Explain Revelations So Even I Can Understand It

[Taken]

As do I. Some here on this forum get all offended when I use the term synonymously with all Israel. The technical argument being that the term Jew is pejorative in referring to but one tribe of Israel, Judah.

I'm not sure if Hebrew is the proper term but is longer to spell than Jew. I had an aunt and cousins who called themselves Jewish. I never thought it was an insult until I joined this forum.

* Jew is a common term to call all the Tribes, yet the Truth is there are 12 Tribes, called by different names.

Perhaps you are errounously externally projecting who is offended and insulted by the truth.

 

[Davy]

Hmm

Looking at a commentary we see this
"To the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He bestows the designation of sheep of the house of Israel not on the elect only, but on all who were descended from the holy fathers; for the Lord had included all in the covenant, and was promised indiscriminately to all as a Redeemer, as he also revealed and offered himself to all without exception. It is worthy of observation, that he declares himself to have been sent to LOST sheep, as he assures us in another passage that he came to save that which was lost..

Matthew 15 - Calvin's Commentary on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

So you may not limit the house of Israel to ten tribes. Not with any authority.

One can find a Bible commentary to fit just about any view one desires, so the believer needs to be careful with those too, and not allow them to supplant the simplicity of God's written Word. Those are helps only, and not to overtake God's written Word.

The Book of Hosea with Apostle Paul pointing to it is an anchor prophecy showing God would scatter the majority of the ten tribes among the Gentiles where The Gospel would be received.

Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, "I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved."
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
KJV

Is it a strange thing that Apostle Paul would quote to Gentile believers of the Romans from... that Hosea Scripture? God gave Hosea to speak specifically to the ten tribe house of Israel, after the split, and in the days of Jeroboam, king of Israel that God gave ten tribes to.


Hos 1
1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

Right there God makes a distinction between "kings of Judah" and Jeroboam "king of Israel". That means after God had split old Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11.


2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, "Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD."

3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

4 And the LORD said unto him, "Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel."
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.

The idea is, the northern kingdom of Israel (ten tribes under Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim), had fallen away from God in that time, Jeroboam having setup two gold calf idols in the north, one in Dan, and the other in Bethel (1 Kings 12:25-33). So God was giving a prophecy here through Hosea that He was getting ready to end the northern "kingdom of Israel" under Jeroboam. Hosea taking a prostitute for wife and God telling him what to name his sons from that wife, was to symbolize what the northern ten tribe kingdom of Israel had done unto Him in false worship. This was NOT about the kingdom of Judah in the south at Jerusalem-Judea.


6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, "Call her name Lo-ruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Right there God makes a very clear... distinction that this judgment is upon the "house of Israel" of the northern kingdom of Israel under king Jeroboam, not the "house of Judah" kingdom in the southern land.


8 Now when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, "Call his name Lo-ammi: for ye are not My people, and I will not be your God.

Because of idol worship, God symbolically pointed to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) as "Lo-ammi" meaning 'not My people'.

THIS is where Apostle Paul starting quoting from Hosea in Romans 9.

God would then scatter all the ten northern tribes of the house of Israel out of the northern lands, by the kings of Assyria coming upon them and taking them to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. The king of Assyria would then take five peoples from the land of Babylon, each with their own idol worship, and plant them in the northern lands where the ten tribes had lived. Those became the Samaritans, and were not of the seed of Israel.

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people', there it shall be said unto them, 'Ye are the sons of the living God.'"
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
KJV

There again, God made a distinction between the two peoples, Judah representing the southern "kingdom of Judah" (3 tribes, JEWS), and Israel representing the ten northern tribe kingdom. None of that mentions the Gentiles being grafted in there like Apostle Paul did in Romans 9.

The next Hosea chapters reveal just how... God would scatter the ten tribe "house of Israel", and what would happen to them, including their eventual return when He joins both houses back together in final (at Christ's future return).

 

[Keraz]

The next Hosea chapters reveal just how... God would scatter the ten tribe "house of Israel", and what would happen to them, including their eventual return when He joins both houses back together in final (at Christ's future return).

This will happen as per Ezekiel 37 and it must be before Jesus returns, as they select their own leaders. Hosea 1:11, Jeremiah 30:21.
Also, although some people from the House of Israel did join Judah and still do so today, the majority; as many as the sands of the sea, are still scattered among the nations.
After the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, the way will be cleared for every faithful Christian to migrate to their heritage; all of the holy land. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107

 

[Truman]

Ten tribes of Israel, wandering homeless
Wandering endlessly throughout the earth
Forgotten by all, their name was worthless
Wandering endlessly throughout the earth

When is the time for them to return
Of their inheritance, they must learn
Ephra'im and Judah are not the same
Until the Lord reunites them again! :) tc

 

[Aunty Jane]

Have it as you prefer then. The same doctrine of God's still applies.
Before he created the human race, he put the names of his Elect unto salvation into the lambs book of life.

