Earning Knowledge of God / Eternal Life

[marks]

Well, THIS conversation sure isn't.

I think you are right. We can't seem to stay focused on a passage long enough or detailed enough to show whether they say what we are saying that they say.

At least, you've indicated that the first one I tried with you doesn't say what I seem to think, but you won't tell me how my reading of it is incorrect.

And you are also right, this isn't our first rodeo together, so, maybe best to say good day!

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

No. The early church refused eternal security because it was NOT TAUGHT by any of the Apostles to THEIR students....like Justin Martyr or Igantius of Antioch, for instance.

You're agreeing with me. Why start with "No"?

He was a manachaen.

Manicheanism is Gnosticism.

You'd have to post something regarding the fact that Augustine believed in OSAS because I don't remember this.

Google AI :
St. Augustine did not explicitly teach the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved" (OSAS) in the way that some Protestant denominations understand it today, but his writings on the necessity of God's grace and the concept of perseverance of the saints are often interpreted as supporting a similar idea, where God's grace enables believers to persevere in faith until the end, effectively ensuring their salvation once they are truly converted; however, this interpretation is debated among theologians due to nuances in Augustine's writings.

Sorry GP,,,I don't understand what you're saying.
I think persons don't believe for various reasons...I don't think it's sin that causes unbelief.

Hebrews 3:12,13 says so.
Sin hardens the heart.

It does harden the heart.
Are you saying that people fall away because they sin and have a hard heart?
Yes. This could be a reason.
IOW,,,they turn away from God.
They become UNrepentent.

Hebrews 3:12,13 says it, not me.

 

[GracePeace]

Wow...I don't get confused easily,....but you're doing a good job!

We must trust God AND add good to the Kingdom of God on earth.

Do you believe Jesus came to set up the Kingdom of God on earth?
IOW...do you believe God wants us to make this a better place?


We will NOT be justified by our works ONLY.

Works without faith are dead works.
They're good for the person receiving them here, but if they're not done IN CHRIST,,,
they will be worthless.
Hebrews 11:5 tells us that if we want to please God we must believe that He exists....

THEN we do the good works.

But this is SANCTIFICATION....
NOT JUSTIFICATION.

Now the CC does not use the word SANCTIFICATION and it makes it a little difficult to understand the difference...
Let's say it this way:
Protestants believe in JUSTIFICATION and SANCTIFICATION
Catholics believe in INITITAL JUSTIFICATION and ONGOING JUSTIFICATION

It's the same thing.
We are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE...
THEN
come the good works.....sanctification or ongoing justification.



Not sure what you mean. What does Romans 14:23 say in your own words?

But we're not accepted by our works alone.
Nor are we saved by our faith alone.

We are saved BY FAITH IN JESUS and THEN we're required to do good works.
Read Ephesians 2:8-9 and explain it...

It's always by God's grace and mercy.
What do you have against doing good?
Are you worried you're not doing enough?
You should get to the root of your dilemma.

I think I gotta address this after I get back home. Too much to type on a phone.

 

[GracePeace]

@GracePeace

Wait.
IF you believe in OSAS,
AND you're worried about doing good works....
does this mean you're not sure of your salvation?
OR
Are you having this problem because you can't reconcile OSAS to the scripture re good works?

I believe in a form of OSAS : those who fall away retroactively never partook of Christ, they are blotted out, they become never-have-believed, so, in a sense, OSAS.

 

[GracePeace]

No. The early church refused eternal security because it was NOT TAUGHT by any of the Apostles to THEIR students....like Justin Martyr or Igantius of Antioch, for instance.

The word "refute" is not the word "refuse" : "refute" means "disprove" or "debunk".

 

[GracePeace]

There's no such thing as a carnal Christian.

1 Corinthians? Paul says the Corinthians are carnal.

 

[marks]

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

IF we are the sons of God NOW, when we see Him, we WILL BE like Him.

Who is the son of God who will not be transformed to become like Him? If any of God's children are not made to be like Him when He appears, then this Scripture would be false for them. I believe the Scriptures.

If we are God's children now, we will be like Him then.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation (lit. Citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

If we are citizens of heaven now, Jesus will transform us then.

