Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[VictoryinJesus]

the second after death, imo anyway

buried with Him. Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Along with 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Get I might be conflating it, not even sure what ‘conflating’ is ...but concerning what returns to dust and what returns to God, struggle at the after going in a casket for He said having passed from death unto Life. is it not important for our spirit to return to Him and Him return to us BEFORE going in a casket? For that which perishes and returns to dust to ‘diminish’ ‘decrease’ ‘buried’ before going in a casket?

 

[bbyrd009]

"The spirit" , meaning "the breath of life", meaning the oxygenated air that we and all animals breathe, whose breath is in their nostrils

ok we established swing/miss there already right
i mean keep saying it if you like, but it isnt true ok

 

[bbyrd009]

buried with Him. Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Along with 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Get I might be conflating it, not even sure what ‘conflating’ is ...but concerning what returns to dust and what returns to God, struggle at the after going in a casket for He said having passed from death unto Life. is it not important for our spirit to return to Him and Him return to us BEFORE going in a casket? For that which perishes and returns to dust to ‘diminish’ ‘decrease’ ‘buried’ before going in a casket?

my current guess is that yes, if you identify with spirit, and no if you identify with life/soul, which note Eb wants to say we arent sure what "soul" is but that is crap, same root as "life," and Adam became a living soul, no puzzles there imo

and conflating just means like "equating" more or less, although im sure google could do better there. Xtians "conflate" eternal life with becoming an immortal after they have died, despite the many, many vv that say otherwise, and etc

 

[Earburner]

srsly? In italics

all go to the same place. Your bargain with the grave will be annulled. You and your sons will be here with me
even to an anaerobic bacteria? Dont think so wadr

ha but who is this "we" you speak of, and have included yourself in?

and fwiw there is no "faith in Jesus Christ" such as you speak of anyway, or i mean show me one, BIBLE VERSES ABOUT FAITH IN JESUS (which has ezackly zero vv about "faith in Jesus!")
as Jesus Himself even tells us, our faith is supposed to be in Yah, and no offense but you are deceived i guess, i mean unless you can Quote vv about "faith in Jesus," i dunno. Faith of Jesus, sure

Ok, so I had a mispeak.
For all the hair splitting "word christians" out there, "belief in Jesus" is the biblical term.
But, I would have you read also the following for having "faith in Jesus":
Acts 3[16] And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Acts 20[21] Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom. 3[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 

[bbyrd009]

You have provided a strong biblical argument against what I have said about the word "spirit", and also for the word "soul".
Therefore, for every unsaved person, who has not received the Eternal Holy Spirit of God, should we say that they have both a
"spirit" and a "soul"?
The word "soul" is used 58 times in the NT
And the word "spirit" is used at least equal to it, from what I can gather.

So, my question is, which is which, if the the two words are, or are not meaning the same thing?
Or is it simply this, due to the lack of a better understanding of Physics, Chemistry, Biology etc., about the wonder of God's Creation, man was severely lacking (Moses included) about the natural realms of the world we live in, and the intricate, microscopic details of our very own being.

sheesh
ok and dont get me wrong, Faith in Jesus is a great start imo ok, the heir is under servants and no better than a slave while he is a child and all, however

 

[bbyrd009]

Ok, so I had a mispeak.
For all the hair splitting "word christians" out there, "belief in Jesus" is the biblical term.
But, I would have you read also the following for having "faith in Jesus":
Acts 3[16] And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Acts 20[21] Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom. 3[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

ya, i could dig into those and surely reveal the helpful scribing, but imo why not just listen to the Horse's Mouth there? Jesus Himself tells us to have faith in Yah alone right. We go out into the desert to find Apollos, so we can become immortals after we die, right? Only we call him "Jesus," and seek to "have faith in Jesus," bc no one is going to give up ten percent of their hard-earned for the truth, which is what Jesus Himself is telling us, Yah alone shall you serve

so, Apollos waters, and most "believers" (who actually have no "beliefs" to speak of whatsoever, all Absolute Truths, as evidenced by their speech, satans dialectic rather than naive, and other evidences) never get any further than "come quickly, Lord" which is absolutely not going ever to happen, see Him as He is

the kingdom does not come by observation, right

 

[Giuliano]

it’s always been interesting to me that no one recognizes Him upon His resurrection.
How do we know His physical body was ascended?