Since God created us with free will, he records names in his “book of life” when we have proven ourselves to him. We have to “endure to the end” in order to be “saved”.....that means we can give up and fail to endure....then we will not have our names in the book.

Paul likened our Christian course to running a race.....except, everyone who crosses the finish line is a winner.
Hebrews 12:1-3....
“So, then, because we have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also throw off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us. . . .3 Indeed, consider closely the one who has endured such hostile speech from sinners against their own interests, so that you may not get tired and give up.”

Those who tire out and give up, fail to finish, so they lose more than the race.....every day is a challenge to stay on the course...it is cramped and narrow and difficult, not broad and spacious and easy. (Matthew 7:13-14)

The Bible does not support predestination. Humans are given choices, which was proven in the garden of Eden.....three beings chose badly and their choices have affected our choices ever since. God does not “act” towards us...he “reacts” to our choices. That is why his law had punishments....to show that there are consequences to our choices. Why would God predestined a person’s life and then punish them for something that is not their fault? It makes no sense.

 

[Pythagorean12]

Since God created us with free will, he records names in his “book of life” when we have proven ourselves to him. We have to “endure to the end” in order to be “saved”.....that means we can give up and fail to endure....then we will not have our names in the book.

Paul likened our Christian course to running a race.....except, everyone who crosses the finish line is a winner.
Hebrews 12:1-3....
“So, then, because we have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also throw off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us. . . .3 Indeed, consider closely the one who has endured such hostile speech from sinners against their own interests, so that you may not get tired and give up.”

Those who tire out and give up, fail to finish, so they lose more than the race.....every day is a challenge to stay on the course...it is cramped and narrow and difficult, not broad and spacious and easy. (Matthew 7:13-14)

The Bible does not support predestination. Humans are given choices, which was proven in the garden of Eden.....three beings chose badly and their choices have affected our choices ever since. God does not “act” towards us...he “reacts” to our choices. That is why his law had punishments....to show that there are consequences to our choices. Why would God predestined a person’s life and then punish them for something that is not their fault? It makes no sense.

I agree with that last part. Makes no sense.
However, God is sovereign. And tells us he does as he pleases. He's the potter, we're the clay.

Your claim about how names arrive in the Lamb's Book of Life conflicts not just with the bible but with what we've discussed this far.
Before the foundation of the world. Not there because those named proved themselves.

There is nothing to prove. God chooses us, we don't choose him. And all those sustaining scriptures that uphold that statement by Christ.

 

[dad]

One can find a Bible commentary to fit just about any view one desires, so the believer needs to be careful with those too, and not allow them to supplant the simplicity of God's written Word. Those are helps only, and not to overtake God's written Word.

The commentary pointed out from the word what was meant by sheep.

The Book of Hosea with Apostle Paul pointing to it is an anchor prophecy showing God would scatter the majority of the ten tribes among the Gentiles where The Gospel would be received.

Except I did not sse 'ten' in the verses you gave.

Is it a strange thing that Apostle Paul would quote to Gentile believers of the Romans from... that Hosea Scripture? God gave Hosea to speak specifically to the ten tribe house of Israel, after the split, and in the days of Jeroboam, king of Israel that God gave ten tribes to.

Hos 1
1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

Right there God makes a distinction between "kings of Judah" and Jeroboam "king of Israel". That means after God had split old Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11.

Looking at a commentary I see this
"This prophecy of exemption for Judah should be understood as merely a temporary reprieve from the promised destruction of Israel. That reprieve was indeed glorious, and Judah enjoyed prosperity for an extended period after the fall of the northern kingdom; but Judah also, in time, would fall into the same debaucheries and idolatry as that which had overcome Israel; and they also would go into Babylon as captives."

Hosea 1 - Coffman Commentaries on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

So that has what to do with lost tribes somewhere?

Right there God makes a very clear... distinction that this judgment is upon the "house of Israel" of the northern kingdom of Israel under king Jeroboam, not the "house of Judah" kingdom in the southern land.

Of course at that time there was a division, so?

Because of idol worship, God symbolically pointed to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) as "Lo-ammi" meaning 'not My people'.

They all got taken captive eventually. Judah also. So what is this about some tribes being lost?

There again, God made a distinction between the two peoples, Judah representing the southern "kingdom of Judah" (3 tribes, JEWS), and Israel representing the ten northern tribe kingdom. None of that mentions the Gentiles being grafted in there like Apostle Paul did in Romans 9.

As mentioned of course at that time there was a distinction.So what?

The next Hosea chapters reveal just how... God would scatter the ten tribe "house of Israel", and what would happen to them, including their eventual return when He joins both houses back together in final (at Christ's future return).

I see nothing mentioned about lost anythings in the verses about the 144,000. So why are you harping on it?

