entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[FollowHim]

You are trying to say something, but I cannot tell what it is. Are you saying you are a bankrupt tax collector sinning and devoid of victory or freedom and that is where Jesus wants you to stay?

Maybe the silence is deafening, but this is a clear problem. If every time someone shares they must be the tax collector, even when they know and follow Jesus, there must be something very wrong with the theology being followed. It sounds like ground hog day. :)

 

[Nancy]

Utter nonsense, and meaningless in this discussion.

You've never spoken to, or heard from "most people", so this is overgeneralization, a logical fallacy.

Within the context of this conversation . . . let me put it this way. Who here demonatrates what you claim?

Seriously!

This just smears those who might disagree with your POV.

I must agree here with you Marks,
We can see the "world" looking for these loopholes to get around their sinning, and still "going to heaven", but I have yet to meet any Christian who thinks this. What true born again Christian would even want to sin much less justify it? Granted, I do not watch television so, I never listen to the swoopy haired (what's with that anyhow??) televangelists. Perhaps they are the ones who are selling this stuff?

 

[Episkopos]

It is my conclusion. There is a big difference between being born into communion and being a sinner and putting ones life on the altar and giving it all up. In a sense John was not saved, he was always with the Lord.

There is a link with how Paul describes why he was saved.

13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
1 Tim 1:13

Our guilt is based on our choice, though tempered by our knowledge and understanding.
It puts rebellion against the Lord after one has come to know Him on a different scale as Hebrews warns us.

29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:29

John the Baptist was in a unique position, a sign post of the Kingdom, yet not a converted sinner to saint. He did not have a choice in one sense, he was always in the Kingdom. ????? Now of course one could say Jesus meant something else, but it is this that has stuck out to me as obvious, something that Jesus wanted to point out. God bless you

This is a good observation. Of course as with anything with God...there are many facets and depths of understanding possible. But Jesus did say he that is the least in the kingdom...

“I tell you the truth, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least person in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he is!

So then John the baptist was not in the kingdom....just pointing the way...or a sign post as you said.

It is difficult for we moderns to understand what Jesus means by the kingdom of heaven. Who has walked in Zion with Jesus...in real time? So we mainly see the kingdom of God as a future event and miss the high calling of a walk in resurrection life right now.

 

[Episkopos]

I must agree here with you Marks,
We can see the "world" looking for these loopholes to get around their sinning, and still "going to heaven", but I have yet to meet any Christian who thinks this. What true born again Christian would even want to sin much less justify it? Granted, I do not watch television so, I never listen to the swoopy haired (what's with that anyhow??) televangelists. Perhaps they are the ones who are selling this stuff?

I don't think very many want to sin and still be a Christian. But the issue is with justification. Many do hold that justification and sin are separate issues...as in...I am still justified in my sins. As opposed to being justified away from sins.

So it is a question of WHO is doing the justifying. Ourselves? Well modern church practice is all about a self-justification...a claiming to be eternally saved through one's belief in Jesus and His sacrifice as being for the one who claims it.

Name it and claim it.

And then there is the truth that we may be justified at one time but not in another. The faithful are they who walk by faith and faithfulness...and leave it to God to do the justifying.

So then many people want to be justified now...without any kind of holy standard....which is seen as separate from salvation.

If we look at being saved FROM Egypt...we see that all they who perished in the wilderness were saved. They just didn't make the cut.

So we should focus with fear on working out our own salvation....to get through the wilderness test of our faith and enter into the promises of God.

Many are called but few are chosen. And being saved is but a first step in a race that many will fail. Many will fail the grace of God. So we should run to win! :)

 

[Joseph77]

For and in all clarity, truth, revealed by the Father in heaven to little children,

our conclusions are not worth dung.

It is my conclusion.

Now of course one could say Jesus meant something else, but it is this that has stuck out to me as obvious, something that Jesus wanted to point out.

