Fear God or Presume acceptance

[CharismaticLady]

The problem is when that level of walk is being claimed already by people who don't know it in experience but only in theory. People who do that tend to lower the standard so that being IN Christ is the same as being without Christ...as in...no power.

One of the problems is they love Jesus, but don't know Him as Christ.

Jesus saves them from their sin so they may enter heaven.
Christ takes away their sin so they can be truly holy.

We must love Jesus Christ.

Daniel 9:24

 

[CharismaticLady]

I must thank you Episkopos for teaching me about pride, that pride of man, as @Helen said about our SDA friends who hide behind the law, In the end all sound the same,

Look at me God im not like al those other sinners, As Jesus pointed out who was teh one who was justified, Not even the disciples who walked with Christ could boast of such a position, they argued and bickered amongst themselves, and who was it who had a thorn in it side , thorns are good things they remind us who we are so we cant elevate ourselves above others ,

I am glad of who I am in Christ, I can sit amongst the sinners and know where they are, Just like Christ did, He didnt feel out of place but the pharisees where always upset.

God Bless

I love and respect SDA's, having been raised in that denomination. When you are with all SDA's no one can have pride over another as all are doing the same thing. I left that denomination when I was 23 in 1970 when someone in the Church of Christ debated with me about the law, and he taught me about grace. He wasn't right, but I learned true grace later in life: the power of God through His Spirit.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't think there will be an answer. I was trying to think of the best word to fit here, I think it's 'insinuate'. Some will insinuate that they are sinless, but without saying that they are.

The man has said that Christ is perfect and that there is no sin in Him. Your take on him saying Christ is perfect is to think he is saying he is perfect.
Which of these has the man said:
Christ is perfect.
Episkopos is perfect.

Is English your first language?

We know that if we abide/remain in Him, we do not sin. So then, it is impossible that a man abides in Him and sins. If a man sins, he shows he is not, or is no longer, abiding in Him, because in Him is no sin.

Do you think He would say remain in me if it was an impossibility? Or do you think it is possible to remain in Him while sinning? If we abide in Him we do not sin. Are you abiding in Him currently? If you say you sin, you certainly are not abiding in Him. It is not possible.

And since your next question will be, are you saying you dont sin? I will answer. No, I am not saying I dont sin. Therefore, since I sin, I am not abiding in Him because if I were abiding in Him, I would not sin.

I could almost bet that you will say you abide in Him while you sin, even despite "If we abide in Him, we do not sin."

What you are really saying is (I think) that it is impossible to remain in Him. So it is a lack of belief in what He has said.

 

[marks]

Is English your first language?

Thank you for wanting to jump in here to clarify!

It seems to me that he has been much more plainly spoken in recent posts than I think I've seen from him, so I think I understand what he is saying better. So I think I get the idea of what he's saying, even if it doesn't come through very clearly, as it seems quite a number of people somehow see to get the idea that he wants us all to think that he has actually reached a sinless state. But I realize that's not what he's saying.

There is actually a lot in common between @Episkopos and I in how we see things, but the disagreements are somewhat key. Just the same, he encourages people to live righteously and that is good. Really, I think the core difference is in my view, we are working from salvation, and in his view, we are working towards salvation.

Since you keep asking me this question above, and since I've answered you repeatedly and at length, I can only guess that you keep repeating this to demean me. If that's your intent, that's something to think about.

Let me ask you, what is the difference between "being 'in Christ'", and, "abiding in Christ"? Are these the same to you? Is there a difference?

Much love!

 

[marks]

That's ridiculous. The kind of life that Jesus gives to us is without sin. Otherwise you are still walking in the same kind of life everyone on the planet is. And this is what you are justifying. You are justifying your own failure because you want to see perfection in others first. And if I try testifying of the life that is available to you...you rebel and stiffen your neck and say I'm boasting.

But one doesn't mean the other.

This comes across as if you are saying that either we are in a sinless state, or we have no life with God at all. Is that what you mean?

