entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[justbyfaith]

Personally I see the flesh being just that, our flesh. Our bodies. Which we will be in until they die.

Not to say that we cannot have self-control.

Much love!

Crucified flesh is flesh that is nailed to the Cross. It cannot do anything in the way of sin because it is nailed to the Cross.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sin is like a monster within us that does our sinning for us (see Romans 7:17,20). If we kill that monster, then it can no longer sin within us...which is not to say that the monster does not still exist. However it is dead...so it can no longer sin or force us to sin...it is rendered inept through the crucifixion of the flesh (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8).
We do not have to sin. We are not debtors to the flesh to live according to it (Romans 8:12-13).
Yes...no one is without sin...however the element of sin can be rendered dead, even inept within us so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour.
No. We do not have to sin; and I believe that this is what John is saying by his semi-hyperbolic statement in 1 John 3:9.
See Hebrews 10:10 and Hebrews 10:14. In the first verse, we (referring to the apostles) *are* sanctified; in the second, He has perfected for ever those who are sanctified.
Having the sin nature does not mean that we must sin. Sin is renderd dead within those who are sanctified (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8); so that it no longer has any authority over our behaviour.
No. That is what many people *think* 1 John 1:8 is saying; however if it is saying that, then it is in contradiction to 1 John 3:4-9. And there are no contradictions in the Bible.

I think that's naive, as well as contradictory. You say all sin, but all do not *have* to sin. Then why aren't there anybody who doesn't sin at all?

So the problem is, you're confusing the concept of "sanctification" with "sinless perfection," which was only true of Christ. Having the sin nature meant that all men required the redemption of Christ. Even Christians already saved require purification by Christ to cover our sins.

1 John 1.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

What this says is that even though we've *already been redeemed by the blood of Christ,* we still require purification when we sin. And then John says all do sin.

1 John 1.10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

No, the word "perfection" has nothing to do with "sinless perfection," but rather, refers to a state of *maturity.* We can be mature in righteousness without being perfect, without being sinless.

It is just that as we mature we should be constant in our sanctified Christian life, and regularly learn how to overcome unloving attitudes. We all complain, we all get angry once in awhile. It is due to the sin nature within us that sin leaks out so easily.

Overcoming sin means that we overlay it with Christ's righteousness sufficient to put out the fire, and to quell the damage that could be caused. That's all, in my opinion. You're going to have a very tough haul to prove you're ever sinless--even for a single minute. ;)

We consider ourselves dead to sin not as if we can expunge sin from within us, or rid ourselves of the sin nature entirely. Rather, it means that we have access to the power of Christ to overlay our sin nature with the new nature that Christ has given us, to overwhelm our sin tendencies. We can have peace knowing we have a new nature, and that we can overpower, but not expunge, the sin tendencies.

 

[justbyfaith]

I think that's naive, as well as contradictory. You say all sin, but all do not *have* to sin. Then why aren't there anybody who doesn't sin at all?

Who says there isn't? if there is anyone who doesn't sin, they don't boast about it...that would be a sin!

And also...I say that we all have sin...but that we do not have to sin in the practical sense. Sin dwells in us...it does not have to have authority over us so that we commit sin in the practical sense.

So the problem is, you're confusing the concept of "sanctification" with "sinless perfection,

No. Sanctification does not mean that we are without sin. It means that the element of sin is rendered dead within us, so that we don't have to commit sin in the practical sense. God calls all men everywhere to repent by saying that those who are born of God do not sin and cannot sin.

1 John 1.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

What this says is that even though we've *already been redeemed by the blood of Christ,* we still require purification when we sin.

However, when we are purified, we are purified from *all* unrighteousness.

And then John says all do sin.

1 John 1.10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

What this says is that all have sinned (past tense) not that all do sin (present and future tense).