 

[Nancy]

@Episkopos
"I don't think very many want to sin and still be a Christian. But the issue is with justification. Many do hold that justification and sin are separate issues...as in...I am still justified in my sins. As opposed to being justified away from sins." <---- This is where I see in Romans 3 and 6 where Paul clarifies this. "God forbid"!!!

"So it is a question of WHO is doing the justifying. Ourselves?" <--- We have gotten pretty good at this, ha!
"Well modern church practice is all about a self-justification...a claiming to be eternally saved through one's belief in Jesus and His sacrifice as being for the one who claims it." <---- Ha, if only it were that easy...the narrow road is very difficult to find much less to walk and stay on.
"Name it and claim it."<---- I have been here and it never for one second sat well with me. And that was in the very beginning of my race!

"And then there is the truth that we may be justified at one time but not in another. The faithful are they who walk by faith and faithfulness...and leave it to God to do the justifying." <---- We do what we know to do rightly and He will judge. So, the faithful can certainly walk in and out of levels of faith if they can be justified over let's say, doing right in Gods eyes yet, down the road they can certainty do something that God will NOT justify...I know there are many examples in His Word.

"So then many people want to be justified now...without any kind of holy standard....which is seen as separate from salvation." <--- Yeah, the stunted...ones who have such a hard time growing or even thinking they are supposed to be growing and maturing in Him every single day. Stagnant, complacent...

"If we look at being saved FROM Egypt...we see that all they who perished in the wilderness were saved. They just didn't make the cut." <--- Yeah, 40 long hard years!!! Outer darkness for them?? :O


"So we should focus with fear on working out our own salvation....to get through the wilderness test of our faith and enter into the promises of God." <--- Amen, and keep our heads up and keep on keeping on that very narrow road! Thank God for His grace, because even though the Gospel itself is quite simple, the Christ Life is another story.

"Many are called but few are chosen. And being saved is but a first step in a race that many will fail. Many will fail the grace of God.<--- When you say many will fail the Grace of God, do you mean many trample His Grace by abusing it?
"So we should run to win! :) Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus." <---Amen...we must FINISH the race set before us, even if we have to do it with one leg and crutches, and if we fall... crawl until we pick ourselves up again...there is no "easy believism"...we were told how hard this walk would be but we were also told that it is nothing compared to what He has prepared for those who do actually make it. And, without faith in His strength to get us through to the end is a must!
Amen brother!

 

[FollowHim]

For and in all clarity, truth, revealed by the Father in heaven to little children,

our conclusions are not worth dung.

I would actually now disagree with you. Some time ago I would not quite know how to answer but now I see.

Jesus in the parable of the seed and the sower was talking about something unusual. The seed is the word of God.
It is sown in the hearts of people. And this seed grows into a plant that creates more seed that can be sown.

So what is the seed that grows and where does it come from? The seed is the word of God in our hearts and the seeds that are produced are the seeds that come from our mouths. We are His living testimony to the world, Gods word in action, Jesus with in us.

So our conclusions are not dung, but Gods very exposition of love and truth to the world.
When Gods word comes into your heart, His truths mould your thinking then things appear which might otherwise not be obvious.
It is obvious John is not like other men, born with the Holy Spirit in Him from the beginning.
Jesus declares the least in the Kingdom is greater than he.

So my words are stating no more than scripture already reveals. I am sure there are many reasons why John is less than the least in the Kingdom, I have come out with one such observation.

The church is full of similar observations, some sound, like the trinity, original sin, security in Christ which are not obvious but derived. Now each one should be understood and weighed, to find the blessing in each, while also remembering it is a derived observation. Jesus and the Holy Spirit will make them plain to all of us.

Most of these issues are secondary to our salvation and security in Christ, so whether you accept them or not, does not matter, it is up to you.
Jesus said two such things himself, John the Baptist is Elijah, it is better to be single than married.

So we must be careful not to dismiss our brothers and sisters over things that encourage and educate us all. God bless you

 

[Joseph77]

I would actually now disagree with you. Some time ago I would not quite know how to answer but now I see.

Perhaps "conclusions" are different from your view and mine.

