Explain Revelations So Even I Can Understand It

[Aunty Jane]

Did you just dodge? :) Are the JWs the only ones doing His will at present, or are non JWs doing so as well? Just trying to get an answer from an actual Jehovahs Witness. I have no idea personally.

Let me put it this way.....
Matthew 24:45, as part of the sign Jesus gave concerning the “end of the age”, he asked...
“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?”
So there is an appointed “slave” with whom the Master left his entire household, at this time to be fed by ‘him’, their “food at the proper time”.

Remember that Jesus asked Peter to “feed” his sheep? He was not talking about physical food, but good spiritual nourishment.
Those assigned to feed Jesus’ household of “slaves” had an important job.....but in phrasing this as a question, it was obvious that discernment was needed to identify him.

There was only one table at which to “feed”.....as Paul said....
“...what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. 21 You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons.”

These are the only two choices. If we are not feeding at Jehovah’s table, then we are being fed by the demons. It looks appetising but it is death dealing.

Now, in view of the fact that satan sowed the “weeds” of false Christianity in the world, we have to be especially careful about where we source our “food”.....the great deceiver has had millenniums to perfect his craft.....what may sound like the truth, can be a convincing counterfeit.

How will we know? We will be attracted to either one or the other......that is how God knows who we are.....and he will not interfere with our choices. Those whom Jesus rejects at the judgment are so sure that they were doing all things ‘in Jesus’ name’ (Matthew 7:21-23).....but they would have included justifying all manner of things that are approved in the world to men, but not to God.

The reason why I decided to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses was because, they fulfilled the criteria that Jesus himself set for his disciples.....none of the churches of Christendom did. I can give you a list of the these things that bothered me before I left my church.....because I came to understand why they bothered me so much. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

Ok, now that WAS a dodge. You gotta cut that out. We're both intelligent enough to know that both of us lay claim to receiving "Bible teaching." Jehovahs Witnesses don't have an exclusive claim on that, no matter how much they'd like to.

There is one truth and we have to find the ones who teach it.....our hearts will be drawn to them because when we hear the Bible’s message about the Kingdom, it strikes a cord that is not easily dismissed. (John 6:44; 65) Once you embark on this spiritual path, there is a hunger created that few actually act on...content to allow others to spoon feed them rather than doing their own research......so again, that appetite has to be satisfied at the right table. Since JW teachings are completely different to the teachings accepted by all of Christendom we have to weigh up some things....

Firstly that “few” are on the road to life (Matthew 7:13-14) so we do not expect the “wheat” to be in the majority.......and secondly, that the separation of the “wheat from the weeds” takes place before the harvest, when the weeds are gathered for disposal, before the “wheat” are gathered into God’s storehouse. I believe that the separation is now almost complete....you may differ, and that is your choice to make.

Jane, this is circular. He did command the Jews to fight, and those Jews who have not yet received Jesus as their Messiah will therefore still feel as though they are commanded to fight for their land. It is their birthright, and they believe in a physical inheritance in the land God promised to Abraham.

Using ancient Israel as justification for Christians going to war is completely invalid. When Jesus walked the earth Israel’s homeland was occupied by worshippers of foreign gods. They no longer had a military force. The Christian Era ushered in the “new covenant” and a new set of rules....rules that involved no bloodshed. (2 Corinthians 10:3-4; Romans 12:17-21)

Israel only ever went to war to secure and to protect their God-given land...but due to their own disobedience, they lost it. After their exile in Babylon, and the destruction of Jerusalem, along with it’s Temple, things were never quite the same again. A remnant of the Jews did return and rebuild their city and their Temple, but as the faithful leaders died, the decline in their behavior continued until the last OT prophet had delivered his unpopular message. About 400 years elapsed before Jesus took up his mantle as Messiah, but by then the nation as a whole was lost, spiritually speaking. Jesus’ condemnation in Matthew 23, said in all. They were not even a shadow of what God told them to be.

If you remember too, Jesus’ words to the Samaritan woman at the well....
John 4:20-24....
“Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

This is key to understanding that geography has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation might have ‘begun with the Jews’, but it does not end with them. God chose a new nation to represent him....’spiritual Israel’......and we have to be part of that nation.