 

[Pythagorean12]

On the contrary, it is not my problem at all. I know He died for us. That was not for nothing. For those choosing to interpret His word as if He pre fixed everything so that people cannot choose God or Satan, life or death, they make the cross to no effect.

It is not conducive to progress to continue this discussion.
You ignore scripture, proceed with your sophistry, and then claim what in fact is scripture, instead nullifies the cross.
When in fact your excising parts of scripture you refuse repeatedly to acknowledge for your own reasons insures the cross isn't within sight of your vernacular.

 

[dad]

It is not conducive to progress to continue this discussion.
You ignore scripture, proceed with your sophistry, and then claim what in fact is scripture, instead nullifies the cross.
When in fact your excising parts of scripture you refuse repeatedly to acknowledge for your own reasons insures the cross isn't within sight of your vernacular.

It is not agreeing with the bible to make the cross of Jesus to no avail. He died to make a way. Not for nothing. Talk will not change that.
Can anyone answer this question - if everything including our damnation or salvation was decided in advance, then why did Jesus need to die?

 

[NewMusic]

The Book of Hosea with Apostle Paul pointing to it is an anchor prophecy showing God would scatter the majority of the ten tribes among the Gentiles where The Gospel would be received.

Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, "I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved."
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
KJV

Is it a strange thing that Apostle Paul would quote to Gentile believers of the Romans from... that Hosea Scripture? God gave Hosea to speak specifically to the ten tribe house of Israel, after the split, and in the days of Jeroboam, king of Israel that God gave ten tribes to.

You make a remark, but do not answer it.

Paul quoted the passage from Hosea 1:10 and/or 2:23 to the Gentiles in Romans 9:24-26.

So what's your thought about this, Davy, since it seemed that the Hosea verses were referencing the Northern tribes, but Paul and Peter (1 Peter 2:10) both use Hosea's remarks toward the Gentiles?

And what makes the issue more curious is the rest of Hosea's chapters are God prophesying His reuniting the Northern kingdom with Judah and having one Head (small h or capital H).

What say ye, Davy?

 

[Taken]

Your claim about how names arrive in the Lamb's Book of Life conflicts not just with the bible but with what we've discussed this far.
Before the foundation of the world. Not there because those named proved themselves.

There is nothing to prove. God chooses us, we don't choose him. And all those sustaining scriptures that uphold that statement by Christ.

WARNING.... this is LONG, (in a two part post) a Ten minute read, you can read and consider or scroll on by.

Part 1 of 2

Concerning "Choosing" and the "Books"...
Concerning..."the Book" of Life~
I believe there are "Book(S).
And the "Books" are our notice, God is keeping record of everything we do.
And "according to" the record, is the Evidence, by which we shall be Judged.

* Gods BOOK of LIFE ~
The Book of Every Living Soul, given a Body, that the Living Soul & Body is Given a Name.
* That that Name is recorded in Gods Book of Life....AND Subject TO; Judgement and Blotting out;
Based on the Evidence in That Book;
* WAS that BODY (at the moment that BODY dies it's natural physical DEATH);
WITH God....or WITHOUT God, per the evidence.
* WITH God...the Name remains in the Book.
* WITHOUT God...the Name is BLOTTED OUT.
THIS BOOK - has NO consideration OF A persons CHOICE.
THIS BOOK contains the Names OF WHO God CHOSE to Create without the Consent of the Created person.

* Lamb's BOOK of Life ~
This also is a Book of Every Living Soul, given a Body...."WHO".... "Does MAKE A CHOICE"...
* An EXPRESS Freewill election, CHOICE... To BELIEVE...
1) IN God, the Father
2) IN Jesus, the Son
3) IN Gods, Holy Quickening Spirit
4) IN the Testimony, OF the Fathers desire fulfilled, OF the Sons bodily Death and Holy Spirits Power Raised the bodily dead Son, UP from Bodily Death.

* THAT ^ IS a freewill CHOICE...
OF BELIEF, in God, in JESUS, in Gods Power...
*...IS THAT PERSONS NAME, entered in "the Lambs Book of Life"? No
*...THAT...Also, is dependant UPON, ^ THAT BODY Remains (endures) in BELIEF, TO the day, his BODY dies.
(Because AFTER the Body DIES, no choices OF the Body can be made).

* SO WHY, is THAT persons NAME, "NOT entered INTO the Lamb's BOOK of Life"?
* BECAUSE, according to Scripture;
* That Belief... MUST BE a Belief "according to the Hearts Thoughts" ......(not the Mind).....AND.......
* That Belief... CONFESSED To the Lord.
* WHY ?
* The "CONFESSION" To the Lord...."IS the person MAKING A CONFESSION of heartful believe, that THEY BELIEVE.... JESUS IS THE CHRIST.

See the Difference?
One is a belief, Jesus is the Son of God.
One is a Confessed belief, Jesus is the Christ.

