Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[PinSeeker]

The important thing to understand relative to the foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is that God foreknew those who love God (Rom 8:28).

Exactly right. But again, John did not say, "God loves (us) because we first loved Him," but the very opposite. After having said in verse 7, "love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God" ~ and here again is this knowing in the same context as Paul's in Romans 8:29, and this knowing God depends on, is a result of, our having been born of God ~ he (John) says in verse 19. "We love because He first loved us."

It's really impossible to turn that around and make it backwards, but some do. It's just astounding.

Verses 29 and 39 then proceed to explain what are the "all things" in verse 28 that work together for good for those who love God.

So, "all things" are not really all things at all, but only the things God does for those in Christ? Goodness gracious. No, the "all things" of Romans 8:28 are all things ~ every thing ~ that happens in the course of our lives... I think we've all said at least once at one time or another that... everything happens for a reason... or something to that effect... Wow.

Grace and peace to you, JBO.

 

[JLB]

I agree, only Born again Christians keep the commandments, because the righteousness of Christ is imputed onto them. So God doesn't hold their sin against them as it has all been fully paid for.

Brother, Christians must confess their sin in order for them to be forgiven, and "for God to not hold their sins against them".


Only those who practice righteousness are righteous.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


Those who claim to know Him (have eternal life) but don't keep His commandments are liars, and the truth is not in them.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

 

[PinSeeker]

IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED....
Do you believe that God created everything IN THE BEGINNING?

Yes. :)

FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD
Do you believe that God loved ALL HIS CREATION,

Yes. :)

If you believe God loved only small portions of HIS WORLD.... then you do not believe the NT. The NT states that GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.....

Right. I know exactly where you're going, and I'll speak to it (it will not be the first time...) when you get there. But to your statement here, I do believe ~ and God's Word is very clear about this ~ that God's love is and will be made manifest in different way regarding one group, His elect, those He has given to Christ, and the other, those who are not among His elect, those He does not give to Christ.

THAT WHOSOEVER......
WHOEVER.......

Whoever means Whoever.

It doesn't mean SOME PERSONS
It doesn't mean SOME NATIONALITIES

It simply means WHOEVER.

Knew you were going here... :) For sure, yes, but... :) ...John, in John 3:16 ~ and Paul, in Romans 10:17... "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" ~ are both referring directly to Joel 2:32, where Joel clearly says that this 'whoever' is "all those whom the LORD calls"...

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."​

So yes, everyone, whoever, whosoever, but there is a dependency placed on that everyone, whoever, whosoever, and that is... those whom the LORD calls.

But that won't fit with your theology, will it?

Not according to your theology, no. :) But maybe your theology will change...

So it becomes necessary to CHANGE THE MEANING of words.

Not for me... :)

Jesus said He would draw ALL MEN to Himself.

Hmmm... Well, I'm assuming you're talking about what He says in John 12:32, right?, He said, "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." Yes, but this same Jesus said in John 6:37, "No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." Did Jesus contradict Himself? I mean, I think we would both answer no to that; there are no contradictions in Scripture. So there must be some difference in what is actually being said in those particular instances (and any others were there seems to be any sort of contradiction)... and there is... :)

The 'all men' or 'all people' of John 12:32, in context, means all kinds of people, people of every tongue tribe and nation, so, both Jews and Gentiles, the same context as John 10:16 ("And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd"), 11:52("and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad"), and the setting of this very passage, which is clear in 12:20-23 ~ "Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks. So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, 'Sir, we wish to see Jesus.' Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. And Jesus answered them..." So the Greeks were very much present when Jesus said this, which clearly has an effect on how Jesus answers them.

Did Jesus mean what He said?

Absolutely. See above.

He said ALL MEN Not some men, not some nationalities, ALL MEN.

All whom the Father has given the Son. See above.

Do you believe the NT writers wrote what they meant and meant what they wrote?

Of course. See above.

Study up some more.

Backatcha.

Adam KNEW his wife.
That all men will KNOW you are my disciples.

Does know mean the same in both instances? NO.

No, "those whom God foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is very similar to "Adam knew his wife" rather than, different from, "all men will KNOW you are my disciples," exactly as I have said.

It could mean either intimately or knowledge-wise

Right, this is what I have said several times, so at least you agree that this knowing can be a very different thing depending on the context.

God foreknows who will be saved.

Yes.

God predestines them to be in the image of Jesus.

Yes.

We might actually agree on this although you would be the first to admit it.

Right; it seems, at least, you are so, so close... but stopping just short. And you all ~ you, JBO, Eternally Grateful, and others ~ are very obviously very intelligent, well-spoken people, every bit as firm in your faith in the Lord as I...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Lets just take this example. foreknowledge, to know before hand, If we take any other meaning, then we most likely do not understand it.