 

[dad]

Except that's not what God told us in his word. We conversely are able to tell ourselves anything. And believe it.
If God didn't say it, it's sophistry.
Sophistry does not lead to salvation

Except, yes it is. The us means us who believe and have chosen Him. He did not die for nothing, sorry.

 

[dad]

Well, No and Yes.
The Scriptural "promised" land, "intended" for Gods people (homeland) encompasses, a portion of the land, called the Nation of Israel "today".
That same "portion" was controlled by England and acquesiced to the People, "Israel", (ie calling themselves Jews).
Many Jews, scattered around the world, Have journeyed to Israel (the Nation), to make that their home (State/Nation).
Not to over look, that land was and still is also home of many Gentiles/ some Christian/ many Islamic.
Also being neighbors with Islamic Nations, there is always a religious uneasiness stirring.
In the Future, Land border will be expanded to include All of the "promised land", and be the setting for Jesus' Earthy millennial kingdom.

Glory to God,
Taken

OK, I agree they (the remnant that believe) will get all the land promised to them..

 

[dad]

Rev 14:
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
[5] And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Glory to God,
Taken

This is talking about the end time. I do not see them here now.

 

[dad]

prolly better to refer to them as a country?

OK

 

[Curtis]

If people here actually read and understood the Prophetic Word, they would see that God has gathered Judah; the Jewish State of Israel, for Judgment and punishment. Over 20 prophesies say how they will be Judged and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Romans 9:27


The Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy Land, all that area given to Abraham, Deuteronomy 32:34-43, and the faithful Christian peoples, from every tribe [of Israel], race, nation and language. The descendants of Jacob by faith will inherit the holy Land and will live there in peace and prosperity. Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26
It is we Christians who are there when Gog and his horde attacks, Ezekiel 38:10-12
John sees us there; in Revelation 7:9.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew

 

[Pythagorean12]

Except, yes it is. The us means us who believe and have chosen Him. He did not die for nothing, sorry.

Don't presume I need an apology.
Jesus died for the Elect.

Jesus told his disciples, and us, that he chose us. We did not choose him. John 15:16, Ephesians1:4.

No one comes to Jesus, chooses Jesus, unless the Father draws them. John 6:44

1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Matthew 13:10-11,
Mark 4:10-13.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Of course there are devout Jews....but if they deny the Christ, that is all they are. What did Jesus say to them?
Matthew 15:7-9
“You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

Being ‘devout’ cuts no mustard with Jehovah if our worship is misdirected. Jesus said that their worship was “in vain”. If they still believe the same things...what’s changed?

Saul of Tarsus was a “devout Jew” too.....what was he doing to the Christians? And what did Jesus do to him? Not everyone get a tap on the shoulder like he did. Jesus knew that his zeal was sincere, but misdirected.

Gonna have to postpone for the time being, Jane. But I'll try and get back to you when I can.

God bless,
Hidden

 

[dad]

Don't presume I need an apology.
Jesus died for the Elect.

Actually God died for the world He loved so whoever wanted could be saved because of the price He paid. It does not say that 'God so loved the elect, that He gave His Son..' Once people elect to accept Jesus they are the elect. That is His selection process.

Jesus told his disciples, and us, that he chose us. We did not choose him. John 15:16, Ephesians1:4.

His apostles were chosen by Him, they did not pick Him to get a job. They did love and believe though, so they were chosen. Even an unsaved apostle was chosen. Not for eternal life (he would have had to choose that himself) but for the job and position. Judas was chosen for the job also, so you can't claim chosen means saved. Only those who choose Jesus are the chosen ones. It was decided before the world began that we could be able to choose. Because He gave us that choice, when we choose Him we are saved.

No one comes to Jesus, chooses Jesus, unless the Father draws them. John 6:44

The Father tries to draw all men! He even sent His only son to us so we would be able to draw near to Him. Once we draw near by choosing Jesus, then He draws us even closer. Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. That does not mean He draws some special elite few regardless, and damns a majority of mankind without any choice. No way.

 

[Pythagorean12]

Actually God died for the world He loved so whoever wanted could be saved because of the price He paid. It does not say that 'God so loved the elect, that He gave His Son..' Once people elect to accept Jesus they are the elect. That is His selection process.

