Filling in Scriptural Blanks

[JohnDB]

When Scripture is silent on something, we often make an assumptions about what likely happened based on our own predilections masquerading as logic.

Here’s an example: Did Methuselah die in the Great Flood? Gen. 7:6 tells us that Noah was 600 years old at the time of the flood. That means his dad Lamech, who was 182 at Noah’s birth, Gen. 5:28, was born 782 years before the flood. Coincidentally (or perhaps not coincidentally) Methuselah lived 782 years after Lamech was born, Gen. 5:26. So Methuselah died in the year of the flood. But IN the flood? We don’t know.

It is tempting to assume that if Methuselah were still alive when the rains came, Noah would have found a spot on the Ark for his grandpa, and Genesis would have mentioned this elderly passenger. Such an assumption fits nicely with our presuppositions about the kind of man Noah was, and perhaps that Methuselah was. But in my view, these sorts of temptations must be resisted. Living with the uncertainty is preferable to guessing wrong.

As a warm up, I’ve intentionally given an example where the “right” answer is insignificant in the grand scheme of Biblical things. Before the fastballs start coming, I’ll just ask: who agrees with me that filling in Scriptural blanks is in invitation to indulge our biases?

Nope....it happens but it shouldn't.

The first sentence in Genesis is not a complete sentence....it has been forced into being a complete sentence but it's a hanging preposition by the root "bara" demanding a material for the heavens and earth to be made from. But none is listed. Indicating that the heavens and earth were made from nothing.

 

[RedFan]

Nope....it happens but it shouldn't.

The first sentence in Genesis is not a complete sentence....it has been forced into being a complete sentence but it's a hanging preposition by the root "bara" demanding a material for the heavens and earth to be made from. But none is listed. Indicating that the heavens and earth were made from nothing.

I'm not following your argument, John. Are you saying that the verb "bara" implies creation out of something already in existence?

 

[JohnDB]

I'm not following your argument, John. Are you saying that the verb "bara" implies creation out of something already in existence?

Yes....
You can "bara" a stone table, a wood table, a straw table, a water table....

But you can't "bara" a table without a material to make it from. Its a type of part of speech not in existence in English. A type of prepositional verb that demands a material. There's an implied "out of" that never is translated but exists in Hebrew.

It is the source of the old joke about scientists competing with God and God tells them to get their own dirt.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I think you have misunderstood what Jesus was saying here. He was responding to the questions in verse three - Matthew 24:3 (WEB):

(3) As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? What is the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?”​

Jesus was not decribing a "conversion process", he was describing his coming for the church at the end of the Gospel Age and the rapture of Christians, or as Luke puts it, "the day that the Son of Man is revealed" (Luke 17:30). When he said there were two people, that is exactly what he meant. He said, "Two women will be grinding at the mill"; Barnes' Notes comments:

Two women ... - Grinding in the East was performed, as it is now, chiefly by hand. The millstones were about 2 feet in diameter and 12 foot in thickness. The lower one was fixed, and the upper one was turned by a handle or crank. This was done by two persons, who sat opposite to each other. One took hold of the mill-handle and turned it half-way round; the other then seized it and completed the revolution. This was done by women - by servants of the lowest order - and was a very laborious employment. See Exo_11:5; Job_31:10; Isa_47:2; Jdg_16:21. The meaning of this verse is similar to the former. Of two persons sitting near each other, one shall be taken and the other left. The calamity would be sudden, and would come upon them before they were aware.​

Luke says, Luke 17:35 (WEB):

(35) There will be two grinding grain together. One will be taken, and the other will be left.”​

This is definnitely talking about two people not one person who has part of themself destroyed.


Revelation 19 is describes the marriage of the Lamb taking place in heaven. The church has already been resurrected and are in heaven - they have to be born again (resurrected as spirit beings) in order to be in heaven. The marriage doesn't take place on the earth and then the Christians are changed and gathered to heaven. Remember Paul said:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (WEB):

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

and this all hapens in an instant:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (WEB):

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

Dear keithr,
I used to believe the verses that you quoted just as you presented but everything changed for me when I was converted many years ago.

Conversion requires Christ giving a person both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by judgment. If a believer only has the Early Rain of the Spirit, they are not converted - they are a "babe" who will understand the spiritual teachings of the New Covenant in a carnal way (physically and outwardly). Because of this inability to understand the New Covenant teachings, Satan is able to deceive the new believer. In this way, Satan has built his apostate church in this world. His church consists of all the various sects/denominations of Christianity that have existed since the end of the 1st century. As Paul said, none of the sheep will be spared from the wolves after his departing (Acts 20:29-31). Mat 12:43-45 and Isa 28:9-12 are two of the primary teachings which state this truth. Those teachings apply to everyone after they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit. No one can avoid it happening to them.