I doubt many will agree with my take on this. People may think I'm a little crazy. I think my Mother worried about my sanity at times.

Luke 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What? If you seek the kingdom of God, you will be able to make yourself taller if you want? Yes. You will be able to change your body. You can even make your body disappear if you want. Don't worry -- you can make it appear again if you want.

Ever notice that Jesus could appear and disappear in a way after the resurrection that he didn't before? He appeared in a locked room. He did have the ability to make himself look different before the resurrection, but that was by projecting a mental picture which others saw instead of seeing him. Thus he could walk through a group of people without them recognizing him.

I think a major block to being able to do this is being anxious about having a body. We worry so much about our bodies. We even want to preserve them by filling them with embalming fluid as if it matters. I don't want to be embalmed. I want to return to dust and ashes. Why resist it?

It was not meant to be this way. We should be able to change our shape and size at will. Our bodies should do what we want automatically; but there's something in them that rebels. I believe too that we will be able to experience what it's like to be a pigeon or a calf -- a blade of grass or a tree. If we could get over the anxiety of losing our human body, we would be free to experience the rest of creation. I was about five or six when I had my first experience with being "something else." I was at home with my Mother, my sisters were at school and my Father at work. I heard a flock of Canada geese going over, went to the window to try to see them. Suddenly, I was with them. I was up in the air. I was a goose flying with them. Then I "came back to earth" and started to cry. My Mother asked why, what was wrong? I said I wanted to go with them. She said I couldn't because I was a human and couldn't fly. I think I worried my Mother sometimes. It was so much fun though to be flying with the geese.

I read where Jesus said the rocks would cry out in praise if men didn't. That made me want to be a rock for a while so I could sing when Jesus was around.

 

[YeshuaFan1]

In dealing with the Jews, the subject of Daniel, Antiochus Epiphanes IV was the greatest threat.

Her was a type, a picture, of the final Antichrist yet to come, who will seek to finish off what Hilter started, total destruction of Jewish people!

 

[YeshuaFan1]

It is getting more an more bizarre all the time. Not only about Christ about about the Gospel.

Well, Jesus and Apostles warned that false teachers would be right in our midst!

 

[YeshuaFan1]

Unbelievable the things some people come up with regarding Christ.

Yes, just see word of faith and us being "gods", as we are just as much as a "god" to them as Jesus was!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Luke 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?

Consider Ephesians 4:12-14 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Ephesians 2:21-22 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Consider the adding of stature is But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

 

[Earburner]

ok we established swing/miss there already right
i mean keep saying it if you like, but it isnt true ok

This is true:
Lev. 17[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

And this is true:
Gen 4[10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood *crieth unto me from the ground.

Honestly, God the Father's thoughts and ways, being far higher than ours, who "is a spirit", and is not "from beneath" of "flesh and blood", surely does have different thoughts and understanding about blood, and definitely *relates to blood differently than we do.

 

[Giuliano]

Consider Ephesians 4:12-14 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Ephesians 2:21-22 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Consider the adding of stature is But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

It's an astonishing promise, isn't it?

 

[Earburner]

I doubt many will agree with my take on this. People may think I'm a little crazy. I think my Mother worried about my sanity at times.

Luke 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What? If you seek the kingdom of God, you will be able to make yourself taller if you want? Yes. You will be able to change your body. You can even make your body disappear if you want. Don't worry -- you can make it appear again if you want.

Ever notice that Jesus could appear and disappear in a way after the resurrection that he didn't before? He appeared in a locked room. He did have the ability to make himself look different before the resurrection, but that was by projecting a mental picture which others saw instead of seeing him. Thus he could walk through a group of people without them recognizing him.

I think a major block to being able to do this is being anxious about having a body. We worry so much about our bodies. We even want to preserve them by filling them with embalming fluid as if it matters. I don't want to be embalmed. I want to return to dust and ashes. Why resist it?