His apostles were chosen by Him, they did not pick Him to get a job. They did love and believe though, so they were chosen. Even an unsaved apostle was chosen. Not for eternal life (he would have had to choose that himself) but for the job and position. Judas was chosen for the job also, so you can't claim chosen means saved. Only those who choose Jesus are the chosen ones. It was decided before the world began that we could be able to choose. Because He gave us that choice, when we choose Him we are saved.

The Father tries to draw all men! He even sent His only son to us so we would be able to draw near to Him. Once we draw near by choosing Jesus, then He draws us even closer. Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. That does not mean He draws some special elite few regardless, and damns a majority of mankind without any choice. Not way.

Bingo, that is why I am trying to explain these things to you.

You actually don't understand that what you call bingo, in the 1st Corinthians verse, is in reality refuting everything you just said prior to it.

John 3:16 . Did you know the NT's original text was in Koine Greek?
And that there is no Join Greek corresponding word to the English word in that verse that reads as, whosoever?
" The original language of the book of John is Koine Greek, but there is no
Greek word that corresponds to the English word "whosoever." The Greek
word is actually a phrase that is difficult to express in English.

This phrase is "pas ho pisteuwn," which translated literally in English
means "in order that every the one believing in Him, not to perish, but have
everlasting life." "Pas" means "all" or "every," and it modifies "ho pisteuwn."

The simple way to put it is "all the believing ones," or "everyone be-
lieving.". "

A New Creation: John 3:16 and the Word "Whosoever"

 

[dad]

You actually don't understand that what you call bingo, in the 1st Corinthians verse, is in reality refuting everything you just said prior to it.

Not if you understand what you read. You pretty much don't.

John 3:16 . Did you know the NT's original text was in Koine Greek?
And that there is no Join Greek corresponding word to the English word in that verse that reads as, whosoever?
" The original language of the book of John is Koine Greek, but there is no
Greek word that corresponds to the English word "whosoever." The Greek
word is actually a phrase that is difficult to express in English.

This phrase is "pas ho pisteuwn," which translated literally in English
means "in order that every the one believing in Him, not to perish, but have
everlasting life." "Pas" means "all" or "every," and it modifies "ho pisteuwn."

The simple way to put it is "all the believing ones," or "everyone be-
lieving.". "

A New Creation: John 3:16 and the Word "Whosoever"

Nope, same deal. Every one believing in Him or whosoever believeth etc. All the same. No pre destiny at all there. The only pre destiny is the plan of salvation or the Way that He made for us to be able to be saved. That was pre decided. NOT who would or could chose to walk in that way. Period.

Looking at the definition of the word whosoever we see this..

Thayer's

1. individually
   1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2. collectively
   1. some of all types

Strong's
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Interlinear Search for 'John 3:16' - KJV with the ALE and TR - StudyLight.org

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

rev12:7 not literal but spiritual i bet all answers are just a probability not definite then everyone will come up with answers and then debate then end up not winning at all
about nostradamus those are not nostradamus predictions but the interpreter's nostradamus did not say zombie but the translators did

 

[Aunty Jane]

Because God wrote those names before the foundation, creation, of the world.
Thinking he could later erase a name is denying God's Omniscience, and plan. And it is also denying what Jesus, who was God, promised. All that the father gives him will come to him. And no one will take us from his hand.

But that is where you are mistaken....like a lot of other people, you take the "founding of the world" to be the creation of the planet....it isn't.
This is the "founding of the kosmos" which means...."an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government....the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family". This is "the world of mankind"...the start of the human race descended from Adam and his wife reproductively.

The word "foundation" here is "katabolē" and it means..

1. a throwing or laying down
   
   1. the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
      
   2. of the seed of plants and animals
      

This is not talking about the creation of the planet, but the reproductive creation of mankind....and even used of plants and animals.

So God put in place the means of salvation from the time of the fall....before Adam and his wife had children.
That is when his book began to be written to include all those who carried out the will of God from the time of Abel onward. They are mentioned by name in Hebrews ch 11. God remembers every one of them.