Here is a little more on this subject:

The Old Covenant was written for carnal mankind to understand. It is outward and physical. However, the New Covenant is a spiritual covenant and its teachings apply within the Elect.

And since the end-time teachings are a part of the New Covenant teachings, they, too, must be spiritually applied just as Paul does in the verse below:

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

The end-time teachings show the spiritual events (signs of the times) that lead up to each Elect person's conversion. Conversion occurs when Christ returns to the believer with the Latter Rain of the Spirit and judgment. Christ's second coming is not a one-time outward event that occurs at the literal end of the ages - that is a carnal understanding of those teachings.

Here is how to understand the second coming of Christ:

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Paul's conversion experience is a "type" that teaches the pathway to salvation. Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit on the Damascus Road. That is when Paul entered the church and received a measure of faith. Paul's three days in Damascus represented his time in the apostate church when he could not eat or drink Christ's bread and New Wine. After the three days (represents a spiritual process of Paul becoming "worse than the first"/a man of sin), Christ returned to Paul (typed by Ananias) and poured out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Latter Rain, Paul's blindness was healed and He was told to eat meat (truth).

The Apostles received the Early Rain of the Spirt when they walked with Christ. This is when they became "babes" who could recognize and accept Christ has their Lord. But they, too, remained spiritually blind (Mark 8:15-25) until Christ returned to them on the Day of Pentecost. That is when they received the Latter Rain of the Spirit and were converted.

After Paul's death, the spirit of anti-Christ entered the church and consumed it. All the unconverted "babes" fell away and became apostate. Even to this day, the churches in the world remain apostate and are following the carnal teachings of Satan rather than the spiritual teachings of Christ. For that reason, when Christ returns to one of His Elect with the Latter Rain, one of the first things the Elect believer will see is the Abomination of Desolation (Mat 24:15) that previously occurred when the spirit of anti-Christ indwelt them.

The pathway to salvation that each of the Elect will travel before they die is taught by end-time prophecy AND by various analogies. One of those analogies is the Marriage analogy. The engagement of a person occurs when they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit. This is when they become a spiritual chaste virgin. The time of waiting for the Bridegroom to return is when they will fall away and become apostate. The wise virgins (represents the Elect) will be given the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the extra flask of oil). That extra oil will light the way for Christ to appear the second time and for the marriage to occur (new birth). The Marriage Supper will then occur when Christ feeds His new bride bread and New Wine. With this knowledge of the truth, judgment will fall on the believer to complete their conversion. This must all happen before a believer dies or they will remain apostate and be resurrected with the foolish virgins (the "many" who are called to be saints but not chosen).

One final point: When a person has both the Early Rain of the Spirit and the spirit of anti-Christ within them, they are said to contain two people; the child of God and the child of the Devil. The child of the Devil will be removed and destroyed by judgment as shown in Mat 24:37-41. Your understanding of the two people is carnal. You see the two people as being out in the world. But Christ's teachings are spiritual and must be applied within a person. Until you can understand the teachings of the New Covenant in a spiritual way, you are going to misunderstand them.

Joe

 

[RedFan]

Yes....
You can "bara" a stone table, a wood table, a straw table, a water table....

But you can't "bara" a table without a material to make it from. Its a type of part of speech not in existence in English. A type of prepositional verb that demands a material. There's an implied "out of" that never is translated but exists in Hebrew.

It is the source of the old joke about scientists competing with God and God tells them to get their own dirt.

I’m not a Hebrew scholar, but I'm not seeing what you're seeing. It seems to me that “bara” can mean either to create out of nothing or to create out of something. Just checking Strong’s here, I don’t see any instances of “bara” in Genesis where the latter meaning is clear and the former meaning is ruled out. And where creation out of something is explicit, “bara” isn’t used. (Example: Gen 2:22, where Eve is fashioned from Adam’s rib, a different verb is used.)

But with the first sentence of Genesis, this is all moot. Gen. 1:1 says that God created “the heavens and the earth” – so there was literally no pre-existing matter from which God could have re-purposed an already existing material thing.

 

[Wick Stick]

The first sentence in Genesis is not a complete sentence...

Agreed.

"At the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth..."

 

[St. SteVen]

Agreed.

"At the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth..."

NIV to the rescue. - LOL

Genesis 1:1 NIV
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

NIV to the rescue. - LOL

The Nearly Inspired Version? never...

 

[Jay Ross]

The Nearly Inspired Version? never...

Not quite true.

I think of the NIV as the Nearly Infallible Version but then again, many other versions are the same.