Because if that's not what you mean, well, it comes across that way, unless you mean for us to think you have no life at all.

That unless we are sinless, we are just self-justified failures?

Is that what you mean to communicate?

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Really, I think the core difference is in my view, we are working from salvation, and in his view, we are working towards salvation.

OK this is quite clear. And yes...you are seeing it right.

Many have been saved into the race...these are the called..although people call themselves "saved" as if the beginning of the race is the end of it.

So there is a salvation AWAY from the world...into righteousness. But there is also a high calling in Christ...that is what Paul was after...that few bible readers can comprehend. Wasn't Paul already saved?

So there is a salvation FROM And a salvation TO. There is milk and there is meat. There is a babe and there are mature disciples.

 

[bbyrd009]

understand why the pimps and hos are beating you in

 

[marks]

But it is ordained that some will fight the truth tooth and nail, because it seems like the ones who hold out the holy standard are doing so by the same pride they are defending their own lack of holiness with.

Disputes against your doctrine are from the Bible, not "feelings".

We tend to see and judge things how we are ourselves...not so much what other people are. So we can deceive ourselves so easily.

That is certainly something to guard against!

I'm wondering if you can see the sort of "inverse similarity" between these above quote. They are both "projecting".

Much love!

 

[marks]

So there is a salvation AWAY from the world...into righteousness. But there is also a high calling in Christ...that is what Paul was after...that few bible readers can comprehend. Wasn't Paul already saved?

So there is a salvation FROM And a salvation TO. There is milk and there is meat. There is a babe and there are mature disciples.

This "salvation from" and "salvation to", how do these differ?

Much love!

 

[marks]

OK this is quite clear. And yes...you are seeing it right.

And thank you!

I try very hard to understand people's views!

Much love!

 

[marks]

So there is a salvation AWAY from the world...into righteousness. But there is also a high calling in Christ...that is what Paul was after...that few bible readers can comprehend. Wasn't Paul already saved?

I see this as a matter of "working out" what God "works in" us.

That we are born again, that this makes us new creatures, that we are righteous and holy by virtue of a new creation, justifed in that we are both forgiven of sin, and remade without sin.

And that the best and right use for the rest of this life is to pursue that high calling of God in Christ, to attain to the fullness of resurrection life, "being made conformable to His death".

In being justified in Christ, this was already done, so we aren't adding to it. So our salvation is completed by Him. Otherwise, we are completing it ourselves, are we not?

We are joined with Christ in His death, and Paul, and we, seek to be made conformable to His death. We've done it, now we're being made to look like it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

A person who is in the Spirit today, or this week, or month or year, will not necessarily remain in that place. There is a LOT to learn. We are learning to live in an ENTIRELY different realm (dimension)...so to get used to that level of walk takes more than one try.

What I've learned . . . there is one thing only that we need to do to walk in the Spirit at any time, and that is to have a full reliance on the efficacy of Christ's death to make reconciation between us and God.

And when we have that firm in our minds and hearts, and stop believing that we've disqualified ourselves from fellowship with Him, well, we're ready to receive Whatever He wants to give into our lives, and humbly, knowing it is all from Him.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

I see this as a matter of "working out" what God "works in" us.

That we are born again, that this makes us new creatures, that we are righteous and holy by virtue of a new creation, justifed in that we are both forgiven of sin, and remade without sin.

And that the best and right use for the rest of this life is to pursue that high calling of God in Christ, to attain to the fullness of resurrection life, "being made conformable to His death".

In being justified in Christ, this was already done, so we aren't adding to it. So our salvation is completed by Him. Otherwise, we are completing it ourselves, are we not?

We are joined with Christ in His death, and Paul, and we, seek to be made conformable to His death. We've done it, now we're being made to look like it.

Much love!

Not at all. That is a religious theory adopted by a denominational (sectarian) group calling itself "evangelical".

