Earning Knowledge of God / Eternal Life

[marks]

I can't help seeing, throughout Scripture, that the upcoming judgment on how we have lived as Christians is the final word on whether we will retain eternal life.

This will put you in conflict with a number of Scriptures.

Personally I find 2 things being considered, in Galatians, and other places, one being our eternal life, the other being our earthly behavior. If earthly behavior determines our reconciliation to God, we are under Law, and not under Grace. Being reconciled to God in Jesus Christ means it's not based on our behavior.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sure did, yet, I can't help seeing, throughout Scripture, that the upcoming judgment on how we have lived as Christians is the final word on whether we will retain eternal life. Matthew says it (Mt 18, 25), Paul says it (Ro 2), Hebrews says it (Heb 3, 10), James says it (Ja 2), John says it (Jn 5, Rv 2,3). I wouldn't be honest with myself if I didn't acknowledge those things--and yet there is apparently a right and a wrong way of acknowledging those things. Maybe putting not enough emphasis on what Christ did for us. The Galatians, for instance, never stopped acknowledging Christ's death and resurrection, but they certainly were " hindered... from obeying the truth" (Gal 5), so that they were "so quickly deserting Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ", and the issue was, in a sense, so that it applies here, an issue of good works, or sanctification ("having begun in the Spirit are you now being perfected by the flesh [works of the Law]?"). So, it seems it is possible to approach the issue of good works/sanctification (which would, in this view, pertain to both ongoing and ultimate justification) in such a way that results in unbelief, thus forfeiture of what Christ came for and was all about ("You have been severed from Christ..." Gal 5:4).

You should actually post all those passsage where you are seeing the regenerate can become unregenerate.

That God would take the person who was crucified in Christ, who died with Him on the cross, and who was raised with Him into new life. You are asserting that God would remove that new life from His child, and resurrect the flesh man to take the place of the new creation.

It would mean that the Bible is actually untrue, because it clearly teaches that those who died with Jesus will appear with Him in glory. It teaches that those who are His children now will be like Jesus when they see Him. These are plain statements, that are either true or not true.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

You should actually post all those passsage where you are seeing the regenerate can become unregenerate.

That God would take the person who was crucified in Christ, who died with Him on the cross, and who was raised with Him into new life. You are asserting that God would remove that new life from His child, and resurrect the flesh man to take the place of the new creation.

It would mean that the Bible is actually untrue, because it clearly teaches that those who died with Jesus will appear with Him in glory. It teaches that those who are His children now will be like Jesus when they see Him. These are plain statements, that are either true or not true.

Much love!

We've already discussed them at length--we differ.

 

[GracePeace]

This will put you in conflict with a number of Scriptures.

Personally I find 2 things being considered, in Galatians, and other places, one being our eternal life, the other being our earthly behavior. If earthly behavior determines our reconciliation to God, we are under Law, and not under Grace. Being reconciled to God in Jesus Christ means it's not based on our behavior.

Much love!

Yep, as stated, I don't know how to reconcile all of these things--one thing I won't do is be dishonest with myself, throw some of the doctrines out, just so I can think i found a consistent coherent conclusion.

 

[marks]

Yep, as stated, I don't know how to reconcile all of these things--one thing I won't do is be dishonest with myself, throw some of the doctrines out, just so I can think i found a consistent coherent conclusion.

Of course! We don't just toss out anything. I'm simply saying that so long as you perceive a conflict between two or more passages, you need to learn more what each one does and does not say, until you can accept each one word for word, and without any disharmony with other Scripture. This often involves looking at Greek grammar, and doing word studies to learn how God uses these words.

You seem set on certain ideas that conflict with other ideas you see equally set on, and I'm suggesting the answers are there, but if you hold too tightly to premature conclusions it can prevent a full understanding.

In reconciling seemingly conflicting passages, I've found the answer seems to always be in seeing which are ambiguous and which are not. Some wordings can mean more than one thing, while others are particular and specific. So for those that can mean more than one thing, we find the parallel passage that is specific.

I've found that the deeper I dig, the message is clear and consistent.

The Apostles wrote towards not just 2 groups of people, saved and unsaved, they addressed 3 groups, the saved, the unsaved, and the counterfeit 'saved'. Those who are in the church, even seem "saved", but are not actually reborn. And so much is written for them, admonishing that we honestly look at ourselves to see if we really are born again.

I wouldn't mind working through any passage of Scripture you would like, but I'd first call out a some specific passages which leave no room for alternate understandings. These are not ambiguous in the least, and make strongly worded statements that disallow that one who is truly born again will go on to be lost from Jesus. It won't happen, and the Bible declares this.