No, the word "perfection" has nothing to do with "sinless perfection," but rather, refers to a state of *maturity.*

Perfection has to do with the fact that real repentance exists within the individual, so that he doesn't commit the sins that he used to in the practical sense. Of course it doesn't mean that we are without the element of sin dwelling in our mortal flesh.

We can be mature in righteousness without being perfect, without being sinless.

Maturity is in regard to action...the person has truly repented so that he doesn't commit the same sins anymore.

You're going to have a very tough haul to prove you're ever sinless--even for a single minute. ;)

I can make a case for real sinless perfection in the word, even though I don't believe in it. In Romans 6:6, the body of sin is destroyed...and in Colossians 2:11, it is put away from us through the circumcision made without hands, the circumcision of Christ. These two together might declare a kind of eradication...however I believe that Paul is using a literary method, not contradicting 1 John 1:8...he is saying that sin is *as good as* eradicated from the sanctified believer in whom sin has been rendered dead.

We consider ourselves dead to sin not as if we can expunge sin from within us, or rid ourselves of the sin nature entirely.

See immediately above.

Rather, it means that we have access to the power of Christ to overlay our sin nature with the new nature that Christ has given us, to overwhelm our sin tendencies.

We can even put off the old nature like a set of clothing...Ephesians 4:22-24, Colossians 3:9-10...and put on the new, also like a set of clothing. See also Ephesians 2:3....we were by nature children of wrath.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Who says there isn't? if there is anyone who doesn't sin, they don't boast about it...that would be a sin!

And also...I say that we all have sin...but that we do not have to sin in the practical sense. Sin dwells in us...it does not have to have authority over us so that we commit sin in the practical sense.



No. Sanctification does not mean that we are without sin. It means that the element of sin is rendered dead within us, so that we don't have to commit sin in the practical sense. God calls all men everywhere to repent by saying that those who are born of God do not sin and cannot sin.



However, when we are purified, we are purified from *all* unrighteousness.



What this says is that all have sinned (past tense) not that all do sin (present and future tense).



Perfection has to do with the fact that real repentance exists within the individual, so that he doesn't commit the sins that he used to in the practical sense. Of course it doesn't mean that we are without the element of sin dwelling in our mortal flesh.



Maturity is in regard to action...the person has truly repented so that he doesn't commit the same sins anymore.



I can make a case for real sinless perfection in the word, even though I don't believe in it. In Romans 6:6, the body of sin is destroyed...and in Colossians 2:11, it is put away from us through the circumcision made without hands, the circumcision of Christ. These two together might declare a kind of eradication...however I believe that Paul is using a literary method, not contradicting 1 John 1:8...he is saying that sin is *as good as* eradicated from the sanctified believer in whom sin has been rendered dead.



See immediately above.



We can even put off the old nature like a set of clothing...Ephesians 4:22-24, Colossians 3:9-10...and put on the new, also like a set of clothing. See also Ephesians 2:3....we were by nature children of wrath.

We'll have to agree to disagree. The redemption of Christ allows us to participate in his righteousness. It does not render us perfect--it allows us to draw upon his perfect virtues.

And even if we have his divine love, we don't administer it perfectly in all ways every day. In my view, that's impossible, and not what is meant by our participating in his righteousness.

To participate in him we do have to consider ourselves dead to sin. But this is just a means to an end--it does not exterminate sin. It allows us to choose his spiritual life in place of our own carnal life,and to demonstrate his virtues in us. This replaces our carnality with his spirituality, but it does not exterminate the sin nature within us, and thus, the sin tendencies always remain with us.

But you seem pretty convinced that you are right. Good luck with that! ;) If you ever have a perfect day, let me know.

But I would warn you that the more mature you become in Christ, the less confidence you will have in yourself, and the more you will become aware of your shortcomings.

 

[justbyfaith]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I hope that you will consider, that it may be, that this command to repent is mandatory as concerning salvation; and that therefore if you disagree with that command, and therefore do not obey it, you may indeed be out of luck on the day of judgment.