The Names "entered" INTO the "Lamb's BOOK of LIFE"...are EXPRESSLY...dependant upon on a persons "Heartful Freewill Choice to Believe AND Confess, Jesus IS the Christ".
Once...such a belief AND Confession IS MADE; That persons Name is entered INTO
The LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE....AND
IS NEVER "Subject TO", being BLOTTED OUT.
(That is where the OSAS matter hangs).

* Another BOOK -
This BOOK is a RECORD OF ALL individuals...
"WORKS".
~ Consider the "FACTS"...
...one day a person can BELIEVE in God, the next day doubt, deny, not Believe, and the day after Again Believe.
...Same with Jesus, Believe He is Gods Son, the next day, wonder, doubt, deny, not Believe, and the day after Again Believe.
~ Consider the "FACTS"...
ON the day an Individual "IS BELIEVING", God is "WITH" him.
ON the day an Individual "IS NOT BELIEVING"
God is "NOT WITH" him.
~ Consider the "FACTS"...
The "wavering" of a persons Beliefs, day to day, IS WHY so much of Scripture speaks of "ENDURING to the end", which MEANS...
Its a slippery slope, hard, because people are constantly bombarded with OUTSIDE, WORLDLY, EVIL, WICKED, CUNNING, information.....THAT "causes" "THEIR Wavering".
~ Consider Peter. He loved the Lord, followed Him, Believed in the Lord...but the moment an outside influence challenged Peter...Peter "was FEARFUL of the challenger"...AND DENIED even Knowing the Lord.
~ THAT ^ is a "DOWNFALL"...(the Warning about an individual's "enduring" to his end...
BY THE individuals OWN "power".
~ Consider The "FACTS"...
When Peter, was "WITH" the Lord, the Lord was "WITH" Peter.
WHEN Peter was "WITH" the Lord, (by Peters own choice and power to BE "WITH" the Lord)...Peter DID 'WORKS" ...
1)....THAT Glorified God....AND
2)....THAT "DID NOT" Glorify God.
IT IS NOTICE TO US:
* WE "are" rewarded, BY God "FOR ALL WORKS" we DO..... THAT GLORIFY God
* God KEEPS the Records...the Evidence...OF every Persons "WORKS", AND "rewards" every Person, according TO their "WORKS" that HAS "Glorified God".
* It matters NOT, (A non-believer, A believer, A Committed Confessed believer)....Every persons "WORKS" are Subject TO;
Judgement.
* And the Judgement IS:
1) Rewards FOR; Glorifying God
2) ALL other WORKS; BURNED
3) A saved person shall REMAIN "saved", even IF some of his "WORKS" are burned.

 

[Taken]

Continued: Part 2 of 2
(Books and choices)

Consider the "FACTS"...
"WHEN" is a persons NAME "is entered INTO, the LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE" ?
* Expressly WHEN...that person FREELY CHOOSES...."TO call on the Lord, Confess HEARTFUL Belief, JESUS, IS THE CHRIST, the Son of the Living God"
* THEN WHAT?
* Everything IN that PERSON, BY the POWER of the WORKS of God CHANGES IN THAT PERSON, ONCE and FOREVER
* The persons...
Body, soul, spirit of man IS Forgiven for "Having HAD Disbelief".
BODY becomes DEAD.
Soul becomes RESTORED. (23 Psalm; 3)
Spirit becomes QUICKENED (born again of Gods Seed) (1 John 3:9)
*....AND.... MOST IMPORTANTLY
No longer, is Subject to, warnings to Endure to his end...BY his OWN POWER... BECAUSE
* That individual IS FOREVER "kept WITH" the Lord God Almighty...."EXPRESSLY BY GODS POWER (WHO IS CHRIST), IS "IN" that person".
* That is WHY, A persons NAME, entered "INTO" the Lamb's BOOK of LIFE, can NEVER be Blotted out... The WHOLE dynamics CHANGE, From the Lord God being "WITH and WITHOUT" a man ... "BY a mans Power to endure"...."TO" Gods POWER... "IN" a person...."THAT NOTHING IS A GREATER POWER TO TAKE GODS POWER "OUT" of that person"....

1 John 4:
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: BECAUSE greater is he that is IN you, than he that is in the world.

Dan 7:
[10] A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Rev 20:
[10] A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Rev 20:
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

1 Cor 3:
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The evidence for All individuals, for ALL Judgement(S), are in Gods BOOKS.
All shall be Raised UP, and Stand before the Judge, (body and soul).
*. "WHEN" and (WHAT ie. body, soul, spirit of a man) "each individual IS RAISED UP", IS according TO:
The TIMEFRAME each individual WAS naturally born upon this earth, According TO: WHAT "amount of Gods Knowledge and Requirements" TO Be "WITH God", was given to man upon the earth.