The salvation IN Christ still needs to be worked out. Few can grasp this today. We have been given ACCESS to God...but very very few will take God up on that invitation. Most will go their happy way convinced of their own eternal salvation.

So that is man's religion.


But with God there is actual righteousness. So then we still have our salvation to work out.

It's like a person who gets a free scholarship to a top university. Good news!

But unless the person applies themselves with EVERYTHING they have and are...they will flunk out. And most surely will flunk out. Why? Because of silly doctrinal notions that go exactly against the teachings of Jesus. People can't wait to get to heaven and be judged for a losing attitude and a poor obedience.

Grace is the empowerment from God to do exactly as Jesus did...same standard of holiness. So if we are subjected to the test of holiness and fail...then we will be cast away.

I try to warn people about their religious pride in claiming too much for themselves. And I offer another way. The way of humility and the fear of the Lord. But it is not my offer...but the Lord's. However, the intoxication of going to university is too much for most people. People are looking for the free stuff. It just SEEMS like there is glory in heaven to be had for free. And many ministries (popular ones) are based on that euphoria. But it is vanity. The kingdom of God demands a price from us that few indeed are ready to pay.

If a person doesn't know the truth...or love the truth...they will not accept the truth. So be it.

 

[marks]

Not at all. That is a religious theory adopted by a denominational (sectarian) group calling itself "evangelical".

Hi Episkopos,

I want you to know I've given a lot of thought before replying to you .

On this part above, it seems a rather dismissive oversimplification. I'm not promoting some denominational doctrine, rather, the teaching I find in the Bible.

The salvation IN Christ still needs to be worked out. Few can grasp this today. We have been given ACCESS to God...but very very few will take God up on that invitation. Most will go their happy way convinced of their own eternal salvation.

So that is man's religion.

But with God there is actual righteousness. So then we still have our salvation to work out.

I have to confess, the way that you write I find difficult to pin down what you are saying.

Let's speak in terms of reconciliation. God urges us, be reconciled to Him, is this the invitation you mean? Or do you speak of those who are now reconciled to Him? Do you believe we can be reconciled to God in this life? That the one whom in your words has entered the race, is this person reconciled to God?

It's like a person who gets a free scholarship to a top university. Good news!

But unless the person applies themselves with EVERYTHING they have and are...they will flunk out. And most surely will flunk out. Why? Because of silly doctrinal notions that go exactly against the teachings of Jesus. People can't wait to get to heaven and be judged for a losing attitude and a poor obedience.

By "flunking out" do you mean that this person is no longer reconciled to God? Or that they haven't yet, and now won't be reconciled?

I suppose it would be easier to know what you mean if you used more Biblical terminology. I find it helpful to speak of things in the same ways that God does.

Grace is the empowerment from God to do exactly as Jesus did...same standard of holiness. So if we are subjected to the test of holiness and fail...then we will be cast away.

This is what troubles me most for your sake. How can you ever have the confidence before God that we receive from reconciliation and justification when you believe you may be cast away from God I presume you mean for failing to live up to His holiness?

There is the servant, with no confidence to remain, but the son remains forever.

It's being in God's family, born from Him, a son of God, the spirit child of the Creator, in this is permanence of relationship, and in that permanence is our anchor that holds within the veil, the Rock upon Whom we trust, that trust, trust in Jesus and what He did, not what we do, this is the faith that gives us access into the grace in which we stand. And then we can do the righteousness that God desires of us.

From that position of strength, being filled by God, living in Him, because He has made it so.

I try to warn people about their religious pride in claiming too much for themselves. And I offer another way. The way of humility and the fear of the Lord. But it is not my offer...but the Lord's. However, the intoxication of going to university is too much for most people. People are looking for the free stuff. It just SEEMS like there is glory in heaven to be had for free. And many ministries (popular ones) are based on that euphoria. But it is vanity. The kingdom of God demands a price from us that few indeed are ready to pay.

Again, I have no idea what you are talking about, the "intoxication of going to university".