When we go back to any of these other passages armed with this knowledge, well, I've found in every case, and I've been looking at this for many years, and very seriously, I've found in every case that all Scriptures agree with this truth.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We've already discussed them at length--we differ.

I've been starting to remember some of our previous conversations, it helps! I tend to be a "live in the moment" kind of guy . . .

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Of course! We don't just toss out anything. I'm simply saying that so long as you perceive a conflict between two or more passages, you need to learn more what each one does and does not say, until you can accept each one word for word, and without any disharmony with other Scripture. This often involves looking at Greek grammar, and doing word studies to learn how God uses these words.

Yep.

You seem set on certain ideas that conflict with other ideas you see equally set on, and I'm suggesting the answers are there, but if you hold too tightly to premature conclusions it can prevent a full understanding.

To me, it's just reading the Bible. I wouldn't be holding to these ideas for no reason.
Paul exclaims "how far past finding out are His ways".
He said that because he knew the Scriptures and couldn't figure them out (without revelation).
God's Word is just not that easy to understand.

In reconciling seemingly conflicting passages, I've found the answer seems to always be in seeing which are ambiguous and which are not.

Yep, that's a good place to start.

Some wordings can mean more than one thing, while others are particular and specific. So for those that can mean more than one thing, we find the parallel passage that is specific.

Yep.

I've found that the deeper I dig, the message is clear and consistent.

LOL I've found the more I read the more I feel like I'm drowning in information.

The Apostles wrote towards not just 2 groups of people, saved and unsaved, they addressed 3 groups, the saved, the unsaved, and the counterfeit 'saved'. Those who are in the church, even seem "saved", but are not actually reborn.

They warned about false brothers, too.
John also wrote to three groups of saved--little children (immature), young men (intermediately mature), and fathers (mature).

I wouldn't mind working through any passage of Scripture you would like, but I'd first call out a some specific passages which leave no room for alternate understandings. These are not ambiguous in the least, and make strongly worded statements that disallow that one who is truly born again will go on to be lost from Jesus. It won't happen, and the Bible declares this.

We've already discussed it at length. I'm not sure any more discussion will yield any different outcome. I'm wary of wasting my resources. We just see things differently. You mentioned you don't always remember when you've spoken with someone (probably because you interact with so many people).

When we go back to any of these other passages armed with this knowledge, well, I've found in every case, and I've been looking at this for many years, and very seriously, I've found in every case that all Scriptures agree with this truth.

Much love!

We differ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yep.

To me, it's just reading the Bible. I wouldn't be holding to these ideas for no reason.
Paul exclaims "how far past finding out are His ways".
He said that because he knew the Scriptures and couldn't figure them out (without revelation).
God's Word is just not that easy to understand.

Yep, that's a good place to start.

Yep.

LOL I've found the more I read the more I feel like I'm drowning in information.

They warned about false brothers, too.
John also wrote to three groups of saved--little children (immature), young men (intermediately mature), and fathers (mature).

We've already discussed it at length. I'm not sure any more discussion will yield any different outcome. I'm wary of wasting my resources. We just see things differently. You mentioned you don't always remember when you've spoken with someone (probably because you interact with so many people).

We differ.

Hi GP,,,,
just going through quick.
I didn't even read all of the above.....
You actually are NOT wrong.
Our behavior on this earth will be judged.
People that believe they're saved NO MATTER what their behavior is are not only
ignoring and throwing out a lot of scripture...but they are also putting souls in danger
because Jesus DID teach that we are to obey.

I think your problem may be one that many have...
they feel they cannot be good enough to please God.
I think I addressed this in a previous post where I said that we should not go by
our feelings but by scripture.
Scripture tells us that as LONG AS we have faith in God/Jesus, we will be saved.

But it also tells us that faith without works is a dead faith.
So good works/deeds are necessary.

But why should this be a problem?
Don't you think you're doing any good in this world?
In love, don't you try to help others - even in your own family?
Don't you try not to be harmful to others?
I mean, what is it that makes a person worry so?
ARE you worried? I don't know this for sure...but it sounds like you are.

I'll end it here.

 

[GodsGrace]

You should actually post all those passsage where you are seeing the regenerate can become unregenerate.

That God would take the person who was crucified in Christ, who died with Him on the cross, and who was raised with Him into new life. You are asserting that God would remove that new life from His child, and resurrect the flesh man to take the place of the new creation.

It would mean that the Bible is actually untrue, because it clearly teaches that those who died with Jesus will appear with Him in glory. It teaches that those who are His children now will be like Jesus when they see Him. These are plain statements, that are either true or not true.