Scripturally...we discover;
Souls separate from bodys at bodily death. By Gods Power, souls have returned to body's, and the body's rise up and resume living....
Some living souls have risen to Heaven. Some living souls have been cast to Hell.
Dead Bodies are in their graves, returning to dust, waiting to be united with their souls and raised up. Some natural spirits of men have been Quickened, (born again By Gods Seed).
Some mens bodies shall be risen up, with their restored souls, their spirits quickened and WITH the Lord in His millennial Kingdom, while morals still occupy the earth. Some dead bodies with saved souls, will NOT have their "natural spirits" Quickened (receive Gods Seed), until After the millennial Reign.
Some mens living souls will be returned to their body's, their body's raised up, Judged damned (by their name having been BLOTTED OUT of Gods Book of Life)...and Life in the soul, returned to God, and the body and soul destroyed.
POINT BEING
There is NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL.
Every man (whether or not proclaiming to be "part of a group") faces a Judgement FOR,
the "Choices he makes" for; that which BECOMES "applicable" FOR "WHAT" and "WHEN" becomes OF:
his body,
his soul,
his spirit.

In what Scripture called; "these last days"...
(Heb 1:2) Effected 2,000 + Years Ago...
God Gave the World AN Amazing, Mysterious, Marvelous OFFERING to ALL of mankind OF the World....WHICH....ANY man, could Freely Choose TO Accept or Reject.

THAT OFFERING...WAS/IS, THE ASSURANCE,
OF A "WAY" "FOR" an individual TO BE "MADE" ONCE and FOREVER... WITH The Lord God Almighty, MADE so, and KEPT so; BY HIS POWER "IN" them.

Yes...God Chose us FIRST, when He created and made us.
Yes...God Chose individuals TO effect His Will be accomplished.
Yes...Jesus Chose individuals TO effect Gods Will be accomplished.
Yes...Some men 'acquiesced" TO, and DID Gods WILL.
Yes ...Some men "rejected" TO DO, Gods Will.
Yes...Men Freely Choose God.
Yes...Men Freely Choose Jesus.
Yes...Men Freely Choose Christ.
Yes...Men Freely Choose to reject God.
Yes...Men Freely Choose to reject Jesus.
Yes...Men Freely Choose to reject Christ.
The "Choosing"...BY God is FIRST...
The "Choosing"...BY an individual "IS" thereafter...to STAND WITH the Lord God, OR NOT'
Without a man's Choice in the equation...IT would BE 'FORCE". A facade.
God desires we LOVE HIM. Is it a true Love, if it is FORCED, without choice? Nah.

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

1 Thes 1:
4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

When men debate..."resurrection'...pre-mid-post tribulation....THEY are ALL True, but do not All APPLY to the SAME individual's "body, soul, spirit".

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Pythagorean12]

The Lamb's Book of Life, and The Book of the Living, are two different books.

Question
When was before the foundation of the world?
Answer
The Bible refers to the “foundation” of the world in various passages. To found something is to establish a thing or lay the groundwork or secure the underpinnings for it. The “foundation of the world” is a reference to God’s act of creation. When Scripture refers to something that has been true “from the foundation of the world,” it means “for all of human history.” But when Scripture refers to something that happened “before the foundation of the world,” the event under discussion occurred before anything was ever created, in eternity past.

In Ephesians 1:4, we read of something that happened in eternity past: “[God] chose us in [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him” (ESV). This is an amazing passage, with its emphasis on God’s choosing—before the world was even created—those who would become believers. Before God had created anything at all, at least three things were already true: God saw mankind as lost and in need of a Savior; the eternal Savior was present; and the details of the work of redemption were planned out. In all of this, God had our transformation to holiness in view (see also 2 Timothy 1:9).

In another passage that shows God’s eternal plan, Scripture says that Jesus Christ, “a lamb unblemished and spotless . . . was foreknown before the foundation of the world” (1 Peter 1:19–20, NASB). The apostle Paul speaks of “God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began” (1 Corinthians 2:7).

The eternal nature of God the Son and His eternal relationship with God the Father are evident in Jesus’ high priestly prayer: “Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:24, ESV). The Son of God is not a created being; He possessed glory with the Father, was loved by the Father, and dwelt with the Father before the universe was created (see also John 1:1–2).

The Bible’s glimpses of what happened before the foundation of the world should give the believer great comfort. We have a Savior who is eternal. God’s grace was extended to us from eternity past. God’s plan of salvation, being eternal, is unchanging; nothing can frustrate, amend, or impede that plan. From before the foundation of the world, God laid out His design to love us, redeem us, shower us with grace, and make us holy. “When the set time had fully come, God sent his Son . . . that we might receive adoption to sonship” (Galatians 4:4–5). “Praise be to his glorious name forever” (Psalm 72:19).

 

[Pythagorean12]

Please link the source that you copied that from.