When God tells us he wrote the names of his Elect in his Book of Life before the foundation of the world, how do we say he didn't see there may be a reason to erase some later on? Because we can do something God didn't foresee when he first put our name down in his book.

Jesus indicated that he could "blot out names from the book of life". (Revelation 3:5)
So no human is predestined for life or death....they choose to serve God of their own free will....and once on the path to life, they have to remain there, despite temptations that the devil will use to sidetrack us. Why do you think the devil tried to tempt Jesus?

Why do we believe in God's word and then doubt his word as written?
And since when are we arrogant enough to think we know more than God? And our choice can overcome his will and plan for all things?

We have to believe all of God's word...not just the bits that agree with our chosen views.

 

[dad]

rev12:7 not literal but spiritual

How would you know?

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

and if there is no winner no topic will closed it's still open to what? to more confusion no wonder the word of God said not to argue in vain in his words

 

[Pythagorean12]

Not if you understand what you read. You pretty much don't.



Nope, same deal. Every one believing in Him or whosoever believeth etc. All the same. No pre destiny at all there. The only pre destiny is the plan of salvation or the Way that He made for us to be able to be saved. That was pre decided. NOT who would or could chose to walk in that way. Period.

You excise parts of the bible that don't conform to your preferred narrative and then accuse me of not understanding that.

And you're right. I won't understand how someone debates the bible after they dare edit out , ignore, parts of God's message they refuse to accept is there.
That's a characteristic of Sophestry.

You follow Sophistry.
Sophestry does not save.

 

[dad]

You excise parts of the bible that don't conform to your preferred narrative and then accuse me of not understanding that.

Not true. I simply do not do violence to the meaning in order to justify some pet belief as some do.

And you're right. I won't understand how someone debates the bible after they dare edit out , ignore, parts of God's message they refuse to accept is there.
That's a characteristic of Sophestry.

If you understood that Jesus did not die for nothing we would not have an issue.

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

How would you know?

i don't

 

[FHII]

Just read a thread about war in heaven via Rev 12:7. Though I read revelations 3x, I confess I cannot keep it in my head. I even read a book by a Rabbi who did an excellent analysis of connecting the many figurative passages.

The 1st time I read Revelations, I thought John must have been smoking something strong when he wrote it.

In the thread referenced above, several poster got into the phases of tribulation and that is not made clear to me from the text. Like Nostradamus predictions, passages are written so figuratively, they can be taken to mean nearly anything.

So, can anyone explain this book at a 4th grade level in just a short paragraph or two?

Yeah sure... Like I can explain Alice in Wonderland, which is adored by 4th graders as well, but not easily explained to a 4th grader!

And unfortunately, I already used up one paragraph! But the book of Revelation was written sometime around 65 and 97 AD and describes things that will happen in the future from that point. The book says "shortly will come to pass" but with God that's a loose term. We are alive for 74 years or so, but with God a thousand years is a short time. But what is described is the downward spiral of mankind, yet tge escape of the true sons of God who are on the earth. Finally, it describes how God will purify the earth and redeem the pure in heart who have faith.

 

[NewMusic]

I cannot think that it is true that people are born saved or damned. Jesus paid a very very very heavy price to make a way for all who would believe. If it was pre destined, that would not be necessary. We step in to the pre destined Way He made for us to have eternal life. No one is born with it. What we are born with is that there is a way for us if we choose. If the book of life were all set in stone no one could have their name erased from it! How would they do that? By refusing the love of God in Jesus, who offered them eternal life if they would. No one made them reject Him. They had the choice. Just as Adam had the choice. We are chosen because we chose Him. We were chosen before the world began because we would choose Him. He died for something, not nothing.
So, do we agree? I don't know.

I don't know if we agree, either. You have not addressed enough of the things that come to mind from the scriptures, nor your own account.

Let me ask a question or two of you to give you opportunity to explain yourself:

We know that all have sinned and gone astray. And literally, as in the parable, the Good Shepherd searches for the lost sheep and brings it back.

Are you saying that you were able to find God on your own? You chose God of your own power and volition?

Explain the dynamics of the relationship for us, please. You know what we are thinking about with regard to this question, so please educate us, if you would.