entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Eternally Grateful]

You are exactly wrong. Jesus said as I overcame now YOU overcome as I did.

Rev. 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

You think you will not be judged for your actions. Dead wrong. We will each give an account for everything we said, did and thought.

Jesus job was finished ....but ours is still in play. Not everyone ends up with Christ ruling and reigning over creation. Many are rejected and many others are the ones being ruled over.

So you will have to think beyond the binary box you have put God in.

You are exactly wrong Because scripture told us how we overcame. By faith in Christ.

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

I overcame the world the moment I was given the power to become Gods son. By my faith.

John 1: 12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I will just go by what scripture declares..

 

[Joseph77]

Puff the magic dragon , .... ... .....

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is false of course. They who are led by the Spirit are not under the law. We ARE to live up to God's standard....by grace through faith. Not of ourselves, but by the resurrection power of Christ. Otherwise you are still trying to justify yourself with filthy rags.

And before we grow into the full stature of Christ there is training...in the wilderness experience of they who need to be renewed in their way of thinking. Most believers don't make it through that so as to possess the land. Very few will make it through. Most will be led astray, remain carnal, believe a lie....etc....so as to not bear an eternal kind of fruit.

So we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling...knowing the terror of the Lord.

But we can be bold through love to approach God for His grace (power) to walk as Jesus walked.

But this is far too much truth for you to handle already... ;)

Your right, we are not under law. I never said we did. So first think I would ask, is you please try to read what I post, before you make comments. it will help you not to make the mistake of assuming I said something I did not. Or at the least. If you have a question, Ask it

Once again. THE LAW IS OUR TUTOR TO LEAD US TO CHRIST (see Gal 3)

1. he law declares all who have not obeyed every word cursed. (see gal 3)
2. The law declares. If one sins, ie, failed to keep the law. There is only one way to gain forgiveness/remission of sin, The shedding of blood (see Heb 9:22) as which without it there is no remmission.

 

[FollowHim]

By the way, I have hope.. Jesus said it is finished

He did not say I am done, I finished my work, Now you do your work.

Jesus finished His work. Jesus offered Him self as the atoning sacrifice for sin.

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2

10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:10

If all sins past, present and future had been forgiven irrespective of peoples faith or lifestyle Peter could not write this

9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
2 Peter 1:9-10

Equally if all sin has been cleansed from the world, where is judgement and what is its point?
Our sins are forgiven because we have faith in the cross and repented of them.

16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
James 5:15

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

If our sins did not need confession and forgiveness we would not be told through confession we can be purified.
Once one believes sin is all forgiven the whole world over, theology and life goes sideways.

Without love and purification we cannot know what is Gods will or right from wrong because we will continually justify our own sinful behaviour.
Listen to those who claim sin no longer brings a barrier between them and Jesus. There is no desire or belief where they are not where they should be bound to sin and not slaves to righteousness.

It is finished is Jesus's atonement for those who believe. The jews realised atoning sacrifices only applied to jews, so you had to be a jew before the atonement took effect. Christ opened the door to the whole world, anyone could come to Him, repent, have faith and they would be healed.
Praise the Lord.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus finished His work. Jesus offered Him self as the atoning sacrifice for sin.

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2

10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:10

If all sins past, present and future had been forgiven irrespective of peoples faith or lifestyle Peter could not write this

9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
2 Peter 1:9-10

Equally if all sin has been cleansed from the world, where is judgement and what is its point?
Our sins are forgiven because we have faith in the cross and repented of them.

16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
James 5:15

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

If our sins did not need confession and forgiveness we would not be told through confession we can be purified.
Once one believes sin is all forgiven the whole world over, theology and life goes sideways.

Without love and purification we cannot know what is Gods will or right from wrong because we will continually justify our own sinful behaviour.
Listen to those who claim sin no longer brings a barrier between them and Jesus. There is no desire or belief where they are not where they should be bound to sin and not slaves to righteousness.

It is finished is Jesus's atonement for those who believe. The jews realised atoning sacrifices only applied to jews, so you had to be a jew before the atonement took effect. Christ opened the door to the whole world, anyone could come to Him, repent, have faith and they would be healed.
Praise the Lord.

If the shedding of the blood of Christ was required to pay for past sin.

The shedding of his blood would also be required for future sin.

So unless Jesus is going to come and be crucified again for your present and future sin, You better pray he paid for all sin. Else we will be served with walking papers to hell when we leave this lifetime.

 

[Candidus]

If the shedding of the blood of Christ was required to pay for past sin.

It wasn't required to "pay for past sin." My issue with "paying" is not that there is no personal cost or suffering, but it gets convoluted into some crass Commercial Theory. No one was paid anything in the Atonement. Just like saying that in WWII, American combat losses were 291,557 men. Every Veterans Day we say that they "paid the price" for victory over Nazi Germany. Did they write a check or pay Germany's fine in court? What if only 291,556 Americans "paid the price"? Would we have lost the War? This rationale is certainly absurd, but strangely, it is not absurd to apply such logic to the Atonement of Christ. The Atonement of Christ, and atonement as displayed in the Old Testament, is not a picture of Natives throwing a Virgin into a volcano to quell the wrath of their god, or of paying a Judge a fine.