Continued: Part 2 of 2
(Books and choices)

Consider the "FACTS"...
"WHEN" is a persons NAME "is entered INTO, the LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE" ?
* Expressly WHEN...that person FREELY CHOOSES...."TO call on the Lord, Confess HEARTFUL Belief, JESUS, IS THE CHRIST, the Son of the Living God"
* THEN WHAT?
* Everything IN that PERSON, BY the POWER of the WORKS of God CHANGES IN THAT PERSON, ONCE and FOREVER
* The persons...
Body, soul, spirit of man IS Forgiven for "Having HAD Disbelief".
BODY becomes DEAD.
Soul becomes RESTORED. (23 Psalm; 3)
Spirit becomes QUICKENED (born again of Gods Seed) (1 John 3:9)
*....AND.... MOST IMPORTANTLY
No longer, is Subject to, warnings to Endure to his end...BY his OWN POWER... BECAUSE
* That individual IS FOREVER "kept WITH" the Lord God Almighty...."EXPRESSLY BY GODS POWER (WHO IS CHRIST), IS "IN" that person".
* That is WHY, A persons NAME, entered "INTO" the Lamb's BOOK of LIFE, can NEVER be Blotted out... The WHOLE dynamics CHANGE, From the Lord God being "WITH and WITHOUT" a man ... "BY a mans Power to endure"...."TO" Gods POWER... "IN" a person...."THAT NOTHING IS A GREATER POWER TO TAKE GODS POWER "OUT" of that person"....

1 John 4:
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: BECAUSE greater is he that is IN you, than he that is in the world.

Dan 7:
[10] A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Rev 20:
[10] A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Rev 20:
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

1 Cor 3:
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The evidence for All individuals, for ALL Judgement(S), are in Gods BOOKS.
All shall be Raised UP, and Stand before the Judge, (body and soul).
*. "WHEN" and (WHAT ie. body, soul, spirit of a man) "each individual IS RAISED UP", IS according TO:
The TIMEFRAME each individual WAS naturally born upon this earth, According TO: WHAT "amount of Gods Knowledge and Requirements" TO Be "WITH God", was given to man upon the earth.

Scripturally...we discover;
Souls separate from bodys at bodily death. By Gods Power, souls have returned to body's, and the body's rise up and resume living....
Some living souls have risen to Heaven. Some living souls have been cast to Hell.
Dead Bodies are in their graves, returning to dust, waiting to be united with their souls and raised up. Some natural spirits of men have been Quickened, (born again By Gods Seed).
Some mens bodies shall be risen up, with their restored souls, their spirits quickened and WITH the Lord in His millennial Kingdom, while morals still occupy the earth. Some dead bodies with saved souls, will NOT have their "natural spirits" Quickened (receive Gods Seed), until After the millennial Reign.
Some mens living souls will be returned to their body's, their body's raised up, Judged damned (by their name having been BLOTTED OUT of Gods Book of Life)...and Life in the soul, returned to God, and the body and soul destroyed.
POINT BEING
There is NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL.
Every man (whether or not proclaiming to be "part of a group") faces a Judgement FOR,
the "Choices he makes" for; that which BECOMES "applicable" FOR "WHAT" and "WHEN" becomes OF:
his body,
his soul,
his spirit.

In what Scripture called; "these last days"...
(Heb 1:2) Effected 2,000 + Years Ago...
God Gave the World AN Amazing, Mysterious, Marvelous OFFERING to ALL of mankind OF the World....WHICH....ANY man, could Freely Choose TO Accept or Reject.

THAT OFFERING...WAS/IS, THE ASSURANCE,
OF A "WAY" "FOR" an individual TO BE "MADE" ONCE and FOREVER... WITH The Lord God Almighty, MADE so, and KEPT so; BY HIS POWER "IN" them.

Yes...God Chose us FIRST, when He created and made us.
Yes...God Chose individuals TO effect His Will be accomplished.
Yes...Jesus Chose individuals TO effect Gods Will be accomplished.
Yes...Some men 'acquiesced" TO, and DID Gods WILL.
Yes ...Some men "rejected" TO DO, Gods Will.
Yes...Men Freely Choose God.
Yes...Men Freely Choose Jesus.
Yes...Men Freely Choose Christ.
Yes...Men Freely Choose to reject God.
Yes...Men Freely Choose to reject Jesus.
Yes...Men Freely Choose to reject Christ.
The "Choosing"...BY God is FIRST...
The "Choosing"...BY an individual "IS" thereafter...to STAND WITH the Lord God, OR NOT'
Without a man's Choice in the equation...IT would BE 'FORCE". A facade.
God desires we LOVE HIM. Is it a true Love, if it is FORCED, without choice? Nah.

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

1 Thes 1:
4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

When men debate..."resurrection'...pre-mid-post tribulation....THEY are ALL True, but do not All APPLY to the SAME individual's "body, soul, spirit".