 

[Brakelite]

Age is telling on me these days. My wife has some health issues but she remains more active than me. I have no major complaints. We live with our daughter and she looks after us. I look into this forum regularly although I post very little anymore. Hopefully you and yours are doing well.

On the whole then, good news. And yes, age is in the habit of slowing us down. Feeling that myself. But still manage to hold down a part time job which I love and don't want to relinquish any time soon. By comparison to many my age, I am very very blessed indeed and am to be honest, disgustingly healthy. Good genes.
My family is great thanks. Visited Perth a couple of months ago and saw grand-kids I hadn't seen in person for nearly 10 years. That was good, although all of them with the exception of one of 6, were taller, wider, and more energetic than me, and made me feel even older.
Did you know that people fly from Sydney, Melbourne, to Perth in order to work at the mines nearby? Is a fly in fly out arrangement, earn unimaginable money but commute every week or fortnight as the case maybe. 5 hours on the plane for me was almost unbearable. Can't imagine doing it 40 or more times a year and spending so much time away from family.

 

[Brakelite]

There is physical death, but the soul lives on.
NDE testimonies indicate that the mind can live outside the physical body.
Patients report witnessing resuscitation efforts and give details of what happened when they were physically unconscious.

NDEs are deceptions of the highest order. People near death as a result of trauma or accident or extreme ill health could very well be hallucinating and be susceptible to satanic influence. How many of them come back to life and warn people to repent and turn to Jesus for salvation? None. Instead people think that it doesn't matter, that all will live forever and in a happy light. You are now as deceived as they.

Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

Who was alive? The children of Abraham, and as you said above, not the genealogical children, but spiritual children... spiritual Israel. Asleep, awaiting the voice of the archangel, and the resurrection.

How can you claim that annihilation (utter destruction) is eternal punishment?

Because otherwise the Scripture would have said punishing. Eternal punishing. But it doesn't. It says eternal punishment. Death. And of eternal life is the reward of the righteous, them that death means exactly that. Death and destructing... not life at a different address.

Why would unconscious nonexistent nothings be thrown into the lake of fire?

They aren't. Being thrown into the fire is the second death, after the resurrection of domination. The millennium is book ended by resurrections. The first at the second coming, the resurrection of the just. All the wicked them remain dead until the 1000 years are over, and then raised to a state of life sufficient for them to understand why they have been sentenced to die at the great white throne judgement.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Nearly Inspired Version? never...

LOL
At least it starts with a complete sentence.

Why do you suppose the traditional translations don't?
There must be a reason.

.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
There is physical death, but the soul lives on.
NDE testimonies indicate that the mind can live outside the physical body.
Patients report witnessing resuscitation efforts and give details of what happened when they were physically unconscious.

NDEs are deceptions of the highest order. People near death as a result of trauma or accident or extreme ill health could very well be hallucinating and be susceptible to satanic influence. How many of them come back to life and warn people to repent and turn to Jesus for salvation? None. Instead people think that it doesn't matter, that all will live forever and in a happy light. You are now as deceived as they.

I agree, it is very controversial.
What is the mind? (soul)

I think our brain acts like an organic computer hard drive.
The data on that hard drive is our mind.
In the same way that data from one physical hard drive can be transferred to another hard drive,
the data can "live" on after the hard drive is gone.

Our mind (the data) contains all of our memories and constitutes our personal identity.
This identity and memories goes with our spirit at the time of physical death.
We will be held accountable for the actions of this identity.

If you got a brain transplant, who would you be?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

Who was alive? The children of Abraham, and as you said above, not the genealogical children, but spiritual children... spiritual Israel. Asleep, awaiting the voice of the archangel, and the resurrection.

Who was alive?

The verse says "all".
"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” - vs 38

Jesus didn't limit who was alive by saying"they". He said "all".

"the living" = all

[

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
How can you claim that annihilation (utter destruction) is eternal punishment?

Because otherwise the Scripture would have said punishing. Eternal punishing. But it doesn't. It says eternal punishment. Death. And of eternal life is the reward of the righteous, them that death means exactly that. Death and destructing... not life at a different address.

Interesting point. Can the word "punishment" not carry the meaning of an extended time?
Those in our prisons are paying their debt to society. Their punishment may last for years or decades.


St. SteVen said:
Why would unconscious nonexistent nothings be thrown into the lake of fire?

They aren't. Being thrown into the fire is the second death, after the resurrection of domination. The millennium is book ended by resurrections. The first at the second coming, the resurrection of the just. All the wicked them remain dead until the 1000 years are over, and then raised to a state of life sufficient for them to understand why they have been sentenced to die at the great white throne judgement.

Well said. Thanks.
Eschatology is not my area of expertise. Even so, Eschatology abounds with varying views.

If the wicked are "raised to a state of life", couldn't they have been in that state all along?