The demagogic argument and scare tactics of our imminent danger of hell if Jesus didn't pay for all sins, has no basis in Scripture or example.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It wasn't required to "pay for past sin." My issue with "paying" is not that there is no personal cost or suffering, but it gets convoluted into some crass Commercial Theory. No one was paid anything in the Atonement. Just like saying that in WWII, American combat losses were 291,557 men. Every Veterans Day we say that they "paid the price" for victory over Nazi Germany. Did they write a check or pay Germany's fine in court? What if only 291,556 Americans "paid the price"? Would we have lost the War? This rationale is certainly absurd, but strangely, it is not absurd to apply such logic to the Atonement of Christ. The Atonement of Christ, and atonement as displayed in the Old Testament, is not a picture of Natives throwing a Virgin into a volcano to quell the wrath of their god, or of paying a Judge a fine.

The demagogic argument and scare tactics of our imminent danger of hell if Jesus didn't pay for all sins, has no basis in Scripture or example.

Then how do you expect to have your sins redeemed?

if the penalty of sin is death how does that get paid?

 

[Candidus]

Then how do you expect to have your sins redeemed?

Biblically!

if the penalty of sin is death how does that get paid?

But in Scripture, there is no "death row" that someone can bribe the Judge to release you. I don't know if sin can be redeemed; it's not and entity that can be redeemed.

You assume that someone gets "paid"...

Yet you cannot find where anyone gets paid in Atonement, Who gets paid, or that any payment is ever required as part of Atonement.

If it's not in the Bible, why would anyone ever worry about a payment?

 

[Candidus]

Why would we build what we see in Scripture around something it never says?

The danger is that through familiarity and oft repeated references to payment as the means of Atonement, we are fed presuppositions that demand that we read everything in Scripture to agree and support that assumption. Few Scriptures get as much attention in the pulpit as this theory of atonement. Most have heard it so often that they believe that the Bible says what it teaches. It would be revolutionary if people believed the Bible with as much faith as they place in this theory.

 

[Timtofly]

No. I asked to name one person. I don't need to consult the Bible for the answer. I just need for someone to name just one person right now who has achieved entire sanctification. Achieving it "by faith" is not an acceptable answer for me.

Once that person is named, they would stop being perfect. It is like going the speed of light, it is physically impossible.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Biblically!

Then By Blood

As Hebrews says, Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.

But in Scripture, there is no "death row" that someone can bribe the Judge to release you. I don't know if sin can be redeemed; it's not and entity that can be redeemed.

You assume that someone gets "paid"...

Yet you cannot find where anyone gets paid in Atonement, Who gets paid, or that any payment is ever required as part of Atonement.

If it's not in the Bible, why would anyone ever worry about a payment?

The penalty of sin is death

I do not assume anything.

You either receive the gift of God based on the cross. Or you reject it in unbelief.

Those are your only two options

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why would we build what we see in Scripture around something it never says?

The danger is that through familiarity and oft repeated references to payment as the means of Atonement, we are fed presuppositions that demand that we read everything in Scripture to agree and support that assumption. Few Scriptures get as much attention in the pulpit as this theory of atonement. Most have heard it so often that they believe that the Bible says what it teaches. It would be revolutionary if people believed the Bible with as much faith as they place in this theory.

thats just it, Its not a theory

Its all over scripture. The sacrifice of the lamb for the sin of the people

The theory is the thought you can get to heaven APART from atonement

 

[Candidus]

thats just it, Its not a theory

Its all over scripture. The sacrifice of the lamb for the sin of the people

The theory is the thought you can get to heaven APART from atonement

It is merely just another human THEORY. Obviously you can read it into the Bible, but you cannot draw it out of the Bible.

For Theology to be true, it must be found in Scripture. But there has never been any payment associated with Atonement anywhere in the Bible; nor is there any statement to base that on.

There is no argument that there is no salvation without Atonement... but that requires a REAL Atonement that the Bible teaches. Sacrifice is not payment. "Oh I sinned again... I'll just chuck another goat on an altar and torture it to death to pay off God!"

 

[Candidus]

You either receive the gift of God based on the cross. Or you reject it in unbelief.

Those are your only two options

You mean the Gnostic view (Muslim view) that Jesus did not die on the Cross, but someone else was substituted? Or that I can believe in the Cross that saved EVERYBODY and no one goes to hell but the devil and his demons? It's in the Bible! Jesus Paid It ALL! Or that God "paid" for me, but not for you, and I have special Gnosis from God that I am Elect, and that since I "see" [gnosko] that my spirit is eternal and cannot sin, and believe that is what the Bible says... I have always been saved, and you will not since you don't believe it.

It's "all over the Bible"... every Theory is!

Like you say, it's my way or the highway! There are only two options! My way, or No way!

 

[Timtofly]

It is merely just another human THEORY. Obviously you can read it into the Bible, but you cannot draw it out of the Bible.

