Explain Revelations So Even I Can Understand It

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Taken

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This is talking about the end time. I do not see them here now.

Correct.
End of days, First sent, to Jerusalem, are the Two Witnesses, to preach the Gospel to /Israel/ the People, FOR:
*(42 months - Rev. 11:3)
(Thereafter the People /Israel/ are instructed to go to the hills.)
Then, a Lamb and the 144,000 preach the Gospel in "the hills", Mt. Zion, FOR:
*(1260 days - Rev.12:6 - Rev. 14:1)
* This is the "blindness" of Israel (the People), being removed, so they become "soul" saved, "before" they are bodily killed, by the armies of the Anti-Christ.
* They become "bodily" raised, spirit quickened, after the millennial reign.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

dad

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I don't know if we agree, either. You have not addressed enough of the things that come to mind from the scriptures, nor your own account.

Let me ask a question or two of you to give you opportunity to explain yourself:

We know that all have sinned and gone astray. And literally, as in the parable, the Good Shepherd searches for the lost sheep and brings it back.

Are you saying that you were able to find God on your own? You chose God of your own power and volition?

Explain the dynamics of the relationship for us, please. You know what we are thinking about with regard to this question, so please educate us, if you would.
Yes I made the choice to accept His free gift of eternal life. He gave me every opportunity and arranged the world so that I had every chance to hear the truth and be able to accept it. The choice was mine. I was not born special so that I never needed to make the decision. No one was.
 

dad

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Correct.
End of days, First sent, to Jerusalem, are the Two Witnesses, to preach the Gospel to /Israel/ the People, FOR:
*(42 months - Rev. 11:3)
(Thereafter the People /Israel/ are instructed to go to the hills.)
Then, a Lamb and the 144,000 preach the Gospel in "the hills", Mt. Zion, FOR:
*(1260 days - Rev.12:6 - Rev. 14:1)
* This is the "blindness" of Israel (the People), being removed, so they become "soul" saved, "before" they are bodily killed, by the armies of the Anti-Christ.
* They become "bodily" raised, spirit quickened, after the millennial reign.

Glory to God,
Taken
It is a little hard to follow your broken sentences. But I think you acknowledge that the 144,000 Jews are still to come in the future.
 

NewMusic

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Yes I made the choice to accept His free gift of eternal life. He gave me every opportunity and arranged the world so that I had every chance to hear the truth and be able to accept it. The choice was mine. I was not born special so that I never needed to make the decision. No one was.

Did Esau get a choice?


Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call,
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The elder will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
 

NewMusic

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Actually, I think I asked the wrong question. I perceive you will say Esau had a choice, but not in the calling regarding election.

Let me come back to you.

Do you take full credit for choosing God, or did He move upon you, supernaturally, to bring you to your senses and enable you to perceive your need for salvation?
 

dad

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Did Esau get a choice?


Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call,
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The elder will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Yes. The prophesy told of their lives later in life. It was after Esau made his choice that he placed himself against God. It was after Jacob chose God that he was loved. Just as the prophesy was for a later time, so was the reaction of God to them for the later time. God did not hate Esau in the womb, as far as I can tell.
 

dad

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Actually, I think I asked the wrong question. I perceive you will say Esau had a choice, but not in the calling regarding election.

Let me come back to you.

Do you take full credit for choosing God, or did He move upon you, supernaturally, to bring you to your senses and enable you to perceive your need for salvation?
He moves on everyone. He loved the world. So that anyone who receives Him will be saved.
 

Taken

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It is a little hard to follow your broken sentences.

Sure. Well aware I'm not a writer. My teaching, has been long time established as a usual face to face, (particularly with deaf people). The who and what being discussed can become easily confusing, (such as; Israel the modern Nation, or Israel a particular lineage of People).

But I think you acknowledge that the 144,000 Jews are still to come in the future.

Yes, the 144,000, shall appear in the future. However they are not all Jews. They are specifically, 12,000 from each of the Twelve Tribes.
*Reuben
*Simeon
*Levi
* Judah
*Dan
*Naphrali
*Gad
*Asher
*Issachar
*Zebulun
*Joseph
*Benjamn

Jew, is a term used for the lineage of persons from the original Tribal Land of Judah. Today, any person descended from any of the orginal Tribes, call themselves Jews.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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God did not hate Esau in the womb, as far as I can tell.