I see "conclusions" as trying in the mind, in the flesh, to "conclude" something, which is a fail from the start.

VS The new mind, new spirit, abiding in Christ Jesus, in which God Himself grants His Wisdom, His Truth, His experience and experiential knowledge as written in and through all the New Testament (and similar in the Torah/ Tanakh/ Old Testament, Prophets and Psalms)..

When God tells us something, we agree with Him. He is Right , True, and Holy, always.

To as if 'conclude' , as if based on human/flesh mechanism of thought, instead of just believing the Father,
that is what is not of God nor from Him.

 

[Joseph77]

So my words are stating no more than scripture already reveals.

COOL! This is as Scripture says, what the Father reveals to little children - always true.

 

[Nancy]

So my words are stating no more than scripture already reveals. I am sure there are many reasons why John is less than the least in the Kingdom, I have come out with one such observation.

Very enjoyable post FH,
I do wonder at the above reference to John being less than the least in the Kingdom. Could you expound on the "one such observation" you have concerning this? I sure do not get it, lol.

 

[Candidus]

Good day sir

the verse I post said that atonement was for sin

And you said I did not show it

I can not help you, when I as much as showed you a 100 dollar bill, and you state I have yet to show you a 100 dollar bill

I will pray for you

The statement you were trying to answer, was not the question you thought you answered. Period.

Please pray for me as I will for you! Show me that something was "paid" in Scriptural Atonement. Those words.... PAID!

Atonement "for" sin is not "payment" for sin, or Atonement "paid" sin. You are confusing "cost" or "value" with some commercial transaction. We both accept that their was a "cost", but you want to adding a facet that that Scripture ardently avoids (for a reason).

Stop showing me fake $100 bills and show me real one's!

 

[Joseph77]

Stop showing me fake $100 bills and show me real one's!

No one can do that until they 'get's real ones'.

 

[FollowHim]

Very enjoyable post FH,
I do wonder at the above reference to John being less than the least in the Kingdom. Could you expound on the "one such observation" you have concerning this? I sure do not get it, lol.

John was born in a relationship and fellowship with the Lord. He never knew loneliness and separation from God, being hurt and isolated, lashing out in anger and wanting revenge. He did not build his own kingdom and make sense of the world venturing forward as a lone person.
And then faced with God and His message, repent, bow the knee, put everything on the altar and accept Jesus as ones Lord and saviour.

There is something profound about being born lost and then being found, than always dwelling in God.
John may have been different if he had been born lost, we will never know.

I personally do not know how to measure John or his ministry, I am just suggesting there is something different that through trials and tribulation things are made stronger. God bless you.

 

[Joseph77]

There is something profound about being born lost and then being found, than always dwelling in God.
John may have been different if he had been born lost, we will never know.

Most children born lost, remain lost. Great multitudes - more than half the population, maybe more than two thirds, as written in Revelation.

"profound"..... ?

The Gospel "CHRIST CRUCIFIED" , ETERNAL LIFE to those who believe!! The stench of death to those destined for destruction.

 

[FollowHim]

The statement you were trying to answer, was not the question you thought you answered. Period.

Please pray for me as I will for you! Show me that something was "paid" in Scriptural Atonement. Those words.... PAID!

Atonement "for" sin is not "payment" for sin, or Atonement "paid" sin. You are confusing "cost" or "value" with some commercial transaction. We both accept that their was a "cost", but you want to adding a facet that that Scripture ardently avoids (for a reason).

Stop showing me fake $100 bills and show me real one's!

I agree the idea of a number debt which is matched against a payment does not work.
God is implying death has to happen, a complete change, one life, the old gone and the new beginning. But such a change needs trust, needs something deeper than anything we know in the world. Jesus had to take on the world and forgive it, be passive, let us go if we accept Him. But the price is our lives.

All fake versions keep what you have and Jesus adds to it. Jesus takes the heart and makes it His own from scratch. It is why we must drink to the death of the old and raise to life of the new.

 

[Candidus]

No one can do that until they 'get's real ones'.

