entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Timtofly]

Ok will you people stop with the calvinist nonsense

I am not calvinist, I do not get my faith from calvinism, in fact I reject fatalism, so if you want to talk to me, talk about, faith, not some man who dies how long ago? Or his followers?

john said they can not live I sin he did not stutter, he did not misspeak, he did not say with these exceptions

he said whoever sins has NEVER known God

never, it means never, it’s not calvinist, it’s not arminian, it’s not catholic, it’s the Bible, NEVER known god means they were never saved period

you want to play religion and bickering because you follow this person or that person I am not interested,

It would help if you gave a verse that says people go their whole life not knowing God.

In sin one cannot know God, but that is hardly a death sentence. You say the exact words that mean what you claim not to believe. You condemn all in sin to never know God. If you do not, then what do you mean?

 

[Nancy]

@Episkopos , @Nancy ,

Just to add my thoughts to what you've written above, to me it comes down to justification also. And that is the correct question, who is justifying? Not in word, but in act?

Do we perform some act that justifies us? I don't believe so.

Did God perform an act that justified us? Most certainly yes.

So then if God performed the act that justified us, then it has nothing to do with our works, either good or bad. Justification is entirely by faith alone, in Christ alone.

Much love!

Hi Marks,
I do see where you are coming from, and agree to a point. Did not Abraham perform "a" work? (not a whole pile of them, just that one with Isaac)
"Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."?
So, it was his faith that saved him, not his righteousness...He believed God and God deemed him righteous because of it.
Anyone can do righteous deeds but, they don't save.
Just my half pence :)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It would help if you gave a verse that says people go their whole life not knowing God.

In sin one cannot know God, but that is hardly a death sentence. You say the exact words that mean what you claim not to believe. You condemn all in sin to never know God. If you do not, then what do you mean?

Lol

I mean really?

Post # 231, don’t you remember? where I asked you to explain that verse and highlighted the part where John said

1 John 3: Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him

and then I Took it even further and showed where he also said he who is born of God can not live in sin. And he who sins is of the devil Remember that?

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

here is me hoping you remember, and maybe God helping you understand

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Marks,
I do see where you are coming from, and agree to a point. Did not Abraham perform "a" work? (not a whole pile of them, just that one with Isaac)
"Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."?
So, it was his faith that saved him, not his righteousness...He believed God and God deemed him righteous because of it.
Anyone can do righteous deeds but, they don't save.
Just my half pence :)

It is possible to be either justified by faith OR works. Paul is championing faith since everyone in those days KNEW that works justified you. Today we have the opposite problem. Nobody seems to understand good works...or works prepared in advance anymore. But notice this...

Ps. 106:30 Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

Now Phinehas acted boldly by killing two transgressors of the law. Holiness laws. And so his act was counted for the same kind of righteousness as Abraham's faith.


It is about pleasing God....not making a shallow religion.

 

[Joseph77]

Nobody seems to understand good works...or works prepared in advance anymore.

Amen.
Instead, the truth is ignored on purpose, wilfully, negligently, and in its place a lie is published/taught/broadcast
as written in Scripture (verified by God's Word First and Foremost) .

 

[FollowHim]

Amen.
Instead, the truth is ignored on purpose, wilfully, negligently, and in its place a lie is published/taught/broadcast
as written in Scripture (verified by God's Word First and Foremost) .

It is easier to say sin is not an issue only faith, because suddenly guilt is deception, fear is unbelief and presumption is King and we are safe.

I fear for those who do not feel their hearts or let Christ in. It is only when we get a proper focus and we are sensitive to the Holy Spirit do things flow.

I spoke at length to one about things of the heart, but it was like talking to a stone. Yet they claimed to know Jesus and to put me right, before sending me to hell. I weep for such as these, because the harshness is so brutal and blind. And their state means nothing gets through.

Jesus brings us peace, blessing hope and security. Until we know this peace in all aspects are we sure we see clearly?

 

[Joseph77]

I spoke at length to one about things of the heart, but it was like talking to a stone. Yet they claimed to know Jesus and to put me right, before sending me to hell. I weep for such as these, because the harshness is so brutal and blind. And their state means nothing gets through.

On this forum, this happens daily, many times. (not weeping for them, but their presence and hostility to the truth, to Jesus)
It seems nothing gets through, and we are restricted by the rules from healing them or even trying to heal them, or from stopping them....