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Pythagorean12]

The Bible does not support predestination.

That's not true. Paul even referred to Predestination 4 times in his Epistles.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=how%20many%20times%20does%20predestination%20appear%20bible&pc=MOZB&form=MOZMBA

 

[Pythagorean12]

One thing stands sure for the Christian student of the bible. If we don't believe in God's sovereign will we can never accept the doctrine of Election. Nor imagine we are the Elect of God.
Can't have 1 w/o the other.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That's not true. Paul even referred to Predestination 4 times in his Epistles.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=how%20many%20times%20does%20predestination%20appear%20bible&pc=MOZB&form=MOZMBA

What was 'predestined' though? Its one thing to say that God had a plan from the beginning of man's rebellion, that involve those "elected" to carry out that plan, and the actual individuals who would do it. This is what is not predetermined.

From your link...
"The term predestination means "to mark out beforehand," and refers to the plan and goal of salvation itself, not to specific individuals. It should be understood in the corporate sense, rather than in the sense that each individual was predestined to either eternal life or eternal condemnation.
In Romans 8:28-30 (quoted above), the Greek term translated whom is plural and therefore refers to a corporate body rather than individual persons. The passage tells us that God knew beforehand that there would be a body of believers, but does not say that He limited the membership of that body to a specific number. It further tells us that the destiny God had in mind for all who would cooperate with His will was "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He [the Son] might be the firstborn among many brethren."

So perhaps a rethink on that might be in order because I believe what is stated there too. When God gave his first prophesy in Genesis 3:15, just after man's fall into sin, the "founding of the world" of mankind, (kosmos) had not yet taken place.....so the plan of salvation was already in place before Adam and his wife produced their children. (Romans 5:8)

One thing stands sure for the Christian student of the bible. If we don't believe in God's sovereign will we can never accept the doctrine of Election. Nor imagine we are the Elect of God.
Can't have 1 w/o the other.

God is the one who "elects" the ones who will rule with Christ in heaven. The first of these were gathered in the first century and the foundations of the Kingdom mentioned in Revelation, are the 12 Apostles. (Revelation 21:14) and members of this group continued to be gathered thereafter, but shortly after the death of the Apostles, a foretold apostasy corrupted the Christian faith, and few were elected through that time because of the massively negative influence that the Roman church had on the Christian faith.....teaching the "commands of men as doctrines" exactly as their predecessors had done. (Matthew 15:7-9) Jesus said that their worship was "in vain".

If we accept the teachings and traditions of Christendom as gospel truth, then we are not on the 'road that leads to life'. (Matthew 7:13-14) These are the "weeds" Jesus warned about.
"Few" are actually on the right track......the "many" are hurtling down an easy road to destruction. We have to know which road we are on, because there are only two, leading in opposite directions.....and we are all on either one or the other.....there is no fence of indecision between them on which to sit. Now is the time to choose where you stand with God, as these "last days" draw to a close.

 

[Pythagorean12]

What was 'predestined' though? Its one thing to say that God had a plan from the beginning of man's rebellion, that involve those "elected" to carry out that plan, and the actual individuals who would do it. This is what is not predetermined.

From your link...
"The term predestination means "to mark out beforehand," and refers to the plan and goal of salvation itself, not to specific individuals. It should be understood in the corporate sense, rather than in the sense that each individual was predestined to either eternal life or eternal condemnation.
In Romans 8:28-30 (quoted above), the Greek term translated whom is plural and therefore refers to a corporate body rather than individual persons. The passage tells us that God knew beforehand that there would be a body of believers, but does not say that He limited the membership of that body to a specific number. It further tells us that the destiny God had in mind for all who would cooperate with His will was "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He [the Son] might be the firstborn among many brethren."

So perhaps a rethink on that might be in order because I believe what is stated there too. When God gave his first prophesy in Genesis 3:15, just after man's fall into sin, the "founding of the world" of mankind, (kosmos) had not yet taken place.....so the plan of salvation was already in place before Adam and his wife produced their children. (Romans 5:8)



God is the one who "elects" the ones who will rule with Christ in heaven. The first of these were gathered in the first century and the foundations of the Kingdom mentioned in Revelation, are the 12 Apostles. (Revelation 21:14) and members of this group continued to be gathered thereafter, but shortly after the death of the Apostles, a foretold apostasy corrupted the Christian faith, and few were elected through that time because of the massively negative influence that the Roman church had on the Christian faith.....teaching the "commands of men as doctrines" exactly as their predecessors had done. (Matthew 15:7-9) Jesus said that their worship was "in vain".

If we accept the teachings and traditions of Christendom as gospel truth, then we are not on the 'road that leads to life'. (Matthew 7:13-14) These are the "weeds" Jesus warned about.
"Few" are actually on the right track......the "many" are hurtling down an easy road to destruction. We have to know which road we are on, because there are only two, leading in opposite directions.....and we are all on either one or the other.....there is no fence of indecision between them on which to sit. Now is the time to choose where you stand with God, as these "last days" draw to a close.

