Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[Earburner]

Well, Jesus and Apostles warned that false teachers would be right in our midst!

Becareful that you are not one of them!

 

[Giuliano]

Yes, I do understand the simplicity of taking God's words literally, but you now should be relating to it by the Holy Spirit, learning His spiritual understanding of His words as an adult.
In example, let's use one of the scriptures you posted:
Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
"Little children" do not think or worry about their needs for food, clothes or shelter. They explicitly trust their parent(s) to provide that for them.
So likewise, for what we need as Christians for forgiveness, salvation, spiritual food, spiritual clothing, we trust (have faith) that God will provide all of what we need, to be ready to meet Him in that Day!

It also means not thinking we know it all.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It wasn't Greece nor any part of Greece that tore the city apart and destroyed the temple, killing most of the population and dispersing the remainder across the planet. Jesus said the threat, well after Antiochus, the abomination of desolation, was still to come.

We were talking of Daniel 8, not Daniel 9.

 

[Earburner]

Not in this physical body. But in your resurrected, you'll be able to if you wanted. I think there's another hidden reference to the resurrection in that passage when Jesus mentions lilies. I think it would be white ones -- Easter lilies. They're dressed in all white -- and at the top, they have yellow. White robes with gold crowns? The saints may be clothed like lilies more than we suppose. And get this: They grow in dirt, and so do we!

Jesus no longer grows. Neither is He any longer of dirt (the elements), but has New Life by the Spirit of God alone, needing no oxygenated air or blood, to give life for His Immortality.

 

[YeshuaFan1]

Becareful that you are not one of them!

What false teaching was I presenting?

 

[john t]

The second death (annihilation) is one possibility as an outcome or destiny of men.

We are mortals...not immortals.

Paul the Apostle disagrees with your home-spun theology:

2 Corinthians 15:
12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.


20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
​

A strong refutation of heresy is what happens when we fail to first consult Scripture.

​

 

[YeshuaFan1]

Paul the Apostle disagrees with your home-spun theology:

2 Corinthians 15:
12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.


20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
​

A strong refutation of heresy is what happens when we fail to first consult Scripture.

​

All shall be raised up, per Jesus, some to eternal rewards and blessings, others to eternal shame and judgement!

 

[john t]

The second death (annihilation) is one possibility as an outcome or destiny of men.

We are mortals...not immortals.

Revelation 20:
9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Only live things can be tormented

This is another strong refutation from the Bible against the heresy of annihilationism. It simply is not true.

 

[Earburner]

Her was a type, a picture, of the final Antichrist yet to come, who will seek to finish off what Hilter started, total destruction of Jewish people!

You asked: "What false teaching was I presenting?"
> Your reply in the above: "the final Antichrist yet to come,..."

 

[Earburner]

Revelation 20:
9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Only live things can be tormented

This is another strong refutation from the Bible against the heresy of annihilationism. It simply is not true.

Armageddon and Gog and Magog are the same thing!
Don't you yet know that at this present time, we are now "the camp of the saints".
A " camp" is a temporary dwelling place.
This earth is not our home.

We look for a New heaven and earth, which btw looks like nothing of this heaven and earth now.

 

[Earburner]

^ Here, I will show you the simultaneous two events of "when" (keyword) Jesus returns in flaming fire.
1. The Saints are resurrected, and
2. The unsaved wicked are destroyed, by his all consuming, flaming fire.

2 Thes. 1[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[john t]

^ Here, I will show you the simultaneous two events of "when" (keyword) Jesus returns in flaming fire.
1. The Saints are resurrected, and
2. The unsaved wicked are destroyed, by his all consuming, flaming fire.

2 Thes. 1[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Thank you, but in sincerity, I ask the application of that to the heresy of annihilation because it says nothing about the souls that are dead at the second coming, unless you read much into that.

 

[john t]

Armageddon and Gog and Magog are the same thing!
Don't you yet know that at this present time, we are now "the camp of the saints".
A " camp" is a temporary dwelling place.
This earth is not our home.

We look for a New heaven and earth, which btw looks like nothing of this heaven and earth now.

HUH???
What is the relevance between what I posted, and what you posted?

I never mentioned "Armageddon and Gog and Magog " so why do you bring it up?

How do you pretend to know what a "new heaven and new Earth" will look like? I ask because your post assumes that you do know that, and yours is an extremely presumptuous statement.

 

[Waiting on him]

Revelation 20:
9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Only live things can be tormented

This is another strong refutation from the Bible against the heresy of annihilationism. It simply is not true.

So does Jesus sustain their life while they are tormented? What I read seems to imply that there is no life without Christ?

 

[Giuliano]

Jesus no longer grows. Neither is He any longer of dirt (the elements), but has New Life by the Spirit of God alone, needing no oxygenated air or blood, to give life for His Immortality.

Of course not. We are the ones growing now in the dirt. But did you not know that growing in the dirt serves a purpose? The corruptible can be changed into the incorruptible. Every saint that succeeds is being changed by God -- dead matter is being changed into life.

 

[Earburner]

HUH???
What is the relevance between what I posted, and what you posted?

