Eternal Security

[Jane_Doe22]

Why would anyone in their right mind do that?

The same reason anyone chooses mammon over Christ.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

I thought the OP was about Romans?
Didn't I write it?

Did anyone have a chance to read these texts (1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13) for the discussion on the OP topic?

This is about the OP RT, and will shed light on Romans, including God's calling. Are you no longer desiring to discuss this? We didn't get very far.

 

[amadeus]

Why would anyone in their right mind do that? If someone offered you a million dollars with no strings attached, would you walk away or jump for joy? Eternal life cannot be measured in dollars, but it would be equivalent to billions.

Why would Adam and Eve with the blessings that they had disobey God? But they did? Were they our of their minds?

 

[amadeus]

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:17-18

Jesus did it for good, but we do it for naught.

 

[Stranger]

When the Christian dies and goes to Heaven, does he have eternal security there? If so, why?

Will the believer have a 'will' in Heaven or not?

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Before you can talk with the larger Christian audience about OSAS, you must first talk about whether or not a person always has free will. This because OSAS is theologically dependent on the idea that a saved person no longer has free will in this regard.

I've been trying to tell Rollo this for years now.
If we cannot LEAVE GOD after we become saved,
it means we have lost our free will.

And the entire bible assures us that we DO have free will.
Which means we could leave God, if we so chose to.

Because most, or the large majority, of Christians remain with God all their life, does not mean that it's IMPOSSIBLE to leave Him and become lost again.

This is the crux of the matter....
I say that if the N.T. makes provision for leaving God, it means it can happen.

Hebrews 6:4-6
2 Peter 2:20-22 makes this very clear. But I'm told by the OSAS crowd that it's speaking about false teachers. It doesn't matter WHO it's speaking of....they once believed and now no longer believe.

 

[bbyrd009]

Before you can talk with the larger Christian audience about OSAS, you must first talk about whether or not a person always has free will. This because OSAS is theologically dependent on the idea that a saved person no longer has free will in this regard.

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is about the OP RT, and will shed light on Romans, including God's calling. Are you no longer desiring to discuss this? We didn't get very far.

Is this your first forum?
We don't speak to one person here....just say what you want to say and it could even be specifically to one person.

But anyone can answer and join in.
Just say what you want to say!
We all have the privilege of reading along...!
:)

 

[Enoch111]

Why would Adam and Eve with the blessings that they had disobey God? But they did? Were they our of their minds?

I've asked myself the same question many times, and you have arrived at the right conclusion -- they were indeed out of their minds. They had everything to lose and nothing to gain from their escapade, but they acted like fools.

From the narrative it should be noted that both Eve and the Serpent (Satan) were fully aware of the commandment given to Adam. Yet they both played with the words of God in order to accommodate their respective agendas. And it would appear that Adam was *asleep at the wheel* instead of watching over his spouse. What an absolute mess for two who had every reason to behave like godly and intelligent beings and drive the Serpent out of Eden.

 

[GodsGrace]

When the Christian dies and goes to Heaven, does he have eternal security there? If so, why?

Will the believer have a 'will' in Heaven or not?

Stranger

Why do you ask this?

Yes. Because after we die we go to be where we'll be spending eternity.
If we have the life of Jesus in us, we go to be with Him,
If we've been serving the enemy, we go to be with him.
John 3:16

We will not have a will in heaven. Our will will be perfectly aligned with God.
We will no longer have the choice of good or evil...but only of good.

OK. So I bit.
Now tell me what I bit into.

 

[Enoch111]

If we cannot LEAVE GOD after we become saved, it means we have lost our free will.

Not necessarily. It means that those who have received Christ have no reason or desire to walk away from the blessings of God and Christ. Would anyone who has been rescued from a cesspool, and been washed and cleansed, want to dive right back into it and the stink?

And in any event they cannot be "unborn" as children of God, but they will be chastised if they get out of line. But their wills are ideally surrendered to God and Christ, since that is what genuine repentance is all about. If not, they were never truly saved, but simply made a profession of being saved.

We should always keep in mind that Satan loves to promote the idea that Christians -- genuine children of God -- can lose their salvation, or that salvation is not a free gift of God's grace. He hates the idea that there are millions who have been saved by grace, and not of themselves, since he knows his final destination is Hell. Hence he does everything to confuse and deceive people into such preposterous ideas.

 

[Helen]

:)

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Is this your first forum?
We don't speak to one person here....just say what you want to say and it could even be specifically to one person.

But anyone can answer and join in.
Just say what you want to say!
We all have the privilege of reading along...!
:)

I am after RT to be straight up. The person who posted the OP ought to be able to speak about the subject when someone questions their thesis, as it is written:

1 Pet. 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Pro. 18:17 He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.

I provided the texts to demonstrate the point (1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13). Was King Saul called by God, yes or no?

I can do the same for the NT also.

RT says in the OP, "One who is truly filled with the Spirit of God will never give up their eternal security."