In my view, that's impossible,

See Luke 1:37 (kjv), Matthew 19:26.

Luk 1:37, For with God nothing shall be impossible.

If you ever have a perfect day, let me know.

It may in fact be today or yesterday...but if it were today or yesterday, I would not tell you. For in boasting about a perfect day I would be sinning, thus ruining a day of perfect obedience.

But I would warn you that the more mature you become in Christ, the less confidence you will have in yourself,

I agree. And I would say that the only way we can even live the life that Christ has set before us is to rely on Him and to let Him live in us and through us (Galatians 2:20). If I am the one doing the living, I will sin. But if Christ is living in and through me, He cannot sin: and therefore the practical outcome is that this vessel that I call my human body will not commit sin.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I hope that you will consider, that it may be, that this command to repent is mandatory as concerning salvation; and that therefore if you disagree with that command, and therefore do not obey it, you may indeed be out of luck on the day of judgment.



See Luke 1:37 (kjv), Matthew 19:26.



It may in fact be today...but if it were today, I would not tell you. For in boasting about a perfect day I would be sinning, thus ruining a day of perfect obedience.



I agree. And I would say that the only way we can even live the life that Christ has set before us is to rely on Him and to let Him live in us and through us (Galatians 2:20). If I am the one doing the living, I will sin. But if Christ is living in and through me, He cannot sin: and therefore the practical outcome is that this vessel that I call my human body will not commit sin.

I once sort of felt that way too. But I ran into a wall. You'll certainly find out.

 

[justbyfaith]

I once sort of felt that way too. But I ran into a wall. You'll certainly find out.

Makes me think of this verse:

Psa 18:29, For by thee I have run through a troop; and by my God have I leaped over a wall.

 

[Candidus]

I once sort of felt that way too. But I ran into a wall. You'll certainly find out.

I would tell Justbyfaith to continue to believe God, and you will know it's true.

The reason people deny the possibility of Entire Sanctification in this life, is because they do not believe that God can do it.

 

[justbyfaith]

I would tell Justbyfaith to continue to believe God, and you will know it's true.

The reason people deny the possibility of Entire Sanctification in this life, is because they do not believe that God can do it.

Eph 1:19, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

The same power that raised Jesus from the dead, lives in us!

Eph 3:20, Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I would tell Justbyfaith to continue to believe God, and you will know it's true.

The reason people deny the possibility of Entire Sanctification in this life, is because they do not believe that God can do it.

The only question: can God make a rock so big He can't lift it?

These kinds of questions are absurd. No, God cannot do anything apart from His will! If God has saddled Man with a sin nature for the duration, no, He cannot purify us completely form this sin nature and its effect, sin.

I really have a hard time understanding those who think they are, for even a single minute, spotless and completely free of sin? And then I remember back when I was a young Christian, and full of zeal for the Lord. I thought it virtually "sinful" to think we can't be holy--a lie from the devil.

But in this case, John takes it quite seriously when he said that those who claim to be sinless are making God a liar. We should just take our medicine and go on availing ourselves of Christ's righteousness. We agree that we all have that available to us who are born again.

 

[justbyfaith]

The only question: can God make a rock so big He can't lift it?

He can make a rock as the Father that He can't physically lift as the Son (in His humanity).

These kinds of questions are absurd. No, God cannot do anything apart from His will! If God has saddled Man with a sin nature for the duration, no, He cannot purify us completely form this sin nature and its effect, sin.

God is able to make the crooked things straight (Luke 3:5). And his blood does indeed have the power to cleanse us from all sin (1 John 1:7). Jesus is coming back for a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:27). We have been predestinated to become holy and without blame before Him in love (see Ephesians 1:4). When He assesses our blamelessness, He doesn't necessarily look at us through rose-colored glasses (Hebrews 4:13).

I really have a hard time understanding those who think they are, for even a single minute, spotless and complete free of sin?