Hmmm, so this is quite obviously a presupposition... Which can then turn into what we often call a self-fulfilling prophecy... So often in these kinds of comments I hear strains of the great Simon and Garfunkel... "still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." (The Boxer, 1968)...

We can even use it in our daily lives, or when plainly talking. Example. to persevere means to (taken from a dictionary)
continue in a course of action even in the face of difficulty or with little or no prospect of success.
"his family persevered with his treatment"

Ie, its alot of hard work to persevere through this time of struggle or tribulation

or in another dictionary - to persist in a state, enterprise, or undertaking in spite of counterinfluences, opposition, or discouragement.

Again, massively hard work... we have in reformed theology (Calvinism) as part of their tulip, that the P stands for persevere until the end.

Now THIS... This is great. There are many other passages I could cite, but I'll just limit it to:

• "In Him you also, when..." ~ not because, but when ~ "...you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed..." ~ again, not because, but when, which is still the case because of the 'and' just preceding 'believed' ~ "...in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it" (Ephesians 1:).
• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).

So yes, we persevere, but because of the power of God, not our own, not in and of ourselves at all. And as James exhorts us, we can... well... here it is:

"Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing" (James 1:2-4).​

So again, the credit and the glory belongs to God, and not to any man, for his perseverance. Because it is the power of God in us, it cannot be broken. God's purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2).

So you see, For a theology group, who is so afraid of thinking even faith is a work of man, and can not be part of the born again process. to say we will persevere (struggle. work mightily, in spite of everything against us) until the end, Is taking a word totally out of context. or at the least, is totally contradicting their own theology.

Pish. :) See above. :)

And if you're indeed saying that faith is a work of man, again, no, the faith we are given by God manifests itself in the form of good works; both Paul and James are crystal clear on this:

• "...by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).
• "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? ...faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (James 2:14).

Grace and peace to you, Spiritual Israelite. And all.

 

[JBO]

You mean the Jesus Who Himself is God? Hmmm.... But, yes, I'm sure He knew who they all were... :)

No, they were not known, in the very same context as Paul in Romans 8:29. The fact is you're.... well, not "changing," really, but mischaracterizing the context of both Jesus in Matthew 25 and Paul in Romans 8. Whether what you're doing is purposeful or inadvertent is questionable... both, I guess, if placed in the proper context. See what I did there...?

Grace and peace to you.

The meaning of the word "foreknowledge" and related words don't need any adjustment depending on context. It is fundamentally an absolute character trait of God. It is His omniscience applied to the future.

 

[PinSeeker]

The meaning of the word "foreknowledge" and related words don't need any adjustment depending on context. It is fundamentally an absolute character trait of God. It is His omniscience applied to the future.

Absolutely. However, God's omniscience is not what's in view in Paul's context in Romans 8:29, which I have been very clear in saying, and is very clear in what Paul is saying. God's omniscience applies to all people and all things, but Paul, in saying "Those whom He foreknew" is unmistakably speaking of a group of mankind smaller in number than the whole of mankind. I mean, we can keep going back and forth on this if you like...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[JBO]

Exactly right. But again, John did not say, "God loves (us) because we first loved Him," but the very opposite. After having said in verse 7, "love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God" ~ and here again is this knowing in the same context as Paul's in Romans 8:29, and this knowing God depends on, is a result of, our having been born of God ~ he (John) says in verse 19. "We love because He first loved us."

It's really impossible to turn that around and make it backwards, but some do. It's just astounding.

Yes it is really just astounding; that is, it is astounding that you make such an egregious error in understanding God's foreknowledge.

So, "all things" are not really all things at all, but only the things God does for those in Christ? Goodness gracious. No, the "all things" of Romans 8:28 are all things ~ every thing ~ that happens in the course of our lives... I think we've all said at least once at one time or another that... everything happens for a reason... or something to that effect... Wow.

Do you really believe that all things ~ every thing ~ that happens in the course of your live is good? That is amazing. You are the first person I have come across who thinks that.

 

[JBO]

Absolutely. However, God's omniscience is not what's in view in Paul's context in Romans 8:29, which I have been very clear in saying, and is very clear in what Paul is saying. God's omniscience applies to all people and all things, but Paul, in saying "Those whom He foreknew" is unmistakably speaking of a group of mankind smaller in number than the whole of mankind. I mean, we can keep going back and forth on this if you like...

I really don't understand what it is that you are trying to prove. God foreknew that Judas would betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver. That doesn't apply to all people; it applies only to Judas.