Who determines "truly"?

 

[GodsGrace]

I am after RT to be straight up. The person who posted the OP ought to be able to speak about the subject when someone questions their thesis, as it is written:

1 Pet. 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Pro. 18:17 He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.

I provided the texts to demonstrate the point (1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13). Was King Saul called by God, yes or no?

I can do the same for the NT also.

RT says in the OP, "One who is truly filled with the Spirit of God will never give up their eternal security."

Who determines "truly"?

Great question.
Certainly RT doesn't believe that HE determines who is truly a believer.
It's the old idea that if one is "truly" saved he will never walk away.
You know, they weren't really saved to begin with.
This necessarily means that those with this idea KNOW who is saved and who isn't! A rather big job to do and big shoes to fill.

As to getting RT to speak up...good luck.
That will happen if he feels like it !
:)

 

[amadeus]

I've asked myself the same question many times, and you have arrived at the right conclusion -- they were indeed out of their minds. They had everything to lose and nothing to gain from their escapade, but they acted like fools.

And so do people today, I believe, who have come to know Jesus, at times act like fools when they fail to continue what He started for them.

From the narrative it should be noted that both Eve and the Serpent (Satan) were fully aware of the commandment given to Adam. Yet they both played with the words of God in order to accommodate their respective agendas. And it would appear that Adam was *asleep at the wheel* instead of watching over his spouse. What an absolute mess for two who had every reason to behave like godly and intelligent beings and drive the Serpent out of Eden.

What I look for is God's plan. He had a plan all of the time from the time He created those two up to and including you and me. How well do we know His plan and immerse ourselves into His plan? When we first come to the Lord, we see His plan, but "as through a glass darkly". As we move toward Him, [if we do], we will be seeing His plan more clearly, having some of the shadowed areas entlightened, until finally we should be arriving at the "face to face". This is our "vision" of His plan.

What part of the plan were Adam and Eve as per their activities in Genesis?

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

 

[GodsGrace]

Not necessarily. It means that those who have received Christ have no reason or desire to walk away from the blessings of God and Christ. Would anyone who has been rescued from a cesspool, and been washed and cleansed, want to dive right back into it and the stink?

And in any event they cannot be "unborn" as children of God, but they will be chastised if they get out of line. But their wills are ideally surrendered to God and Christ, since that is what genuine repentance is all about. If not, they were never truly saved, but simply made a profession of being saved.

We should always keep in mind that Satan loves to promote the idea that Christians -- genuine children of God -- can lose their salvation, or that salvation is not a free gift of God's grace. He hates the idea that there are millions who have been saved by grace, and not of themselves, since he knows his final destination is Hell. Hence he does everything to confuse and deceive people into such preposterous ideas.

So Paul didn't know what he was talking about in Hebrews 6:4-6
or 2 Peter 2:20-22?

He's speaking in these verses about someone who KNEW the joy of the Lord and then walked away. In Hebrews he's exhorting the Jews not to walk away.

Why all this exhortation if we're always going to be sons anyway and cannot become unborn?

Where in the N.T. do we ready about how we will never lose our salvation, no matter what?

I read that we're to behave in a certain way -- or we won't make it to the end.

Jude 1:5
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

The N.T. is full of verses such as the one above.
If we do not believe, we cannot be saved.
It doesn't matter if we don't believe from birth, or stop believing at some point after salvation.

If there is no belief, there is no salvation.
We can only be saved if we are in Christ and He is in us.
I'm sure we all know persons that once were Christian and then left the faith for one reason or another. They become as lost as they were before.

If Paul makes provision for these people, it must surely mean that it is a possibility. God does not force us to remain with Him. He's a God of love and wants only those who love Him back. He will not force us into heaven.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That brings us full circle.
The Bible doesn't say you can lose your salvation.
that is merely man interpreting verses to suit his need.
Russell did that.
Are you a Russell man?

No - I'm a CHRIST man. His Word warns us that we can fall away by our own doing.

Perhaps YOU can reconcile OSAS with the fact that Heb. 10:26-27 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 tell us that a person with Epignosis of Christ can fall away - because nobody else has been able to . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

What does the obedience entail and to what extent?

Obedience is doing the will of God.
Disobedience is rejecting the will of God.

Are you saying obedience saves?

I'm saying what the Bible says: Without obedience, you DON'T have true faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

No - I'm a CHRIST man. His Word warns us that we can fall away by our own doing.

Perhaps YOU can reconcile OSAS with the fact that Heb. 10:26-27 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 tell us that a person with Epignosis of Christ can fall away - because nobody else has been able to . . .

What is epignosis?

 

[BreadOfLife]

What is epignosis?

Epidnosis is the word used in these passages. It implies a full and experiential knowledge of Christ - not just a simple knowledge (gnosis, oida) of the intellect.

Epignosis illustrates a person who has a deep relationship with someone. Some Protestant encyclopedias even go so far as to define it as "True Faith".