All of these don't allow that someone who is reborn will fail to remain reborn, a child of God.

Again, the wording is plain and clear. You can say, "It's debateable", but I'd want to see the specifics behind that. Because the wording in these passages is clear.

They are either believed or disbelieved.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

IF we are the sons of God NOW, when we see Him, we WILL BE like Him.

Who is the son of God who will not be transformed to become like Him? If any of God's children are not made to be like Him when He appears, then this Scripture would be false for them. I believe the Scriptures.

If we are God's children now, we will be like Him then.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation (lit. Citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

If we are citizens of heaven now, Jesus will transform us then.

All of these don't allow that someone who is reborn will fail to remain reborn, a child of God.

Again, the wording is plain and clear. You can say, "It's debateable", but I'd want to see the specifics behind that. Because the wording in these passages is clear.

They are either believed or disbelieved.

Much love!

We've been through all of your arguments, it seems--you have gone to these same passages over and over and over in various threads I've made--and I've given my responses, and we've differed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Shall appear means it will happen. May appear means maybe it will and maybe it won't.

I'm just wondering what specifically in the passage you thought was debateable.

Here's what is debatable marks...

Paul also previews the return, or "second coming," of Christ. This theme is important to Paul, but can be controversial among Bible interpreters. There is debate regarding whether there will be one or two future return events of Christ. This really boils down to whether or not a person believes there will be a rapture—a "taking away" of saved believers—separately from Christ's ultimate victorious return (Revelation 19:11). Those who interpret the Bible as speaking of the rapture and second coming as two separate events do so based on details in the account of the end times; these seem to imply two separate and distinct events.

In this specific context, Paul clearly anticipates Christ returning at any moment. This is a theme both consistent and clear through the New Testament. When Christ "appears," believers will be with Him in glory (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18; 1 John 3:2).


The beginning of the above is pertinent to this discussion:

Paul continues to highlight Christ as the source of true life for all Christian believers. This verse creates an interesting discussion regarding the original text. Some ancient manuscripts have "our life," others have "your life." The latter is considered more likely by textual critics, though the meaning is exactly the same. Paul, as a Christian, is just as much alive in Jesus as the Colossian Christians he is writing to (Colossians 3:1). Christ is not only the giver and sustainer of life (Colossians 1:16); Christ is our life.

source: What does Colossians 3:4 mean? | BibleRef.com

I don't really use commentaries, but I don't know too much about eschatology so I used the one above...re the debatable part.

But the first part was interesting too. (the second paragraph which I also highlighted.)

You said that you read each verse and take it literally.
What do you do when 2 verses contradict each other?

You understand Colossians 3:4 to be saying that those that are in Christ will be raised with Christ.

It states exactly:
Colossians 3:4
When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

The same letter....Colossians 1:23 states that Jesus has reconciled us to His body so as to present us holy and blameless before Him
IF we continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast.

Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

That's a big IF marks....it cannot be ignored.

We will be presented Holy before Him at the end of times IF we CONTINUE in the faith.

Colossians 3:4 states that Christ, Who is our life.....

If a person falls away from the faith,,,
Christ is no longer their life.

IF we continue in the faith,,,we will be presented blameless before Him and we will also be revealed in glory.

 

[GodsGrace]

This passage states in no uncertain terms that the one who has been raised with Him now will appear with Him then.

So my question is, Is that true? Will those who have been raised with Christ in this life in fact appear with Christ in glory when He is revealed?

Because according to this passage, yes, they will. So who is it that would be lost? If someone who had been raised with Christ, who had died with Christ, and was hid with Christ, if they do not actually appear with Christ in glory, this Scripture would be false for that person.

I believe the Bible is exactly true, and that this part is exactly true also.

Much love!

If you believe the bible is true...
then you must believe it is all true.
You cannot pull one verse out of the NT and make a doctrine out of it
when it has conflicting verses.

IF there's a conflict...then you must study and learn WHY.

Colossians 3:4 is true IF we continue in the faith.

 

[marks]

If you believe the bible is true...
then you must believe it is all true.
You cannot pull one verse out of the NT and make a doctrine out of it
when it has conflicting verses.

IF there's a conflict...then you must study and learn WHY.