In a Bible search for the term "realm of the dead" (realm dead) 29 references appear in the NIV translation.
One of them where you might not expect. - LOL
And two that may be even more surprising. (the other 26 are worth a look)

Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither
working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Acts 2:27 NIV
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.

Acts 2:31 NIV
Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah,
that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

--- COMPARE ---

Psalm 16:10 NIV
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
nor will you let your faithful[a] one see decay.

[

 

[amadeus]

On the whole then, good news. And yes, age is in the habit of slowing us down. Feeling that myself. But still manage to hold down a part time job which I love and don't want to relinquish any time soon. By comparison to many my age, I am very very blessed indeed and am to be honest, disgustingly healthy. Good genes.
My family is great thanks. Visited Perth a couple of months ago and saw grand-kids I hadn't seen in person for nearly 10 years. That was good, although all of them with the exception of one of 6, were taller, wider, and more energetic than me, and made me feel even older.
Did you know that people fly from Sydney, Melbourne, to Perth in order to work at the mines nearby? Is a fly in fly out arrangement, earn unimaginable money but commute every week or fortnight as the case maybe. 5 hours on the plane for me was almost unbearable. Can't imagine doing it 40 or more times a year and spending so much time away from family.

Thanks for sharing some of the good things in your life. My grandchildren are all adults. I have three great-grandchildren from 3 months to 14 years old. They all live close so that I see them regularly. I am glad no one expects me or my wife to take care of them.

I cannot imagine a five-hour daily commute time for a prolonged period, but then these days I drive a car only rarely and then locally.

 

[keithr]

I agree, but those who hold that doctrine to be true have biblical support.
That's the question. Some biblical doctrine has to be discounted to make room for the others.
There are contradictions.

If you believe that the Bible is God's word to us, written by Him through men, as the apostle Paul certainly did - 2 Timothy 3:16 (WEB):

(16) Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,​

then if you think that two verses are contradictory you should realise that is not the case, so you must then conclude that your uderstanding of one (or both!) verses must be incorrect (after checking for translation mistakes). The belief that those who refuse to believe in and/or be obedient to God and Jesus will be tortured for eternity in fire, is a belief based on misunderstanding of some verses of the Bible.

 

[JohnDB]

I’m not a Hebrew scholar, but I'm not seeing what you're seeing. It seems to me that “bara” can mean either to create out of nothing or to create out of something. Just checking Strong’s here, I don’t see any instances of “bara” in Genesis where the latter meaning is clear and the former meaning is ruled out. And where creation out of something is explicit, “bara” isn’t used. (Example: Gen 2:22, where Eve is fashioned from Adam’s rib, a different verb is used.)

But with the first sentence of Genesis, this is all moot. Gen. 1:1 says that God created “the heavens and the earth” – so there was literally no pre-existing matter from which God could have re-purposed an already existing material thing.

Ok...
Yes there are different words used. Hebrew itself is a metaphorical language....meaning a verb based language using metaphors. Every word is a description of a scenario. The idea is difficult for those who have used a noun/object based language their entire lives.
We see the word "beth" in Hebrew as an equivalent to the English word "house". But that's not really accurate. Beth means dwelling as in all the activities that go on in living inside a house. Including sleeping, cooking, various crafts, and etc.

The verb "bara" as all Hebrew is a verb requires a material for the heavens and the earth to be fashioned from....but the material isn't listed for good reason. It's poetry and a deliberate absence of the words used for absence of any material or empty because look at what the translators have already done to the incomplete poetry....they made it a complete sentence.

This Hebrew literary device is used again in Daniel to indicate what happens to the Messiah. And while Jesus was being crucified he had nothing...not even clothes or family as he gave his family to John.

There have been literally encyclopedia sized sets of books describing this chapter, it's poetry and meaning. I'm barely scratching the surface here in my explanation. But it should suffice.

 

[JohnDB]

Agreed.

"At the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth..."

Where did this come from?
I've never seen this translated this way before.

 

[keithr]

keithr said:
Everyone is redeemed and resurrected.

In that order?

Yes. The redemption price was accepted by God when Jesus ascended to God after his resurrection. The merit of Jesus' sacrifice is applied to Christians when they believe and are baptised, so that they are considered to have eternal life. Jesus said, John 5:24 (WEB):

(24) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.​

For everyone else it is applied so that they can be resurrected from death. Without the redemption price being paid first, they could not be resurrected to life again. In order to gain eternal life the resurrected will have to gain the same belief and obedience to God and Jesus during the Millennial Age - those that don't will be destroyed at the end of the Millennial Age (hence Revelation 20:5, "The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished" - they didn't gain eternal life until after the final test/judgement at the end of the Millennial Age).