Much love!

What a dangerous teaching!

God DOES NOT remove new life from a child of His.

It's the person that removes himself from God.
We're admonished to HOLD FAST to our faith...
We're admonished NOT TO FALL AWAY....
Happy to go through verses with you.....

Besides the fact that OSAS was NEVER taught in the early church just after Jesus.
In fact, it wasn't taught at all until about the 1800's if I remember correctly. (maybe sooner).

Even Luther did not believe in eternal security.
It all depends on faith...of course.
And if we have faith, we will obey the teachings of Jesus.

Although Luther agreed that the merits of Christ were the sole basis of a man’s justification, and that it did not depend in any way on a man’s deeds, Luther still thought that a man could lose his justification if he totally and finally turned away from Christ. Since God’s gift of forgiveness of sins and eternal life was appropriated by faith, if a man decided not to rest his eternal destiny in Christ, and totally turned against Him, Luther believed that only then would a man lose his salvation. In other words, the only sin that Luther thought would cause a man to lose his salvation was the sin of unrepentant apostasy

sorry, I lost the source....

 

[marks]

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

There are no caveats here.

Regardess . . . I am remembering now how you deal with this. Am I correct that you would answer that if you fall away, it's as though your rebirth never was?

Much love!

BTW . . . I have no idea for the most part what Luther taught. I know he had some bizarre ideas, I'm certain I don't agree with him on some things.

 

[marks]

You don't make yourself reborn, you can't make yourself unreborn. You don't get to just become God-like and change your ontology at your own choosing.

What is rebirth? It is creation of new spirit life. Man has no power over the soul, only over the body. You can kill your body but you can't kill your soul. Do you suppose you can kill your new creation spirit, that is alive because it's united to the Holy Spirit?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Happy to go through verses with you.....

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Let's look at this one. What is it saying to you?

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Hi GP,,,,
just going through quick.
I didn't even read all of the above.....
You actually are NOT wrong.
Our behavior on this earth will be judged.
People that believe they're saved NO MATTER what their behavior is are not only
ignoring and throwing out a lot of scripture...but they are also putting souls in danger
because Jesus DID teach that we are to obey.

I think your problem may be one that many have...
they feel they cannot be good enough to please God.
I think I addressed this in a previous post where I said that we should not go by
our feelings but by scripture.
Scripture tells us that as LONG AS we have faith in God/Jesus, we will be saved.

But it also tells us that faith without works is a dead faith.
So good works/deeds are necessary.

But why should this be a problem?
Don't you think you're doing any good in this world?
In love, don't you try to help others - even in your own family?
Don't you try not to be harmful to others?
I mean, what is it that makes a person worry so?
ARE you worried? I don't know this for sure...but it sounds like you are.

I'll end it here.

I don't know that I believe that people will be saved as long as they trust God.
What makes that difficult to understand is that we will be justified by our works in the coming judgment--and people who sin are condemned not justified (Ro 14:23).
So, it's like, there is a way of viewing this that is correct and another way that is incorrect, it seems.
When you think you're going to be accepted by God by works today, then you're no longer trusting in Jesus... yet, it is also true that you are condemned if you don't do good. I guess the question is what you do AFTER you sin. Then, you can't be justified by works, only by God's mercy.

 

[GracePeace]

You don't make yourself reborn, you can't make yourself unreborn. You don't get to just become God-like and change your ontology at your own choosing.

What is rebirth? It is creation of new spirit life. Man has no power over the soul, only over the body. You can kill your body but you can't kill your soul. Do you suppose you can kill your new creation spirit, that is alive because it's united to the Holy Spirit?

Much love!

We've gone through this already.
I gave my responses, you differed.

 

[GracePeace]

Besides the fact that OSAS was NEVER taught in the early church just after Jesus.
In fact, it wasn't taught at all until about the 1800's if I remember correctly. (maybe sooner).

The Gnostics taught it, and the Church, refuting the Gnostics, refuted OSAS for the first few hundred years.
Later, Augustine "Christianized" OSAS. He had been a Gnostic previously.

Although Luther agreed that the merits of Christ were the sole basis of a man’s justification, and that it did not depend in any way on a man’s deeds, Luther still thought that a man could lose his justification if he totally and finally turned away from Christ. Since God’s gift of forgiveness of sins and eternal life was appropriated by faith, if a man decided not to rest his eternal destiny in Christ, and totally turned against Him, Luther believed that only then would a man lose his salvation. In other words, the only sin that Luther thought would cause a man to lose his salvation was the sin of unrepentant apostasy

It's interesting to note, though, that unbelief comes through sin--sin hardens the heart, and turns it into a heart of unbelief. Therefore, even a person who argues that sin itself is not directly the reason someone is rejected, sin is the reason the heart is hardened to unbelief, and the falling away.