Of course! Everyone knows that!

Colossians 3:4 is true IF we continue in the faith.

You are adding to the passasge. That's a no-no.

What really needs to happen is that you use the unambiguous passages to interpret the ambiguous. That's what I've done.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Here's what is debatable marks...

You aren't addressing the passage itself. You are only telling me why you don't believe the passage is true as written. I think they ALL are.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course! Everyone knows that!


You are adding to the passasge. That's a no-no.

What really needs to happen is that you use the unambiguous passages to interpret the ambiguous. That's what I've done.

Much love!

marks...
WHAT is ambiguous about this:

Colossians 1:22.23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Here are the exact words.....no words added as you have accused me of doing.

HE HAS NOT RECONCILED YOU IN HIS FLESHLY BODY THROUGH DEATH, IN ORDER TO PRESENT YOU BEFORE HIM HOLY
AND BLAMELESS AND BEYOND REPROACH...
IF INDEED YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH FIRMLY ESTABLISHED AND STEADFAST AND NOT MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL.

Now..could you please explain in your words what Colossians 1:22-23 means?
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

You aren't addressing the passage itself. You are only telling me why you don't believe the passage is true as written. I think they ALL are.

Much love!

You know....I wouldn't be surprised if @GracePeace stopped posting to you altogether.

WHAT are you saying?
How many times have I addressed your verse now?

Perhaps YOU could explain the verse to us who are just unable to understand simple English.

 

[marks]

I think we need to cool down a bit.

And we haven't finished on the passage we were discussing.

I believe exactly what this says, while it seems you do not.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This says what it says. I'm more interested completing this part of the discussion before moving to other passages.

This passage states that those who have been raised with Christ will appear with Him. You seem to think that some won't. You've called the passage debateable.

So does it say that or not? Whether or not you believe it, are you able to admit this is what the words say?

Much love!

 

[marks]

How many times have I addressed your verse now?

But you haven't. You've only denied it's meaning, and that's not the same.

I've pointed to the key words, clarifying their meaning, showing the passage construction, declaring what it says. And you say, no it doesn't mean that, but you have so far not posted any kind of analysis or interpretation of the wording of the passage itself.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

I think we need to cool down a bit.

And we haven't finished on the passage we were discussing.

I believe exactly what this says, while it seems you do not.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This says what it says. I'm more interested completing this part of the discussion before moving to other passages.

This passage states that those who have been raised with Christ will appear with Him. You seem to think that some won't. You've called the passage debateable.

So does it say that or not? Whether or not you believe it, are you able to admit this is what the words say?

Much love!

You must have a lot of time on your hands marks.
I don't.
The bible is a whole thought...an entire idea.
It's not made up of verses.

Do you know about exegesis?
That would be good to know.

Here's more scripture for you to ponder:

2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

I have more.
But if you prefer to stay with ONE VERSE that gives you comfort,
then so be it. OSAS is not a biblical doctrine, no matter how long
you remain in Colossians 3:4

 

[GodsGrace]

But you haven't. You've only denied it's meaning, and that's not the same.

I've pointed to the key words, clarifying their meaning, showing the passage construction, declaring what it says. And you say, no it doesn't mean that, but you have so far not posted any kind of analysis or interpretation of the wording of the passage itself.

Much love!

I NEVER said it doesn't say that!
Please post where I said that Colossians 3:4 says something different than what you're saying.

WHAT I SAID IS THAT THERE'S A BIG IF TO COLOSSIANS 3:4

Colossians 1:23
IF WE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH....THEN Colossians 3:4 will be true.

Take it or leave it marks.
Bye.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think we need to cool down a bit.

And we haven't finished on the passage we were discussing.

I believe exactly what this says, while it seems you do not.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This says what it says. I'm more interested completing this part of the discussion before moving to other passages.

This passage states that those who have been raised with Christ will appear with Him. You seem to think that some won't. You've called the passage debateable.

So does it say that or not? Whether or not you believe it, are you able to admit this is what the words say?

Much love!

There's a caveat attached to the words.
Caveats should be given a lot of attention....

 

[marks]

There's a caveat attached to the words.
Caveats should be given a lot of attention....

Post that please. Let's look at it.

Much love!