So yes, those He foreknew in Romans 8:29 were those who, it said in Romans 8:28, love God. And as I said earlier, the good spoken of in verse 28 are then discussed in verses 29 and 30. They are predestined; the predestined are called, the called are justified, and the justified are glorified.

 

[PinSeeker]

I really don't understand what it is that you are trying to prove.

Okay, understood. I don't think it's very difficult to understand, but okay. I do understand that it's quite hard sometimes to... well, I'll stop there.

But it's about God's foreknowledge (in Paul's context of Romans 8)... and more specifically whether His electing and saving of folks is based on... depends on... His sovereignty over all His creation or our free will.

And yes, understanding... as much as we can, anyway... God's character, how great His glory is, and how holy He is... a number of things, really. And as it pertains to us, how worthy He is of our worship and adoration, and, in the words of Revelation 5:13, blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever.

God foreknew that Judas would betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver. That doesn't apply to all people; it applies only to Judas.

Sure. God foreknew everything Judas was going to do. Absolutely. But, in the same sense as what Paul says in Romans 8, I don't think God foreknew Judas...

Think of it this way. I'm speaking on strictly a human level, just because that's easy to understand, for the most part, because we are human, right? So... I think you'll agree that it is very possible for someone to know all about Jesus ~ to comprehend the Bible and what can be understood about who He was or claimed to be... One does not have to be a rocket scientist to understand what the Bible says about who Jesus was and what He did. So again... to know all about Jesus. But it is a very, very different thing to actually know Jesus. I could expound on that, but I feel very confident you know what I mean. Very succinctly, we Christians have a very close, even intimate (although of course not sexual) relationship with Him. We know Him. And He knows us... the Father has given us to Him, and He will lose not one, but raise us all up on the last day... Wow, what a thought...

So yes, those He foreknew in Romans 8:29 were those who, it said in Romans 8:28, love God.

Right; agreed.

And as I said earlier, the good spoken of in verse 28 are then discussed in verses 29 and 30.

This is a bit of a separate issue, but... Okay:

On one hand, in verse 28, the "all things" Paul speaks of are all the events that take place in our lives, all the things we experience in this life, even things like trials, which can be all kinds of things varying in intensity and difficulty.

On the other hand, in verse 29, Paul says that God's predestining, calling, justifying, and glorifying of these people referred to in verse 28 ~ those who love Him and are called according to His purpose ~ are all respective of and following from each other, and are together respective of following from His having foreknown that select group of people.

The "all things" of verse 28 is/are not the same as the foreknowing, predestining, calling, justifying, and glorifying (in verse 29) of the people referred to in verse 28. Rather, the foreknowing, predestining, calling, justifying, and glorifying of verse 29 are what God does for the people referred to in verse 28 despite the all things of verse 28... despite how it may often seem to them (us) because of their (our) lack of faith... Not to say that they (we) have no faith at all, but because their (our) faith ~ in this life ~ is not perfect.

They are predestined; the predestined are called, the called are justified, and the justified are glorified.

Absolutely! And this "golden chain of salvation" cannot and will not be broken. Because of God and His power! As the great hymn "Holy! Holy! Holy!" goes, God is "perfect in power, in love and purity," right? I know you believe this. I know it. As Paul goes on to say...

"If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things?"​

Interjection... :) Now, this "all things" is the same as what James says in James 1:17, that "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change." Included are a great number of things... including... faith. :) Okay, continuing with Paul's grand statement...​

"Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the One who died ~ more than that, who was raised ~ who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? ... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us ... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."​

You see that, right? Neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation. See? These are the all things, Paul is talking about in verse 28.

This is the thing (as Joe Biden says... LOL!). No, uh, sorry... :) No, THIS is how UTTERLY AMAZING God's grace is! Ahhh... Okay... I'm literally on the verge of tears... of joy, of course.

Man. Okay, uh... Yeah. Grace and peace to you, my brother. Grace and peace to you.

 

[JBO]

Okay, understood. I don't think it's very difficult to understand, but okay. I do understand that it's quite hard sometimes to... well, I'll stop there.

But it's about God's foreknowledge (in Paul's context of Romans 8)... and more specifically whether His electing and saving of folks is based on... depends on... His sovereignty over all His creation or our free will.

God's sovereignty will never be exercised against anyone wanting to believe in God. If you are one who contends that God's sovereignty demands determinism, I can understand your aversion to the simple and straightforward definition and meaning of foreknow being "to know beforehand", that is God's omniscience applied to the future -- Period.