For Theology to be true, it must be found in Scripture. But there has never been any payment associated with Atonement anywhere in the Bible; nor is there any statement to base that on.

There is no argument that there is no salvation without Atonement... but that requires a REAL Atonement that the Bible teaches. Sacrifice is not payment. "Oh I sinned again... I'll just chuck another goat on an altar and torture it to death to pay off God!"

Me thinks most theology is only in the Bible with a few words, and then all sorts of false man's wisdom gets added to the point the Bible is not relevant, but a paper anchor that soon dissappears in troubled waters.

 

[Candidus]

Me thinks most theology is only in the Bible with a few words, and then all sorts of false man's wisdom gets added to the point the Bible is not relevant, but a paper anchor that soon dissappears in troubled waters.

I think that much of which passes for "Theology" is mere human Philosophy and a philosophical system pressed on the mind to contort the Bible into agreement with that Philosophy.

True Theology is based on the Bible and what is said, not what is never said.

An example:

The Bible never says that anyone is Predestined to heaven or to Hell... yet so-called "Theology" teaches it.

The Bible never says that the Atonement of Christ is Limited, yet so-called "Theology" teaches it.

The Bible never says that a Sacrifice is a commercial payment to God, yet people force that meaning on Atonement. That's not real "Theology."

I don't think Theology is the Bible in a "few words," but adds "many words" that are not in the Bible. The problem arises when we make Theology equal, or in most cases, superior to the Bible. When the Philosopher reads "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..." and they are intellectually committed to the consistency of their philosophy, they twist and turn this to any mean that God only loves the elect, and no one else. They do not care that this makes the Gospel where Jesus died for the natural meaning of "World" and "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 Jn. 2:2, that God, "is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9. ""For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Tim. 2:3-6."

We are commanded to preach the Gospel to all nations, which would be a horrible taunting and not a blessing to the majority if only those already predetermined to be saved are elected. The so-called "Gospel", the "Good News" is "Bad News" for the vast majority.

My point is that, Philosophical Commitment, in the name of "Theology," and certainly not the Bible would lead someone to force such denials of Scripture for the sake of rescuing Human Philosophy.

 

[Timtofly]

I think that much of which passes for "Theology" is mere human Philosophy and a philosophical system pressed on the mind to contort the Bible into agreement with that Philosophy.

True Theology is based on the Bible and what is said, not what is never said.

An example:

The Bible never says that anyone is Predestined to heaven or to Hell... yet so-called "Theology" teaches it.

The Bible never says that the Atonement of Christ is Limited, yet so-called "Theology" teaches it.

The Bible never says that a Sacrifice is a commercial payment to God, yet people force that meaning on Atonement. That's not real "Theology."

Jesus death on the cross was the end of the contract to the law with Israel. The fact that a lamb slain from the foundation of the world, is the blood contract on all man kind because of Adam's disobedience. They both were paid in full at the same time and place.

At the cross, sin stopped being just an action. It was in the mind, because Greek philosophy opened up what thought processes are. Love and hatred start in the thoughts and is sin in our thoughts. Not that thoughts were not important in the OT, but tangible sacrifices were for tangible actions.

Now we need to not just be baptized with water, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the mind and hearts. Neither baptism saves us. We are sealed since conception by the Holy Spirit. The day of redemption is when we turn around, stop following ourselves, but follow the Holy Spirit.

The only choice is keep on the same path and the seal will be broken in eternal death.

Or turn around and head for eternal life. Free will is the abilty to change directions at any moment. Salvation does not put you in a train (osas) unless you are willing to submit and let go of walking. You can still get off the train.

A hardened heart (olal), just lets those walking the wrong direction keep walking, and they do not have to think about it any more. ie no choice in the matter, but choice is still lurking.

 

[Joseph77]

"Ultimately, we may not understand all that this topic entails, but we know we are on the right track if we can honestly say, "I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart." (Psalm 40:8) This is an attitude that pleases God. Why?"

Jesus death on the cross was the end of the contract to the law with Israel.

 

[Joseph77]

As regarding the TORAH, The Law, The Apostle Paul was ENTIRELY SANCTIFIED.

And he still knew that God is the One Final Judge.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is merely just another human THEORY. Obviously you can read it into the Bible, but you cannot draw it out of the Bible.

For Theology to be true, it must be found in Scripture. But there has never been any payment associated with Atonement anywhere in the Bible; nor is there any statement to base that on.

There is no argument that there is no salvation without Atonement... but that requires a REAL Atonement that the Bible teaches. Sacrifice is not payment. "Oh I sinned again... I'll just chuck another goat on an altar and torture it to death to pay off God!"

Yeah your right

Lev 16 must not be in your Bible did they leave it out? There it talks about atonement for sin made on the day of atonement by the shedding of blood

And if you was questioning the atonement was made for sin

Leviticus 16:34 (NAB): 34 This, then, shall be an everlasting ordinance for you: once a year atonement shall be made for all the sins of the Israelites.” Thus was it done, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Or how about here

Exodus 29:36 (NKJV): And you shall offer a bull every day as a sin offering for atonement.

I can go on and on but I do not have to. You said no place well I have showed two places

good day