 

[Nancy]

On this forum, this happens daily, many times. (not weeping for them, but their presence and hostility to the truth, to Jesus)
It seems nothing gets through, and we are restricted by the rules from healing them or even trying to heal them, or from stopping them....

True Joseph but, they cannot stop us from praying for them, as well as all of us as a whole on here.

 

[Joseph77]

True Joseph but, they cannot stop us from praying for them, as well as all of us as a whole on here.

Overall on here, no, but as God the Father permits and guides , yes, pray. As written in Scripture, as God Reveals His Will, as God Permits.

 

[Timtofly]

Lol

I mean really?

Post # 231, don’t you remember? where I asked you to explain that verse and highlighted the part where John said

1 John 3: Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him

and then I Took it even further and showed where he also said he who is born of God can not live in sin. And he who sins is of the devil Remember that?

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

here is me hoping you remember, and maybe God helping you understand

I understand clearly.

Some at some point go from not knowing God to knowing God. If that point never happens, they will never know God.

The point you are trying to make is that we can never know God which is a lie. Some do.

So explain how knowing God happens.

No we are not born knowing God, no one teaches that. If they did, that would also be a lie.

PS Knowing God is the Second birth. Not the first birth. After the second birth of course we know God. In flesh though, we still know sin and physical death.

 

[Joseph77]

No we are not born knowing God, no one teaches that.

Some teach that, and some few rare times in history, in line with and not contrary to God's Word, may or might, God Willing, be seen.

But overall, everyone is dead to start with >

Ephesians 2 ESV - By Grace Through Faith - And you were ...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians 2&version=ESV
Ephesians 2 English Standard Version (ESV) By Grace Through Faith.

And you (born again Ekklesia) were dead in the trespasses and sins

in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—


among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the ..."

 

[FollowHim]

Overall on here, no, but as God the Father permits and guides , yes, pray. As written in Scripture, as God Reveals His Will, as God Permits.

I started a tank game, you get blown up very quickly before you get going. It reminds me of forums, and saying I believe X, and boom, blast and how could you ... Only y do, and they are definitely burning.
It takes patience and time to learn so many different perspectives and defences. But after a time things straighten out and what is going on comes clear. The fog of war is quite applicable. What is encouraging is the number of faithful believers are growing. God bless you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I understand clearly.

Some at some point go from not knowing God to knowing God. If that point never happens, they will never know God.

The point you are trying to make is that we can never know God which is a lie. Some do.

So explain how knowing God happens.

No we are not born knowing God, no one teaches that. If they did, that would also be a lie.

PS Knowing God is the Second birth. Not the first birth. After the second birth of course we know God. In flesh though, we still know sin and physical death.

lol

I read this, and I have to just shake my head

I am just trying to show you what John said

He said, If a person is living in sin, They have NEVER KNOWN GOD. period.. He did not say they knew God at one time and no for some reason do not know him. He said THEY NEVER KNEW GOD.

I never said WE can never know God. And why you would insinuate that I said that is beyond my comprehension.

I said what John said, A person who is living in sin has never known God Period

What about us who KNOW GOD (BECAUSE WE HAVE BEN ADOPTED INTO HIS FAMILY)?

John speaks of us to.

WE CAN NOT LIVE IN SIN, BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN BORN OF GOD

its not rocket science. Just take John at his word. and do not try to read into it something which is not there. And you will do fine.

 

[justbyfaith]

It was asked previously that we might name one person other than Jesus who was wholly sanctified in this life.

I submit to you Samuel as a candidate:

1Sa 12:1, And Samuel said unto all Israel, Behold, I have hearkened unto your voice in all that ye said unto me, and have made a king over you.
1Sa 12:2, And now, behold, the king walketh before you: and I am old and grayheaded; and, behold, my sons are with you: and I have walked before you from my childhood unto this day.
1Sa 12:3, Behold, here I am: witness against me before the LORD, and before his anointed: whose ox have I taken? or whose ass have I taken? or whom have I defrauded? whom have I oppressed? or of whose hand have I received any bribe to blind mine eyes therewith? and I will restore it you.
1Sa 12:4, And they said, Thou hast not defrauded us, nor oppressed us, neither hast thou taken ought of any man's hand.
1Sa 12:5, And he said unto them, The LORD is witness against you, and his anointed is witness this day, that ye have not found ought in my hand. And they answered, He is witness.