And yes, understanding... as much as we can, anyway... God's character, how great His glory is, and how holy He is... a number of things, really. And as it pertains to us, how worthy He is of our worship and adoration, and, in the words of Revelation 5:13, blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever.


Sure.


Right; agreed.


I mean, this is a bit of a separate issue, but... Okay:

On one hand, in verse 28, the "all things" Paul speaks of are all the events that take place in our lives, all the things we experience in this life, even things like trials, which can be all kinds of things varying in intensity and difficulty.

On the other hand, in verse 29, Paul says that God's predestining, calling, justifying, and glorifying of these people referred to in verse 28 ~ those who love Him and are called according to His purpose ~ are all respective of and following from each other, and are together respective of following from His having foreknown that select group of people.

The "all things" of verse 28 is/are not the same as the foreknowing, predestining, calling, justifying, and glorifying (in verse 29) of the people referred to in verse 28. Rather, the foreknowing, predestining, calling, justifying, and glorifying of verse 29 are what God does for the people referred to in verse 28 despite the all things of verse 28... despite how it may often seem to them (us) because of their (our) lack of faith... Not to say that they (we) have no faith at all, but because their (our) faith ~ in this life ~ is not perfect.


Absolutely! And this "golden chain of salvation" cannot and will not be broken. Because of God and His power! As the great hymn "Holy! Holy! Holy!" goes, God is "perfect in power, in love and purity," right? I know you believe this. I know it. As Paul goes on to say...

"If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things?"​

Interjection... :) Now, this "all things" is the same as what James says in James 1:17, that "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change." Included are a great number of things... including... faith. :) Okay, continuing with Paul's grand statement...​

"Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the One who died ~ more than that, who was raised ~ who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? ... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us ... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."​

You see that, right? Neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation. See? These are the all things, Paul is talking about in verse 28.

This is the thing (as Joe Biden says... LOL!). No, uh, sorry... :) No, THIS is how UTTERLY AMAZING God's grace is! Ahhh... Okay... I'm literally on the verge of tears... of joy, of course.

Man. Okay, uh... Yeah. Grace and peace to you, my brother. Grace and peace to you.

None of that changes anything that I said.

 

[PinSeeker]

God's sovereignty will never be exercised against anyone wanting to believe in God.

Of course not. But I'm saying, JBO, that if anyone wants to believe in God, then really, they already do ~ they already have this God-given faith ~ and they just may not fully realize it yet. And further, I would say that the very reason they want to believe in God is because the Spirit is at work in their heart... and in Paul's words in Philippians 1:6 God has already begun His good work in them and will ~ will ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ.

If you are one who contends that God's sovereignty demands determinism...

I really don't understand what that even means, JBO. Except that it sounds very Hyper-Calvinistic, maybe, and that God somehow dictates our will, which is... not the case. I'll put it this way, that God's absolute sovereignty over all His creation and man's free will are both Biblical realities and truths, and they are not at odds (there are no contradictions in the Bible; we agree on that I think). But we also know that being one of God's elect does not depend on our will or strength but on God's mercy. So, somehow, we have to take all that in and then try ~ try, at least ~ to make some kind of sense out of that... Because we know there is a perfect sense to be made out of that, because it's God's Word. RIght?

, I can understand your aversion to the simple and straightforward definition and meaning of foreknow being "to know beforehand", that is God's omniscience applied to the future -- Period.

Okay, well, see above (post 1029), particularly the part about the two senses in which it is possible to know. :) To know about someone (to know what they will do, in the case of God)... or to really know that person, which is to have a deep, even intimate relationship with them.

None of that changes anything that I said.

Fair enough.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[JBO]

Of course not. But I'm saying, JBO, that if anyone wants to believe in God, then really, they already do ~ they already have this God-given faith

Pure Calvinist Bovine Scat.

 

[One 2 question]

However, to satisfy God's own purposes, God established a plan that will only save a few people in this age. They are vessels of honor. In the final age, Christ will save the rest of mankind. They are vessels of dishonor. But in the end, all mankind will be saved.

We have a fantastic hope hey FWD? That we, who the Lamb is in the process of redeeming from EVERY tongue, tribe, people and nation, will reign with Him for 1,000 years til we restore and renew this planet.

Then to have the added hope of being reunited with ALL of our fellow beings when they are redeemed also and reconciled with their Creators. What an occasion that will be!

 

[Christian Soldier]

Brother, Christians must confess their sin in order for them to be forgiven, and "for God to not hold their sins against them".


Only those who practice righteousness are righteous.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


Those who claim to know Him (have eternal life) but don't keep His commandments are liars, and the truth is not in them.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Every born again Christian, confesses the sins, we know about. But there are many sins we commit that we're, not even aware of . God will never hold any sin against His Children, because His Son has already paid for all of them in advance.