One point though. God predestined all things before he created the world.
One may want to think it is instead God predestined whom he'd save before he created the human race. However, those semantics do not alter the fact God predestined, predetermined, whom he would save before there was a human race that needed saving.

The article is in error in one sense. That predeterminism, predestination, is only in the corporate sense.
Proverbs 16:1 The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Our free will?
Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

Daniel 4:35
“All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’
Source: 58 Bible verses about Predestination


Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
What Does the Bible Say About Mans Heart Plans His Ways But God Directs His Path?

And Ephesians 1:5 God "predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself."
God predestined a few but not all?
Romans 8:29-30
All that we are, all that we think, I'd of and from God. The created derive from the creator.

Psalm 139:7-8

Isaiah 45:7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day
evil.

 

[Davy]

The commentary pointed out from the word what was meant by sheep.
Except I did not sse 'ten' in the verses you gave.

That just confirms all the more that you're lacking in Old Testament Book study...

1 Kings 11:29-35
29 And it came to pass at that time when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him in the way; and he had clad himself with a new garment; and they two were alone in the field:

30 And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces:

31 And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:

32 (But he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel:)

33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.

34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:

35 But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.
KJV


Notice Jeroboam in the above is who God made king over Israel, and it was about TEN TRIBES.

Per 1 Kings 11:28, before the above happened, Solomon had made Jeroboam ruler over all the "house of Joseph". Well who is that "house of Joseph"? That represented the head tribe Ephraim. The tribe of Ephraim was the head that was over all the ten northern tribes. Jeroboam was born of the tribe of Ephraim per 1 Kings 11:26.

I'd really like to take time to chit-chat with you about this matter, but sorry, it's obvious you have some Bible homework to do on it. So I'd wind up trying to spoon-feed you God's Word line upon line when you ought to already know about the matter of the two separate kingdoms that God split old Israel into.

 

[Aunty Jane]

One point though. God predestined all things before he created the world.

Nothing was predestined before God created the earth. But he had a contingency plan for Adam's children even before they were born.
God had a purpose that he laid out to the first pair, but he did not know, or plan for them to fail. What he did was prepare a contingency for all eventualities that might have taken place due to the exercise of their free will. If they had no free will, then the tree in the garden that they were forbidden to touch would have been meaningless. Death would only come by disobedience...a free willed choice of action.

God did not want humankind to be robots or merely programmed by instinct like the animals....they were to represent their Creator here as caretakers and zookeepers, equipped with all the necessary attributes of God himself to do that job well.
God's first purpose got sidelined but it did not disappear. (Isaiah 55:11) Via a detour, God gets us back all that Adam lost for his children.....that is the result of implementing the rulership of the Kingdom.

If humans had never sinned, Christ would never have needed to come and rescue them.

One may want to think it is instead God predestined whom he'd save before he created the human race. However, those semantics do not alter the fact God predestined, predetermined, whom he would save before there was a human race that needed saving.

If God's first purpose had gone ahead (if satan had not derailed it by tempting the humans to separate from their Creator for his own selfish purpose) then a vastly different scenario would have played out.

So what was God's first purpose for mankind?...It was to have a perfect race of human beings who were physically strong and healthy, designed for the task that he had set before them....what was that? The fill the earth with their offspring, and to extend the borders of their paradise home until the whole world was like the garden of Eden. That is what God told them to do.....but satan deceived the woman and then she tempted the man. He had them!...to do with as he pleased.
Because they chose to disobey God, he handed the rulership of the world over to the one they did choose to obey. (Luke 4:5-7)...and the rest, as they say...is history.

The article is in error in one sense. That predeterminism, predestination, is only in the corporate sense.
Proverbs 16:1 The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

So you are now disagreeing with your own link? But they are correct.....it is not individuals who are pre-determined for rulership, only that God's Kingdom would be the means to address the rebellion and to have those whom God 'elected' to do the job of bringing mankind back to paradise.

Jesus warned them....
Revelation 2:10...
"Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison so that you may be fully put to the test, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life."

They had to prove themselves "faithful unto death" in order to receive "the crown of life". No predestination there.
Matthew 24:24...
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect."
If the elect can be misled...then there is no predestination.

Matthew 24:13...
"But the one who has endured to the end will be saved."

Our free will?
Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

Yes....abuse of free will led to death in Eden and still does today. Man has to put aside his own way of doing things, and choose God's way of salvation in order to survive the coming tribulation. You cannot "earn" salvation but you still have to qualify for it.

Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

This is the book of the human genome. All its parts are written in the DNA, which is a code of information concerning the 'assembly' of human beings as well as every creature on earth. This not the book of life.