Hate by the "emotional" definition is "a strong dislike".

IMO, "emotional type Love of God applies to all of His creations".

IMO, "Love and Hate", from Gods perspective that is not "emotional", but rather Gods "choosing", for a purpose one can accomplish.
* Meaning "Gods love toward one" is God chooing one that God (foreknows) can accomplish "good" according to Gods pleasure/desire/will.
* Meaning "Gods hate toward one" is God "choosing" one that God (foreknows) can accomplish "evil" according to Gods pleasure/desire/will.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Pythagorean12

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Not true. I simply do not do violence to the meaning in order to justify some pet belief as some do.

If you understood that Jesus did not die for nothing we would not have an issue.
That you insist my observations claim Jesus died for nothing is your issue alone. Nothing I've said even implies such a thing.

The pet sophistry is yours alone.
I don't think we'll do anything but go in circles if we continue.
 

Pythagorean12

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But that is where you are mistaken....like a lot of other people, you take the "founding of the world" to be the creation of the planet....it isn't.
This is the "founding of the kosmos" which means...."an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government....the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family". This is "the world of mankind"...the start of the human race descended from Adam and his wife reproductively.

The word "foundation" here is "katabolē" and it means..
  1. a throwing or laying down
    1. the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
    2. of the seed of plants and animals
This is not talking about the creation of the planet, but the reproductive creation of mankind....and even used of plants and animals.

So God put in place the means of salvation from the time of the fall....before Adam and his wife had children.
That is when his book began to be written to include all those who carried out the will of God from the time of Abel onward. They are mentioned by name in Hebrews ch 11. God remembers every one of them.


Jesus indicated that he could "blot out names from the book of life". (Revelation 3:5)
So no human is predestined for life or death....they choose to serve God of their own free will....and once on the path to life, they have to remain there, despite temptations that the devil will use to sidetrack us. Why do you think the devil tried to tempt Jesus?


We have to believe all of God's word...not just the bits that agree with our chosen views.
Have it as you prefer then. The same doctrine of God's still applies.
Before he created the human race, he put the names of his Elect unto salvation into the lambs book of life.
 

dad

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Sure. Well aware I'm not a writer. My teaching, has been long time established as a usual face to face, (particularly with deaf people). The who and what being discussed can become easily confusing, (such as; Israel the modern Nation, or Israel a particular lineage of People).



Yes, the 144,000, shall appear in the future. However they are not all Jews. They are specifically, 12,000 from each of the Twelve Tribes.
*Reuben
*Simeon
*Levi
* Judah
*Dan
*Naphrali
*Gad
*Asher
*Issachar
*Zebulun
*Joseph
*Benjamn

Jew, is a term used for the lineage of persons from the original Tribal Land of Judah. Today, any person descended from any of the orginal Tribes, call themselves Jews.

Glory to God,
Taken
I see. Well, I guess I used the term Jew loosely. The point was that the 144,000 from the various tribes were people that are commonly called Jews today, descendants of Abraham etc.
 
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dad

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Hate by the "emotional" definition is "a strong dislike".

IMO, "emotional type Love of God applies to all of His creations".

IMO, "Love and Hate", from Gods perspective that is not "emotional", but rather Gods "choosing", for a purpose one can accomplish.
* Meaning "Gods love toward one" is God chooing one that God (foreknows) can accomplish "good" according to Gods pleasure/desire/will.
* Meaning "Gods hate toward one" is God "choosing" one that God (foreknows) can accomplish "evil" according to Gods pleasure/desire/will.

Glory to God,
Taken
Right, when people reject Him, they get into a horrible state. God hates that. I hate that also.
 
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Wrangler

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I see. Well, I guess I used the term Jew loosely.

As do I. Some here on this forum get all offended when I use the term synonymously with all Israel. The technical argument being that the term Jew is pejorative in referring to but one tribe of Israel, Judah.