But you make an interesting statement that I agree many may not be thinking of quite rightly.

It just SEEMS like there is glory in heaven to be had for free.

While I do believe that life in Christ forever is freely given to us, glory, on the other hand, results from our making good choices to act in real love. Authentic Godly love.

"Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars of heaven forever!" Paraphrased a little bit I think.

"These light afflictions that are but for a moment are working for us a far greater eternal weight of glory"

As we make the right choices to endure in faith, allowing the afflictions to complete their work in us, and as we give ourselves for God's use, without regard to ourselves. So much more could be said naturally!

The kingdom of God demands a price from us that few indeed are ready to pay.

This is at the same time so true yet so different from how I know God.

The price was paid by Christ, and in His death and resurrection I am alive.

What I think seems so poorly understood is letting go of our own efforts to pacify, appease, win approval, convince Him of our passion, or anything with God, other than to acknowledge with thankfulness the life He gives, our bodies, our spirits, His children, I really like what @FollowHim wrote about the difference between some sort of rule keeping and walking in love, how these are so completely different.

The knowledge of good and evil as we look to ourselves, or life, as we look to Jesus.

I try to warn people about their religious pride in claiming too much for themselves.

In everyone's claims for themselves, this is why I try to stay out of that whole sort of conversation. I know you've told your experiences, others have told theirs, and yes, I've even mentioned some of mine, but on the whole I don't think it adds much.

To the person whom God is working with in the same way, and with whom there is a context, perhaps, however, I feel that staying to Scripture as the foundation can prevent misunderstandings.

It's like we all have our experiences with God, and we can swap details to see who comes across the most spiritually advances or something, or we can just study the Word together.

True spirituality is not, I don't think, found in experiences, but is found in character, in how much we love.

If a person doesn't know the truth...or love the truth...they will not accept the truth. So be it.

If a person does not know the truth they will not accept it? I should say that someone who does not know the truth, share truth with them, and may the Spirit quicken their heart to it.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

I want you to know I've given a lot of thought before replying to you .

On this part above, it seems a rather dismissive oversimplification. I'm not promoting some denominational doctrine, rather, the teaching I find in the Bible.

I do hear the denominational slant in your posts with such things as a saved status. The church in our time has replaced Christ-likeness for a saved status....since it cannot even compete with other religious in the meekness category.

So then the slogan goes...good people go to hell (like those more forgiving and more humble and more hospitable people that defy our control over them) but "saved" people go to heaven. Now this is an eternal shame for they who hold to this view. Against such is the wrath of God duly aimed at.

I have to confess, the way that you write I find difficult to pin down what you are saying.

Let's speak in terms of reconciliation. God urges us, be reconciled to Him, is this the invitation you mean? Or do you speak of those who are now reconciled to Him? Do you believe we can be reconciled to God in this life? That the one whom in your words has entered the race, is this person reconciled to God?

Reconciliation is a dynamic thing...not a one time for all status. So then we need to be constantly reconciling what we do with what God expects. When that expectation is broken we have repentance and restitution BACK into that reconciliation. So reconciliation is like two roads meeting back up to form one road. We tend to stray at times...like sheep. Be ye reconciled means we go back to the right pathway where God is waiting for us to continue our training.

This is what troubles me most for your sake. How can you ever have the confidence before God that we receive from reconciliation and justification when you believe you may be cast away from God I presume you mean for failing to live up to His holiness?

Now we are in deeper waters..and this takes a lot of unpacking...as the whole Christian walk is learning to love God AS HE IS...not just as we want to see Him. God is trying to love us INTO the image of His Son. And that means we can't rely on a past salvation...we are being loved AWAY from what we were. But it takes a lot of time and training before we see that as better than any kind of assurance or status. God isn't SAFE....but He is GOOD.

So you have to trust His character without guarantees. The guarantees means you still don't trust Him enough to forsake all.

Holiness is brutal to us. But it does good things....eternal things. Most people can't reconcile the higher love that at times will obliterate our temporal loves. Most of us will fail holiness. But there is still God's mercy.

