse.

Wise, knowing what to do and faithful to keep doing it.


Thanks, JLB

 

[veteran]

But does anyone understand what our Lord Jesus was teaching with those Scripture examples?

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Oh, well in that case, I'm not sure what all the person on this Forum that calls themself "son of man" believes. If you had given examples specific to that I would have understood you better.




That would be wrongly separating the Matt.24:29 verse from the 30 through 31 verses wouldn't it? The 29th verse timing is in context with the 30-31 verses. Just because a doctrine of men disagrees with the idea of Christ's coming after the tribulation He mentioned there, that's not a valid reason to try and separate that 29th verse from the 30-31 verses.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

The subject flow in those verses are chronological, in order, like this...

1. After the tribulation of those days, the sun and moon are darkened, stars fall from heaven, powers of the heavens shaken.
2. THEN shall appear the sign of The Son of Man in heaven
3. then shall all the tribes on earth mourn
4. they shall see The Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
5. He shall send His angels with a great sound of the trumpet
6. they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another (the Mark 13:27 version of this says the elect are gathering from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven).




Actually, I'm coming from the point of what God's Word declares as written. Doesn't matter whether it agrees with post-trib doctrines of men or not; the point again, is it what God's Word is teaching there??? (Post-trib doctrines of men also include ideas of a Rapture of the saints to Heaven just prior to God's cup of wrath being poured out on the wicked, but I don't agree with that, and why not I say again? Because God's Word as written says different on that point.)

Apostle Paul encountered this very type of thinking of those who get wrapped up into religious doctrines of men and drive themselves into a squabble of contentions like some Yankees vs. Redsox baseball game. "I am of Paul", one says; "I of Apollos", another says, and "I of Cephas" with another, and "I of Christ" by yet another. Paul then asks, "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you?" (1 Corinthians 1).




.

It's clear and obvious. Why do people still insist in some sort of secret randomly selected event?

I think I may know why after thinking about it. Fear. They're afraid, that if Christians are here during the tribulations that God can't or wont protect them from wrath. So, they reason, that because there's wrath, and we in Christ wont experience wrath, then we must not be here. DESPITE the Bible clearly stating the order of events.

No man knows the day or the hour, true. But, Jesus gave us warnings, and He even said, "See, I have told you beforehand...." We dont' know the day or the our of the end of the events, yet, we know when the time is near. That's why Jesus said to be wise and keep watch. Why keep watch if we don't even know the signs? Why keep watch if it's just going to be over for us abruptly?

This is the single most frustrating topic to discuss. There was a time when I could actually see how people got the rapture idea from the Bible. Now, I can't even see a hit of rapture written in the Word of God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

They're afraid, that if Christians are here during the tribulations that God can't or wont protect them from wrath.

People need to understand that there's a difference between tribulation (affliction) and wrath. Jesus himself said we would have affliction, and the bible says that God's people are not appointed to wrath. God's people are not on the earth when the vials of wrath described In the book of Revelation are poured out. They will be on earth, though, up until just before that point.