I'm not sure if Hebrew is the proper term but is longer to spell than Jew. I had an aunt and cousins who called themselves Jewish. I never thought it was an insult until I joined this forum.
 

dad

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That you insist my observations claim Jesus died for nothing is your issue alone. Nothing I've said even implies such a thing.
On the contrary, it is not my problem at all. I know He died for us. That was not for nothing. For those choosing to interpret His word as if He pre fixed everything so that people cannot choose God or Satan, life or death, they make the cross to no effect.
 

dad

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As do I. Some here on this forum get all offended when I use the term synonymously with all Israel. The technical argument being that the term Jew is pejorative in referring to but one tribe of Israel, Judah.

I'm not sure if Hebrew is the proper term but is longer to spell than Jew. I had an aunt and cousins who called themselves Jewish. I never thought it was an insult until I joined this forum.
Long as we know who we are talking about, I suppose we could call them jelly beans, or tomatoes, or the X group etc. People should not get offended if we do not use technical terms, or politically correct words.
 
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Wrangler

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People should not get offended

Amen! That's practically a commandment in Scripture.

Perhaps its a way for people to sneak in their being learned. The shadow of pride, that is. Putting aside word usage is intent. Do people intent to offend in using words? Let's take the N-word. How come it's not offensive when X says it to other X? Odd huh? I guess it's only offensive if other people do it.

Double standards that is.


The LORD detests double standards; he is not pleased by dishonest scales
Proverbs 20:23
 

dad

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Amen! That's practically a commandment in Scripture.

Perhaps its a way for people to sneak in their being learned. The shadow of pride, that is. Putting aside word usage is intent. Do people intent to offend in using words? Let's take the N-word. How come it's not offensive when X says it to other X? Odd huh? I guess it's only offensive if other people do it.

Double standards that is.


The LORD detests double standards; he is not pleased by dishonest scales
Proverbs 20:23
I agree. I used to like comedy before the days of political correctness. It seems like people have lost their sense of humour and, as the french say, the 'Joie de vivre'. It has gotten to be more like a starchy religious hypocrisy of the irreligious in a nation beginning the phases of rigor mortis.
 

Davy

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Wow. You believe that? Prove it. When I check stats it is a tiny percentage in Israel that believe in their Messiah.

You're understanding shows you're lacking in Old Testament Book study.

1. In Rehoboam's day (Solomon's son), God split old Israel into two kingdoms, the "kingdom of Judah" (JEWS), and the "kingdom of Israel" (TEN TRIBES). So YES... I am "invoking" the ten tribes subject!

2. Those two kingdoms, also called the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel", had war against each other. The kingdom of Judah involved only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. The ten northern tribes made up Israel then.

3. Only those of the "kingdom of Judah" became known as JEWS, that title coming from the tribe of Judah.

4. After this split, the "house of Israel" means the ten northern tribes ONLY.

5. God brought the kings of Assyria upon the ten northern tribes first, and removed all of them out of the land of Israel to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. They NEVER returned as a people, and are STILL scattered in the countries to this day. The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said the ten tribes were still beyond Euphrates in his day, and was a great number of people, too many to count.

6. ONLY the "house of Judah" (JEWS) in Judea-Jerusalem was left in the holy land after God removed the ten tribes.

7. Then the "house of Judah" fell away like the ten tribes did, and God brought the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar upon them, destroyed Jerusalem and Solomon's temple, and took the "house of Judah" captive to Babylon for 70 years. THIS DID NOT involve the ten northern tribes of Israel.

8. After Judah's 70 years Babylon captivity, a SMALL remnant of the "house of Judah" returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the city, walls, and temple. This DID NOT involve the ten tribes which were still scattered beyond Euphrates.

9. The MAJOIRITY of the house of Judah chose to stay in Babylon after the 70 years captivity, because God had promised to take care of them there, and He did. Then from Babylon they were further scattered through the countries.

10. the MAJORITY of the seed of Israel was with the ten northern tribes of Israel, and no doubt still is.

11. the ten scattered tribes of the "house of Israel" became LOST, and did not return to the holy lands. As written in Hosea, God said they would lose their way back, lose knowledge of His feasts, new moons, etc., and they no longer were His people (Hebrew lo-ami). But He said He would not do this to Judah, thus the JEWS have always kept their heritage as part of God's Israel.