Substitutes for a real answer is just another red herring; please tell me that your foundation is more than wishful thinking!

Once again, the statements are:

No passage in Scripture says that Jesus "paid for sins."

Some have said here that "He "paid our fine". Where in Scripture does it equate the Atonement to paying fines?

All I see are answers that assume something to exist. Do we just base everything we read on an assumption, and reconcile our beliefs to justify that assumption? Is that a sound hermeneutic?

I have also stated that the Theory appeared in the 1500's, and it was invented to prop up a Philosophical System. A payment made cannot be unpaid. If anyone goes to hell, then God does not really love the whole world, but only a few. People are not saved by grace through faith, but by payment. Either you were paid for 2000 years ago, or you were not. Belief and Faith have no bearing on whether you were paid for. Even Calvin said that God deludes people who are not Elect to believe that they are Christians on the way to heaven, just to be used as His tools to achieve His will. He will then make them crash and burn in Hell "for His glory." No one knows if they are saved, or if they are hopelessly on their way to Hell; deluded and tricked by God, only to be kicked to the curb for God's glory!

Preaching, and praying do nothing in the way of reaching anyone for the Lord. God gives the illusion of conversion when He wills, or can just take them to heaven apart from any faith or belief since He loved and "paid for them."

If you believe in Penal Substitution, you do not do it because you read it in Scripture, but because were taught to believe it.
If you believe that "Whosoever Will" means all people, and that God offers a genuine offer of salvation to the lost (those that their "sins were paid for" were never lost since they were saved from all eternity), and you teach payment of sins, you entangle yourself in hopeless contradiction.

 

[Candidus]

The Gospel "CHRIST CRUCIFIED" , ETERNAL LIFE to those who believe!! The stench of death to those destined for destruction.

But you do not believe that! You believe that a "payment for sins" is what gives ETERNAL LIFE! If anyone's sins were "paid for", they were paid for 2000 years ago. Belief and faith have nothing to do with receiving ETERNAL LIFE! If their sins are "paid for", 2000 years ago, they had ETERNAL LIFE before they were ever born!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

One who lives in sin is not saved, and does not see God.

God sees them and still seals them, up unto the point they die.

It is the Holy Spirit who calls. We cannot question the Holy Spirit. That leads to questioning who God is and the sin of no return.

The biggest problem with Calvinism is it tells God how to do God’s job. That is the bottom line and irrefutable truth.

Yes, all those verses are true and not open for interpretation, nor should be used for man made up doctrine.

Ok will you people stop with the calvinist nonsense

I am not calvinist, I do not get my faith from calvinism, in fact I reject fatalism, so if you want to talk to me, talk about, faith, not some man who dies how long ago? Or his followers?

john said they can not live I sin he did not stutter, he did not misspeak, he did not say with these exceptions

he said whoever sins has NEVER known God

never, it means never, it’s not calvinist, it’s not arminian, it’s not catholic, it’s the Bible, NEVER known god means they were never saved period

you want to play religion and bickering because you follow this person or that person I am not interested,

 

[marks]

@Episkopos , @Nancy ,

Just to add my thoughts to what you've written above, to me it comes down to justification also. And that is the correct question, who is justifying? Not in word, but in act?

Do we perform some act that justifies us? I don't believe so.

Did God perform an act that justified us? Most certainly yes.

So then if God performed the act that justified us, then it has nothing to do with our works, either good or bad. Justification is entirely by faith alone, in Christ alone.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
Luke 7:28

14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth,
15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.
Luke 1:14-15

I do not know if anyone teaches this it is an obvious conclusion to draw from the above verses.

John, other than Lazarus (Mary and Martha's) brother were the two deaths mentioned before the Atonement. They would be the last of the OT saints. Saying that John was the greatest would be true. But he was not in the next group. So he is not the least by far. What Jesus was saying that in the church (body of Christ) the least one would be greater than John was. It by no means John stopped being the greatest. John set the bar for what it was to be a minimum Christian. The best example of an OT saint was the starting point of being a Christian.