See above scriptures referenced.

But in this case, John takes it quite seriously when he said that those who claim to be sinless are making God a liar. We should just take our medicine and go on availing ourselves of Christ's righteousness.

I would suggest reading Job 9:21 (kjv), John 9:41, and Isaiah 42:19. If anyone is cleansed from all sin, they are not aware of it, they are blind to the fact of the matter (and therefore would never claim it). But it is clear from 1 John 1:7,9 that we can indeed be cleansed from all sin/unrighteousness. Also iniquity, Titus 2:14. He is able to keep us from falling and to present us faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, Jude 1:24.

Job 9:20, If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
Job 9:21, Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.
Job 9:22, This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

Jhn 9:41, Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Isa 42:19, Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?

 

[justbyfaith]

1Jo 5:20, And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1Jo 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Eph 5:30, For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32, This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

1Co 6:17, But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Pe 1:22, Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24, Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Do not despair if you do not have entire sanctification now/yet.

It is written,

Rom 4:19, And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20, He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21, And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22, And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23, Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24, But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

If you believe in the promises of God concerning entire sanctification, that He is able to perform them in you; and also do not waver from that hope: then this faith is imputed to you as righteousness even if you have not obtained the substance of those promises.

Consider the promises:

1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24, Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
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1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jo 3:3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Jo 2:6, He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
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Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
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1Jo 1:7, But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:9, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Tit 2:13, Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14, Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 2:15, These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
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1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1Jo 2:27, But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Jo 2:28, And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jhn 15:4, Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5, I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6, If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[justbyfaith]

If you are a sinner, the Lord will not hear your prayer to save you:

Jhn 9:31, Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Therefore if you want the Lord to hear your prayer of salvation, you must repent of being a sinner.

You can only do this if the Lord quickens you and accommodates your statement, "I repent of being a sinner." Then, if you have real repentance, the Lord will hear your prayer of salvation, since you will then no longer be a sinner.

Truly, the doctrine of predestination comes into play.

It may even be that He would have to quicken you before you would be able to repent of being a sinner.

Some scripture to consider:

Luke 6:32-34.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

entire sanctification would be called glorification.

We will not be sin free until we meet Christ with our new bodies.

 

[justbyfaith]

entire sanctification would be called glorification.

We will not be sin free until we meet Christ with our new bodies.

The adoption, or the redemption of the body (Romans 8:23) is possible in this life; for the Galatians had obtained it (Galatians 4:5-7).

Rom 8:23, And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Gal 4:5, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6, And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7, Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; (by adoption, to wit, the redemption of the body) and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

We can be sanctified to the purifying of the flesh (Hebrews 9:13b-14a).

Heb 9:13, For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14, How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

We can be sanctified wholly, so that spirit and soul and body is preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24). I would say also that in this passage, other translations than the kjv do water it down so that the weight of what is being said is lessened to the point of becoming inept.

1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24, Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Eph 5:30, For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32, This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The adoption, or the redemption of the body (Romans 8:23) is possible in this life; for the Galatians had obtained it (Galatians 4:5-7).

Rom 8:23, And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Gal 4:5, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6, And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7, Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; (by adoption, to wit, the redemption of the body) and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

We can be sanctified to the purifying of the flesh (Hebrews 9:13b-14a).

Heb 9:13, For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14, How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

We can be sanctified wholly, so that spirit and soul and body is preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24). I would say also that in this passage, other translations than the kjv do water it down so that the weight of what is being said is lessened to the point of becoming inept.

1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24, Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Adoption and redemption means we have been justified

not that we were made sinless

 

[justbyfaith]

Adoption and redemption means we have been justified

not that we were made sinless

What is the redemption of the body to you?

I believe that previously (before I showed you that it is obtainable in this life) you would have interpreted it to mean a glorified body.

But now that I have showed you that it is obtainable, the only option is to believe that it is, in fact, speaking of entire sanctification.