So if all people are looking for is mercy...and not glory in the kingdom...then that's why there are so few athletes competing in the eternal Olympic games.

Again, I have no idea what you are talking about, the "intoxication of going to university".

But you make an interesting statement that I agree many may not be thinking of quite rightly.

It just SEEMS like there is glory in heaven to be had for free.

While I do believe that life in Christ forever is freely given to us, glory, on the other hand, results from our making good choices to act in real love. Authentic Godly love.

"Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars of heaven forever!" Paraphrased a little bit I think.

"These light afflictions that are but for a moment are working for us a far greater eternal weight of glory"

As we make the right choices to endure in faith, allowing the afflictions to complete their work in us, and as we give ourselves for God's use, without regard to ourselves. So much more could be said naturally!

Holiness in Christ has no sin in it. So this isn't a human thing...it is a God thing. And this tends to offend people who don't know His grace as the empowerment and training IN holiness. Most people are just trying to love more and improve their carnal posture to look more Christian. But this is not a holiness standard. Ironically these same people call their growth "sanctification" which of course it is not. You don't grow INTO holiness. That's impossible. But when you are in the sinless realm of the Spirit you can grow INSIDE that holiness...to the full stature of Christ...who is also holy.

So then our initial salvation and reconciliation is into a high stakes race. The race of faith. The initial salvation takes us out of the rat race of the world and into God's house...to compete in HIS games. But there are both winners and losers in the kingdom race. This truth is obscured by religious purveyors who don't want their "product" to be questioned.

It's all very easy to understand when you realize that churches are just business franchises looking to get numbers...quantity...but not quality. The truth goes so much deeper than what is preached today...as to be unrecognizable to most.

So then you can only go so far with a superficial knowledge of God. But again, the goal is not advancement in Christ...but getting more people in the pews...corners are going to have to get cut.

 

[charity]

Fear God or Presume acceptance?

'Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God,
God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment:
because as He is, so are we in this world.
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear:
because fear hath torment.
He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
We love Him, because He first loved us.'
(1 John 4:15-19)

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,
To the praise of the glory of His grace,
wherein He hath made us accepted in The Beloved.
In whom we have redemption through His blood,
the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; ... '
(Ephesians 1:3-7

 

[marks]

I do hear the denominational slant in your posts with such things as a saved status. The church in our time has replaced Christ-likeness for a saved status....since it cannot even compete with other religious in the meekness category.

To me "saved status" is the beginning of Christ-likeness. While some denoms may say some of the same things as I do, I'm really hoping you are delineating between their views and mine. I'm taking my view of salvation straight from what I read.

I see that we are born of God, and that nothing ever will undo that.

For one example, Colossians 3 teaches that if we are risen with Him, it means we've died with Him, and will appear with Him in glory. If that doesn't happen then Scripture is not true.

So then the slogan goes...good people go to hell (like those more forgiving and more humble and more hospitable people that defy our control over them) but "saved" people go to heaven. Now this is an eternal shame for they who hold to this view. Against such is the wrath of God duly aimed at.

Again we seem to have very different ideas. Those from Adam are condemned, and those from God will live with Him. If you are only born from Adam, you will share the death promised to Adam. If you are born from God, you will share the eternal life promised to Christ.

Reconciliation is a dynamic thing...not a one time for all status. So then we need to be constantly reconciling what we do with what God expects. When that expectation is broken we have repentance and restitution BACK into that reconciliation. So reconciliation is like two roads meeting back up to form one road. We tend to stray at times...like sheep. Be ye reconciled means we go back to the right pathway where God is waiting for us to continue our training.

This sounds like a reconciation that doesn't really reconcile. In and out of reconciliation based on our behavior?

I'm not sure expectation is the right word here, as God of course knows what we will do, so there is never an expectation of God's that isn't met, as if He were expecting better of us but surprise!