It was not meant to be this way. We should be able to change our shape and size at will. Our bodies should do what we want automatically; but there's something in them that rebels. I believe too that we will be able to experience what it's like to be a pigeon or a calf -- a blade of grass or a tree. If we could get over the anxiety of losing our human body, we would be free to experience the rest of creation. I was about five or six when I had my first experience with being "something else." I was at home with my Mother, my sisters were at school and my Father at work. I heard a flock of Canada geese going over, went to the window to try to see them. Suddenly, I was with them. I was up in the air. I was a goose flying with them. Then I "came back to earth" and started to cry. My Mother asked why, what was wrong? I said I wanted to go with them. She said I couldn't because I was a human and couldn't fly. I think I worried my Mother sometimes. It was so much fun though to be flying with the geese.

I read where Jesus said the rocks would cry out in praise if men didn't. That made me want to be a rock for a while so I could sing when Jesus was around.

Ok, enough with Fantasy Land. I think that you got captured by your vivid imagination as a child, and by your continual entertaining of them, you lost sight of reality, such as gravity.
Your mother had every right to worry, and probably, so should we.

Albeit, thank you for you honesty. When we WERE children once, we all can relate.
Maybe this will help:
1 Cor. 13[11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
In His Love,
Earburner

 

[Earburner]

Her was a type, a picture, of the final Antichrist yet to come, who will seek to finish off what Hilter started, total destruction of Jewish people!

Honestly, you are incorrect in the first half, but correct in the latter half of what you say. But I might add that Christians are going to be among them!

 

[Giuliano]

Ok, enough with Fantasy Land. I think that you got captured by your vivid imagination as a child, and by your continual entertaining of them, you lost sight of reality, such as gravity.
Your mother had every right to worry, and probably, so should we.

Albeit, thank you for you honesty. When we WERE children once, we all can relate.
Maybe this will help:
1 Cor. 13[11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
In His Love,
Earburner

It is also written:

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

You might be surprised at some of the things I did when I was a kid.

I know very well what reality is. If an angel speaks to me, I know other people can't hear it. If I see something spiritual, I also know other people around won't be seeing it. I know the difference between spiritual and physical.

About that gravity bit, do you recall Jesus walking on water or going up into a cloud? But did you understand what I wrote: "I" was up in the air. My physical body was still standing at the window.

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Have you also not read that we are seated in heavenly places? I've looked down at the earth more than once. Gravity wasn't a problem.

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Go ahead, say Paul was being childish and didn't understand gravity. . . .

 

[marks]

That was a vision of the future from John's perspective. If I was given the same vision now,I would put it in the same words. They're dead now, but they've been raised for that purpose for which they stand then before Gods throne.

Isn't that adding a resurrection where there isn't one?

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The dead were judged.

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It's an astonishing promise, isn't it?

It is.

But still not sold on our being able to make ourselves taller physically (unless by props)?. even if one can make themselves taller, the growth or adding to of ‘cubits?’ would not make them perfect so what would the point to it be?

 

[Earburner]

It is also written:

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

You might be surprised at some of the things I did when I was a kid.

I know very well what reality is. If an angel speaks to me, I know other people can't hear it. If I see something spiritual, I also know other people around won't be seeing it. I know the difference between spiritual and physical.

About that gravity bit, do you recall Jesus walking on water or going up into a cloud? But did you understand what I wrote: "I" was up in the air. My physical body was still standing at the window.

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Have you also not read that we are seated in heavenly places? I've looked down at the earth more than once. Gravity wasn't a problem.

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Go ahead, say Paul was being childish and didn't understand gravity. . . .

Yes, I do understand the simplicity of taking God's words literally, but you now should be relating to it by the Holy Spirit, learning His spiritual understanding of His words as an adult.
In example, let's use one of the scriptures you posted:
Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
"Little children" do not think or worry about their needs for food, clothes or shelter. They explicitly trust their parent(s) to provide that for them.
So likewise, for what we need as Christians for forgiveness, salvation, spiritual food, spiritual clothing, we trust (have faith) that God will provide all of what we need, to be ready to meet Him in that Day!

 

[Giuliano]

It is.

But still not sold on our being able to make ourselves taller physically (unless by props)?. even if one can make themselves taller, the growth or adding to of ‘cubits?’ would not make them perfect so what would the point to it be?

Not in this physical body. But in your resurrected, you'll be able to if you wanted. I think there's another hidden reference to the resurrection in that passage when Jesus mentions lilies. I think it would be white ones -- Easter lilies. They're dressed in all white -- and at the top, they have yellow. White robes with gold crowns? The saints may be clothed like lilies more than we suppose. And get this: They grow in dirt, and so do we!