 

[Candidus]

Yeah your right

Lev 16 must not be in your Bible did they leave it out? There it talks about atonement for sin made on the day of atonement by the shedding of blood

Where does Leviticus say that an offering or a sacrifice buys God off? ""I sinned.... I will just chuck another animal on the altar and pay off God!"

Your right... it's NOT in my Bible!

 

[bbyrd009]

Thanks for the backhand of fellowship!
Perhaps you realize that Glorification follows salvation, sanctification, and death (or resurrection). Putting off mortality and putting on immortality is not sanctification. When you die, there are no second chances.

"Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, render to every man according to what he has done." Rev. 22:10-12.

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" Heb. 12:14.

So, as Believers we generally pursue the here a little there a little, iron sharpens iron deal, and we even misQuote those as being the way or the right thing to do, when it is likely forgetting most of what we have learned, and becoming like a little child, that Yah seeks from us? But we seek Glory, generally speaking i guess.

So i dunno about all those religious-sounding words up there, imo they can all be translated into secular words too, that will make more practical sense, but fwiw i would say first you gotta notice how you are speaking in facts, as if you knew? Iow we--not just you, pretty much everybody, only believers get it worse i guess; seven worse spirits, twice the sons of hell you are, etc--we eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, right, we learn a thing and then pretty much immediately think we know everything about that thing, and so then we can thus no longer learn anything about that thing, until we "forget" what we know and allow for new information to be absorbed, or heard?

So i would say dont be too sure that putting on immortality is not sanctification, go ask a two-three year old what time it is, and see what kind of answer you get back lol. Little kids are put on immortality, at least imo, and death even has to be explained to them? And "putting off mortality" i'm pretty sure cant be Quoted anyway, that is a misunderstanding imo, as you have already observed.

And believers have a little ritual ceremony where they are supposed to die and resurrect, most or many preachers used to even say those exact words, dunno if they do any more, but of course ppl seeking to go up to heaven after they have died to become immortals wouldnt be listening much anyway i guess? There is only One Immortal, No one has ever gone up to heaven
No son of man may die for another's sins; i mean there it is, black and white, not a puzzle right

 

[bbyrd009]

Where does Leviticus say that an offering or a sacrifice buys God off? ""I sinned.... I will just chuck another animal on the altar and pay off God!"

Your right... it's NOT in my Bible!

I desire mercy, not sacrifice so i gotta agree there, too.
Only under the law, almost every (transgression) requires blood right
so see, what a believer is really saying there, even though they would disagree to the words in print or to hearing them, is that they are firmly Under the Law, which pretty much everyone in here is i guess, thats where we come from, thats where you are, too, it can be inferred from the way we construct our sentences even, see, even this sentence, "that's where this, this is that, you are too, facts on facts" which is also why satan is the father of lies but no one can Quote him lying? imo

 

[bbyrd009]

Yeah your right

hmm, why do you call him good? No one is good but Yah right? But yes imo, he is "right" there

I can go on and on but I do not have to. You said no place well I have showed two places

in the book of the law, you sure have :)

bc under the law, almost everything (sin) requires blood right
ergo why No son of man may die for another's sins, and also why no one can Quote "Jesus died for our sins" even, weird as that surely sounds to most of us

so, show us a place NT maybe?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where does Leviticus say that an offering or a sacrifice buys God off? ""I sinned.... I will just chuck another animal on the altar and pay off God!"

Your right... it's NOT in my Bible!

This is a typical response

Cut half the post off. Make it appear he did not provide scripture. then ask where it is said.

Leviticus 16:34 (NAB): 34 This, then, shall be an everlasting ordinance for you: once a year atonement shall be made for all the sins of the Israelites.” Thus was it done, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Or how about here

Exodus 29:36 (NKJV): And you shall offer a bull every day as a sin offering for atonement.

Atonement - to appease, to make amends, to "cover up" to Provide reconciliation, To expiate or purge,

 

[Candidus]

This is a typical response

Cut half the post off. Make it appear he did not provide scripture. then ask where it is said.

Leviticus 16:34 (NAB): 34 This, then, shall be an everlasting ordinance for you: once a year atonement shall be made for all the sins of the Israelites.” Thus was it done, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Or how about here

Exodus 29:36 (NKJV): And you shall offer a bull every day as a sin offering for atonement.

Atonement - to appease, to make amends, to "cover up" to Provide reconciliation, To expiate or purge,

Typical evasion of your argument that the Atonement pays for sins.

Atonement has never been in debate, only Payment has.