As I see our reconciliation being based on Christ's death for us, and our faith in Him, resulting in being born of God, we are now sheep of His fold, He our good shepherd, and we need a shepherd.

Perhaps how you speak of "reconciliation" I would probably speak of "abiding in Christ".

Now we are in deeper waters..and this takes a lot of unpacking...as the whole Christian walk is learning to love God AS HE IS...not just as we want to see Him. God is trying to love us INTO the image of His Son. And that means we can't rely on a past salvation...we are being loved AWAY from what we were. But it takes a lot of time and training before we see that as better than any kind of assurance or status. God isn't SAFE....but He is GOOD.

Not save, but good! Hm. I find God to be very safe! I trust Him implicitly. You are correct, much unpacking!

My reliance is not, of course, an a "past salvation". My reliance is upon God my Father, I His son, born of Him. Just the same, being born of His is a forever thing, so while it's not the foundation for my life, but it is a fact of life.

Loved away from what we were, I like that! And yes, I've seen that too, that sometimes it takes a long time to begin to see the deeping relationship with our Father that can give us the confidence Right Now knowing He is here with me loving me.

So you have to trust His character without guarantees. The guarantees means you still don't trust Him enough to forsake all.

I agree with this statement on its face, however, in terms of salvation, well, it's a matter of just accepting what is true. And yes, our rebirth a sure nail upon which you can hang your hat. But learning God's character again can take some time, and I agree that is very important in learning to trust Him.

Holiness is brutal to us. But it does good things....eternal things. Most people can't reconcile the higher love that at times will obliterate our temporal loves. Most of us will fail holiness. But there is still God's mercy.

Holiness is brutal? I don't see holiness as brutal or kind. But yes God's chastening of us is not joyful, but grievous. And as He continues to work, and we continue to submit and endure, He will train is to be what He want's for us.

So if all people are looking for is mercy...and not glory in the kingdom...then that's why there are so few athletes competing in the eternal Olympic games.

I get the feeling that you may be someone isolated in your fellowship. Or have heard a lot of bad teaching. In my circles it's not so much like that. But there is an awful lot of bad teaching out there discouraging people from thinking that they too can live the way God wants.

Holiness in Christ has no sin in it. So this isn't a human thing...it is a God thing. And this tends to offend people who don't know His grace as the empowerment and training IN holiness. Most people are just trying to love more and improve their carnal posture to look more Christian. But this is not a holiness standard. Ironically these same people call their growth "sanctification" which of course it is not. You don't grow INTO holiness. That's impossible. But when you are in the sinless realm of the Spirit you can grow INSIDE that holiness...to the full stature of Christ...who is also holy.

Yes, by grace we stand, not by ourselves, grace this is from God. I'm curious, what does it mean to you the instruction to "put of the old man" and "put on the new man"? What is the old man? What is the new man? What does it mean to put the one off, and put the other on?

So then our initial salvation and reconciliation is into a high stakes race. The race of faith. The initial salvation takes us out of the rat race of the world and into God's house...to compete in HIS games. But there are both winners and losers in the kingdom race. This truth is obscured by religious purveyors who don't want their "product" to be questioned.

Hard for me it imagine a "loser" in God's family!

:)

Salvation in rebirth and justification, glory and reward at the end of the race.

This whole thing about not judging others, that Jesus will judge when He comes, and it says, each will receive praise from God. Really?

It's all very easy to understand when you realize that churches are just business franchises looking to get numbers...quantity...but not quality. The truth goes so much deeper than what is preached today...as to be unrecognizable to most.

That sounds so cynical and so unlike my church, and others I know.

There was preacher I listened to recently that well pointed out that Grace is not a thing on it's own, as if it were some force or power, but his take on it was, Grace is God's kindness towards us in giving us Christ. Given to die for us, given to live in us. What do you think of that saying?

Much love!

 

[marks]

@Episkopos

I'm going to think about how to focus this discussion to simplify it hopefully, but I do appreciate your dialog!