 

[GodsGrace]

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Let's look at this one. What is it saying to you?

Much love!

Colossians. Right. Chapter 2 and forward tell of how we're supposed to act/behave.
It explains how Jesus is Lord.
Problem is: Some want Jesus as Savior but not as Lord.


Colossians 3:1-4
Verse 1: It tells us TO SEEK (present tense...keep seeking) things from above.
We never stop seeking.

Verse 2: Tells us to set our minds on things above...NOT on things here on earth...IOW,,,not to be carnal.
What you teach sounds like we could be carnal and still be saved. (I'm not sure 100% what you believe so I apologize if I've misunderstood).

Verse 3: Our life is hidden with Christ in God. We're in the JESUS ENVELOPE and Jesus is in the GOD ENVELOPE. ( A lesson I used to use on young kids). IOW...our OLD life is dead.

Verse 4: This could be debated. To me it just means that when Christ returns (at the end of time) we will be glorified with Him.


So where does the above address your idea that behavior is not important??
Or that we cannot lose our salvation??

 

[GodsGrace]

The Gnostics taught it,

BINGO!

and the Church, refuting the Gnostics, refuted OSAS for the first few hundred years.

No. The early church refused eternal security because it was NOT TAUGHT by any of the Apostles to THEIR students....like Justin Martyr or Igantius of Antioch, for instance.

Later, Augustine "Christianized" OSAS. He had been a Gnostic previously.

He was a manachaen.
You'd have to post something regarding the fact that Augustine believed in OSAS because I don't remember this.

It's interesting to note, though, that unbelief comes through sin--sin hardens the heart, and turns it into a heart of unbelief. Therefore, even a person who argues that sin itself is not directly the reason someone is rejected, sin is the reason the heart is hardened to unbelief, and the falling away.

Sorry GP,,,I don't understand what you're saying.
I think persons don't believe for various reasons...I don't think it's sin that causes unbelief.
It does harden the heart.
Are you saying that people fall away because they sin and have a hard heart?
Yes. This could be a reason.
IOW,,,they turn away from God.
They become UNrepentent.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know that I believe that people will be saved as long as they trust God.

Wow...I don't get confused easily,....but you're doing a good job!

We must trust God AND add good to the Kingdom of God on earth.

Do you believe Jesus came to set up the Kingdom of God on earth?
IOW...do you believe God wants us to make this a better place?

What makes that difficult to understand is that we will be justified by our works

We will NOT be justified by our works ONLY.

Works without faith are dead works.
They're good for the person receiving them here, but if they're not done IN CHRIST,,,
they will be worthless.
Hebrews 11:5 tells us that if we want to please God we must believe that He exists....

THEN we do the good works.

But this is SANCTIFICATION....
NOT JUSTIFICATION.

Now the CC does not use the word SANCTIFICATION and it makes it a little difficult to understand the difference...
Let's say it this way:
Protestants believe in JUSTIFICATION and SANCTIFICATION
Catholics believe in INITITAL JUSTIFICATION and ONGOING JUSTIFICATION

It's the same thing.
We are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE...
THEN
come the good works.....sanctification or ongoing justification.

in the coming judgment--and people who sin are condemned not justified (Ro 14:23).

Not sure what you mean. What does Romans 14:23 say in your own words?

So, it's like, there is a way of viewing this that is correct and another way that is incorrect, it seems.
When you think you're going to be accepted by God by works today, then you're no longer trusting in Jesus...

But we're not accepted by our works alone.
Nor are we saved by our faith alone.

We are saved BY FAITH IN JESUS and THEN we're required to do good works.
Read Ephesians 2:8-9 and explain it...

yet, it is also true that you are condemned if you don't do good. I guess the question is what you do AFTER you sin. Then, you can't be justified by works, only by God's mercy.

It's always by God's grace and mercy.
What do you have against doing good?
Are you worried you're not doing enough?
You should get to the root of your dilemma.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GracePeace

Wait.
IF you believe in OSAS,
AND you're worried about doing good works....
does this mean you're not sure of your salvation?
OR
Are you having this problem because you can't reconcile OSAS to the scripture re good works?

 

[marks]

What you teach sounds like we could be carnal and still be saved. (I'm not sure 100% what you believe so I apologize if I've misunderstood).

You would do better to ask questions that to post your guess, and in particular when you post like this.

Let me ask you. Do you believe in 2 classes of Christians, the Spiritual Christian, and the Carnal Christian?

Much love!