Gods Children don't sin at all, because our sin is not seen as sin by God.
1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

As you can see, those who are born again do not sin. So we need to know the difference between the sin of a born again Christian and the sin of an unbeliever. The unbeliever will pay for his sin, by eternal torment in hell, while the born again Christian's sins have already been paid for in full so we don't face any penalty.

Jesus only gave one commandment, He said "believe in Me and you shall be saved". If we place our trust in His finished work on the cross, His perfect righteousness is imputed onto us as a gift, because He knows that no man can ever keep any of the commandments. That's why He had to come and keep the commandments on our behalf, salvation is not dependent on the man keeping the commandments. If that were the case, nobody would be saved.

So every born again Christian will sin everyday or the rest of His life. We have been promised a perfect sinless, glorified body in the life to come. But we will continue to wrestle against temptation for the rest of our days in this life. And we don't win every battle against temptation, we are overcome every day to some degree.

 

[FaithWillDo]

We have a fantastic hope hey FWD? That we, who the Lamb is in the process of redeeming from EVERY tongue, tribe, people and nation, will reign with Him for 1,000 years til we restore and renew this planet.

Then to have the added hope of being reunited with ALL of our fellow beings when they are redeemed also and reconciled with their Creators. What an occasion that will be!

Dear One2question,
Yes, I have thought about the "last day" quite often. What a day that will be!

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

The Feast of Ingathering is a shadow of the time when Christ brings in the full and complete harvest of mankind in the final age. The Feast of Weeks is a shadow of the early harvest of first-firsts that is occurring now in this age.

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

Christ is the Savior and He is the one who does the saving. Mankind can contribute nothing to it because they are too spiritually marred and carnally minded.

Christ begins His work within a person when He comes to them and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Early Rain of the Spirit, the only "choice" the person can make is to call Jesus "Lord":

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Without the free gift of the Early Rain of the Spirit, they CANNOT call Jesus "Lord". The apostate church's belief in mankind's "free will" ability is a lie from Satan. Mankind has no such ability.

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Faith and understanding are gifts from Christ. When a new believer accepts the lie that they are the one who is responsible for their acceptance of Christ, they are stealing from Christ who alone was the cause of their confession of faith.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

It is from the spiritual work of Christ that all mankind will eventually bow down to Christ and call Him "Lord".

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

On the day that the last person of mankind is saved in the final age, it will then be testified to be true that all who have died in Adam have been made alive in Christ.

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Thanks for your post.

Joe

 

[PinSeeker]

Pure Calvinist...

Well, yeah, fair enough... Acknowledged... :)

Bovine Scat.

But...

Grace and peace to you, JBO.

 

[GodsGrace]

The important thing to understand relative to the foreknowledge in Romans 6:29 is that God foreknew those who love God (Rom 8:28). Verses 29 and 39 then proceed to explain what are the "all things" in verse 28 that work together for good for those who love God.

Indeed.
God always calls according to purpose....
He calls persons according to the PURPOSE He has for them...
He NEVER chooses who will or will not be saved.
If this were true, the entire gospel would not only be unnecessary,
but would make no sense at all.

Romans 8.28
All things work for the good for those that love God.
Jacob's brothers meant it for evil,
but God meant it for good. Genesis 50:19-22
Those who are in Christ should be comforted by the fact that
God will, somehow, provide for their well-being.

Romans 8:29
Those whom God FOREKNEW, He predestined.
But for what?
To be conformed to the image of His Son....
the first-born of many which would follow.

Romans 8:30
Those He foreknew
He predestined to be conformed in the image of Jesus
And those He called for a purpose,
and those He glorified.

Only the dead can be glorified...so in Romans 8:30 Paul is describing what happened to the
saints in the OT. He's describing how God called them for a PURPOSE, and that they were glorified....
past tense.

 

[JBO]

Only the dead can be glorified...so in Romans 8:30 Paul is describing what happened to the
saints in the OT. He's describing how God called them for a PURPOSE, and that they were glorified....
past tense.

So he only predestined the OT saints. That is a bit of an odd interpretation. The action of God foreknowing and predestining is indeed past tense. But those who love God (v. 28) is not limited to past tense. It doesn't say those who loved God. Thus I understand that those who love God are those of the past, present and future.

 

[JLB]

God will never hold any sin against His Children, because His Son has already paid for all of them in advance.

Here is the truth -

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Here is the truth -

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Here is a bigger truth. If we use your interpretation you better confess ever sin. Otherwise your still lost.