1. I never mentioned "Armageddon and Gog and Magog " so why do you bring it up?

2. How do you pretend to know what a "new heaven and new Earth" will look like?
3. I ask because your post assumes that you do know that, and yours is an extremely presumptuous statement.

1. Because it is in Rev. 20, that you referenced.
See Revelation 20:7-9.
2. Jesus is from above, aka from Heaven, being himself heavenly. We who are of Adam, are from beneath, aka from earth, being ourselves earthy.
However, for all who are born again from above, by His Holy Spirit, we are New creatures, a whole New creation, spiritually "translated into the kingdom of His dear Son", aka being that of "heavenly Jerusalem, the mother of us all [who are saved]".
John 3[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3. Where does God desire to dwell?
A. In a temple building on earth.
B. On a brand new planet.
C. Within us.
E. In Heaven.
F. In rooms.
G. In the atmospheric clouds.

> What is the New "earth", that God maketh, wherein He desires to dwell within forever?

To be "in Jesus, and He in us", is to be in the KoG/KoH.
> What is the New "heaven" that God maketh, wherein He has always dwelled in forever?

 

[Earburner]

^ Clue: Learn to think in the Spirit, outside the "religious" box!

 

[bbyrd009]

This is true:
Lev. 17[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

And this is true:
Gen 4[10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood *crieth unto me from the ground.

Honestly, God the Father's thoughts and ways, being far higher than ours, who "is a spirit", and is not "from beneath" of "flesh and blood", surely does have different thoughts and understanding about blood, and definitely *relates to blood differently than we do.

you are Quoting Legal Precedent though, OT, but claim to be not under the law any more; so a fundamental misunderstanding is perpetrated upon us, and we are sold Red Stew
in english Jesus did not die as a sacrifice to appease our Angry God, No son of man may die for another's sins...so ya, i agree that Yah surely relates to blood differently than us, who are bloodthirsty little sh*ts lol
who do you think instituted the law of sin and death?

Who told you that you were naked?
there is the sum of Yah's Condemnation of us
any other examples will be OT, in the literal establishment of the Law
expressed in slaughters that we know did not happen literally
no literal walls of Jericho, etc
and sacrifices, yes, which we are plainly told later Yah did not desire, and had "wearied" of, right
sacrifices were surely what the ppl needed at the time?

 

[Earburner]

you are Quoting Legal Precedent though, OT, but claim to be not under the law any more; so a fundamental misunderstanding is perpetrated upon us, and we are sold Red Stew
in english Jesus did not die as a sacrifice to appease our Angry God, No son of man may die for another's sins...so ya, i agree that Yah surely relates to blood differently than us, who are bloodthirsty little sh*ts lol
who do you think instituted the law of sin and death?

Who told you that you were naked?
there is the sum of Yah's Condemnation of us
any other examples will be OT, in the literal establishment of the Law
expressed in slaughters that we know did not happen literally
no literal walls of Jericho, etc
and sacrifices, yes, which we are plainly told later Yah did not desire, and had "wearied" of, right
sacrifices were surely what the ppl needed at the time?

What does this mean to you:
John 1[29] The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Apparently, God the Father needed a mediator, just as much as we do!

 

[bbyrd009]

I doubt many will agree with my take on this. People may think I'm a little crazy. I think my Mother worried about my sanity at times.

Luke 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What? If you seek the kingdom of God, you will be able to make yourself taller if you want? Yes. You will be able to change your body. You can even make your body disappear if you want. Don't worry -- you can make it appear again if you want.

Ever notice that Jesus could appear and disappear in a way after the resurrection that he didn't before? He appeared in a locked room. He did have the ability to make himself look different before the resurrection, but that was by projecting a mental picture which others saw instead of seeing him. Thus he could walk through a group of people without them recognizing him.

I think a major block to being able to do this is being anxious about having a body. We worry so much about our bodies. We even want to preserve them by filling them with embalming fluid as if it matters. I don't want to be embalmed. I want to return to dust and ashes. Why resist it?

It was not meant to be this way. We should be able to change our shape and size at will. Our bodies should do what we want automatically; but there's something in them that rebels. I believe too that we will be able to experience what it's like to be a pigeon or a calf -- a blade of grass or a tree. If we could get over the anxiety of losing our human body, we would be free to experience the rest of creation. I was about five or six when I had my first experience with being "something else." I was at home with my Mother, my sisters were at school and my Father at work. I heard a flock of Canada geese going over, went to the window to try to see them. Suddenly, I was with them. I was up in the air. I was a goose flying with them. Then I "came back to earth" and started to cry. My Mother asked why, what was wrong? I said I wanted to go with them. She said I couldn't because I was a human and couldn't fly. I think I worried my Mother sometimes. It was so much fun though to be flying with the geese.

I read where Jesus said the rocks would cry out in praise if men didn't. That made me want to be a rock for a while so I could sing when Jesus was around.

:)
i would perhaps question your sanity, except all the scientists in the world put together can only find like 5% of what they know must exist

and actually i bet the phenom is fairly common anyway