Much love!

 

[marks]

@Episkopos

It's come up a couple of times that we may use some words differently, so I thought explain what I mean when I use them.

When I speak of Justification,

this is a two-fold work accomplished through Christ's death, in which we are joined with Him in death and burial and resurrection. I am born from God a new creation, which means that I'm no longer in the line of Adam, of condemned humanity, now born of God. The man born from Adam, the "old man", will still share the death promised to Adam, but in Christ I now share the eternal life promised to Christ.

The guilt of sin and corruption remains on the child of Adam. The child of God is created in holiness and righteousness.

Since the corruption of sin remains with the child of Adam, the man of flesh, the new creation, the spirit child of God, is completely free from sin, having been separated from it by death, to live a new life in Christ.

In saying "put off the old man" and "put on the new man", "kill your body parts that are on the earth", this is telling us to overcome the desires of the flesh by trusting God for the promised freedom.

Rebirth is forever, as our justification is based entirely on Jesus, and His obedience, not our own. Jesus Christ is the same always.

I love the quote from Malachi . . . I the LORD change not, therefore, you, O Jacob, are not consumed!

What does justification mean to you?

Much love!

 

[FollowHim]

The scale of walking in holiness in Christ is so big...that to miss it is to miss a lot! So we have to testify of what we have experienced.

On judgment day...they who have missed the higher calling because they weren't aware of the availability of grace (fulness of grace) to walk as Jesus walked would decry those who had kept silent about it.

So we warn people who seem to lower the standard of the kingdom to what a man can do.

The standard of Christ is perfection because it is meant to be lived through Him. Paul said..."it is no longer I"...meaning he was translated into the holiness walk of Jesus...at the time of his writing.

The Christian walk is dynamic.

A person who is in the Spirit today, or this week, or month or year, will not necessarily remain in that place. There is a LOT to learn. We are learning to live in an ENTIRELY different realm (dimension)...so to get used to that level of walk takes more than one try.

The problem is when that level of walk is being claimed already by people who don't know it in experience but only in theory. People who do that tend to lower the standard so that being IN Christ is the same as being without Christ...as in...no power.

So I for one, encourage my brothers and sisters to seek the Lord for this and to run to win...to attain to Christ and to remain there...not just for themselves but also to glorify God and help move the kingdom plan of God forward.

This isn't a personal salvation thing. This is about entering into the truth in reality and power.

But it is ordained that some will fight the truth tooth and nail, because it seems like the ones who hold out the holy standard are doing so by the same pride they are defending their own lack of holiness with. So these will defend their failures and attack they who are trying to get their eyes upward into the higher walk in Christ. And I say that they who have not yet known that power over sin...in the spiritual walk of heaven...MAKE ROOM for the possibility of it...at least.

We tend to see and judge things how we are ourselves...not so much what other people are. So we can deceive ourselves so easily.

This "level of walk" is not one I have heard about from anyone, literally, other than you.
This is a problem, because unless you represent the body of Christ in totality, you cannot be speaking the truth.

"entering into the truth in reality and power"

I do not want to be sarcastic, but is your sharing here the reality of entering into reality and power?
If one is claiming a real experience all believers could experience, literally the meaning of maturity in Christ, where are these folk in history and in scripture? And if after sharing for a period, this experience is not shared by many, it might be a clue that whatever this is, it is something related to your group alone.

If this is a heavenly experience, what happens if a believer does not gain this higher plain? Are they now not saved or just the lower level believer who has not been elevated?

What for me puts this into true apostolic context is this phrase

27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world
James 1:27

James did not talk about this other plain of reality, or being in the Spirit is our purpose and focus. Rather love in action in society.
Unfortunately in my whole time in the church these visionaries come and go, and each one has a different version of what is the difference, but actually coming to terms with love and sharing is stepped over, because it is impossible without the Holy Spirit. God bless you

What this reminds me of is the film Inception, and people finding living in the dream is more real than real life.