12. in Romans 9, Apostle Paul writing to Gentile Roman believers, quoted from the Book of Hosea which was written ONLY to the "house of Israel" (ten northern tribes). Paul used that to point to BOTH the ten tribes WITH Gentiles together, as one body, as the children of God, with God calling them Ami, My people.

13. because Paul used the Hosea Scripture to point to believing Gentiles on Christ, along with believing Israel of the ten tribes, that PUTS THEM TOGETHER IN THE SAME PLACE WITH HEARING THE GOSPEL.

14. Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the "house of Israel". That He literally meant the ten tribe "house of Israel" after the split particularly became FACT when He was rejected by the majority of JEWS in Jerusalem, and The Gospel instead was believed among scattered Israel along with Gentiles, and this gave birth to the WESTERN CHRISTIAN NATIONS OF HISTORY.
 
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dad

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You're understanding shows you're lacking in Old Testament Book study.

1. In Rehoboam's day (Solomon's son), God split old Israel into two kingdoms, the "kingdom of Judah" (JEWS), and the "kingdom of Israel" (TEN TRIBES). So YES... I am "invoking" the ten tribes subject!
Hmm
2. Those two kingdoms, also called the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel", had war against each other. The kingdom of Judah involved only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. The ten northern tribes made up Israel then.

3. Only those of the "kingdom of Judah" became known as JEWS, that title coming from the tribe of Judah.

4. After this split, the "house of Israel" means the ten northern tribes ONLY.

5. God brought the kings of Assyria upon the ten northern tribes first, and removed all of them out of the land of Israel to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. They NEVER returned as a people, and are STILL scattered in the countries to this day. The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said the ten tribes were still beyond Euphrates in his day, and was a great number of people, too many to count.

6. ONLY the "house of Judah" (JEWS) in Judea-Jerusalem was left in the holy land after God removed the ten tribes.

7. Then the "house of Judah" fell away like the ten tribes did, and God brought the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar upon them, destroyed Jerusalem and Solomon's temple, and took the "house of Judah" captive to Babylon for 70 years. THIS DID NOT involve the ten northern tribes of Israel.

8. After Judah's 70 years Babylon captivity, a SMALL remnant of the "house of Judah" returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the city, walls, and temple. This DID NOT involve the ten tribes which were still scattered beyond Euphrates.

9. The MAJOIRITY of the house of Judah chose to stay in Babylon after the 70 years captivity, because God had promised to take care of them there, and He did. Then from Babylon they were further scattered through the countries.

10. the MAJORITY of the seed of Israel was with the ten northern tribes of Israel, and no doubt still is.

11. the ten scattered tribes of the "house of Israel" became LOST, and did not return to the holy lands. As written in Hosea, God said they would lose their way back, lose knowledge of His feasts, new moons, etc., and they no longer were His people (Hebrew lo-ami). But He said He would not do this to Judah, thus the JEWS have always kept their heritage as part of God's Israel.

12. in Romans 9, Apostle Paul writing to Gentile Roman believers, quoted from the Book of Hosea which was written ONLY to the "house of Israel" (ten northern tribes). Paul used that to point to BOTH the ten tribes WITH Gentiles together, as one body, as the children of God, with God calling them Ami, My people.

13. because Paul used the Hosea Scripture to point to believing Gentiles on Christ, along with believing Israel of the ten tribes, that PUTS THEM TOGETHER IN THE SAME PLACE WITH HEARING THE GOSPEL.

14. Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the "house of Israel". That He literally meant the ten tribe "house of Israel" after the split particularly became FACT when He was rejected by the majority of JEWS in Jerusalem, and The Gospel instead was believed among scattered Israel along with Gentiles, and this gave birth to the WESTERN CHRISTIAN NATIONS OF HISTORY.
Looking at a commentary we see this
"To the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He bestows the designation of sheep of the house of Israel not on the elect only, but on all who were descended from the holy fathers; for the Lord had included all in the covenant, and was promised indiscriminately to all as a Redeemer, as he also revealed and offered himself to all without exception. It is worthy of observation, that he declares himself to have been sent to LOST sheep, as he assures us in another passage that he came to save that which was lost..

Matthew 15 - Calvin's Commentary on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

So you may not limit the house of Israel to ten tribes. Not with any authority.