Earning Knowledge of God / Eternal Life

[GodsGrace]

That's a debate for the Orthodox and RCs. My point was there has not been a singular unquestioned authoritative Church, we have to stick to God's Word as best we can.

Cool.

Cool.

I kinda felt bad for you because you weren't even addressing my problem. Lol

I hope not?

I mean, Biblically, there is the precedent that the gift of the Promised Land came with the stipulation that it had to be "possessed", so you could argue we don't merit or earn the gift, but there is always the stipulation that we "fight the fight of faith, lay hold on the eternal life to which you have been called" so that at the end of our lives we can say like Paul "i have fought a good fight, I have kept the faith; there is therefore laid up for me the crown of life".

I've read a few of your threads/posts and I'm still unsure of what you believe.
We cannot earn salvation...agreed.
It must come by faith as is taught throughout the entire bible.
What do you mean by "fight the good fight"?
I agree that we must hold on to eternal life.
I DO NOT believe in OSAS....I believe our salvation could be forfeited...
but not when we sin...I think we sin every day...and that would make salvation a turnstile salvation.
All joy would be lost.
I believe that the bible teaches that it is by falling away....by departing from....by apostacy.
When someone posts on these sites that they fear they've lost their salvation....I always say that they haven't...those that have lost their salvation are not a bit worried about it.
And yes, we receive our salvation at the end of our lives.

 

[GodsGrace]

In my experience, and in Scripture, God is too good to deserve knowing Him. Therefore, it has to be a gift.

In Ephesians 2:8-9 all 3 are gifts:
GRACE
FAITH
SALVATION

And, in that order.

Everything we get from God is a gift...this is what grace is.

I'm not sure what you mean by "knowing Him". Or that He's "too good to know".
Of course God wants us to know Him...
Isn't this why He revealed Himself to us?
God has revealed Himself through both the Old and New Testaments,,,but specifically and more so, dare I say,
through the NT which is God's word INCARNATE.

However, it seems to me I am only blessed if I walk in faith, doing what I am convinced is correct. Otherwise my conscience is defiled, and God doesn't answer my prayers.

I don't think we do anything so that God can answer our prayers.
He also answers the prayer of the unsaved, or they'd never become saved.

As to being blessed....
Yes.
IF we do what God commanded, then we will be blessed.
If for no other reason, than that we are protected from many ills, dangers, heartaches, just by following Jesus' instructions alone...
even if there's no input from God... However, yes, sometimes we'll receive a real blessing from God.

However, in my experience, even when I was doing all I believed was correct, spending every last ounce of strength to serve God--and this also seems to be attested to in Scripture--God told me I was wrong for trying to save myself,

Why are you spending every last ounce of strength to serve God?
IF God tells you to do something...He also gives you the strength to do it.
If you feel like your spending your last ounce of strength in doing something...
yes...maybe it's YOU doing it and you're doing too much.
This would require a spiritual advisor that you trust and have known a long time and isn't really a topic
for a forum such as this. You might get incorrect information that is not specifically suited to your particular case.

and I just needed forgiveness. John says if we keep His commands we have confidence toward God--and i had a lot of confidence, but i think it was the "but not before God" type, because when I went before God, He just pointed to my sins,

Sounds like you're unable to forgive yourself for the sins God has already forgiven you.
Man forgives...
God forgets...

whereas I was trying to point to my good deeds, my deeds of faith,, to prove to God that I loved Him and that He should accept me because I was good. I thought i was being heroic in my obedience, but apparently (according to God) I was trying to save myself, trying to pay for my sins.

Well, you've answered your own question.
Jesus said that only God is good.
He meant something different by this but even taking it at face value...we can understand that we can never be good enough for God.
However, after doing what Jesus said to do in John 3:5...become born again...we can know that we have become children of God...
1 John 3:1
1How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!

One of the first things I learned in theology is that we cannot go by our feelings,,,
but only by the word of God.

So it seems like we have to serve God, but it seems like we can't do it with the attitude that we are saving ourselves, even though it really is the case that we will be damned if we do not do right by faith.

Goodness GP....how will we be damned if we're children of God??

 

[marks]

So it seems like we have to serve God, but it seems like we can't do it with the attitude that we are saving ourselves, even though it really is the case that we will be damned if we do not do right by faith.

I think you need to decide which is real.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

I think you need to decide which is real.

Much love!

I gotta agree with Scripture--Jesus says those who do good will resurrect to life, same thing written everywhere else in Scripture. It's a question as to how to hold to both doctrines not just one.

If I dismiss one for "convenience", how am I not making God a liar?

 

[GracePeace]

In Ephesians 2:8-9 all 3 are gifts:
GRACE
FAITH
SALVATION

And, in that order.

Everything we get from God is a gift...this is what grace is.

Yep, except there's a difference we may have on the definition of "saved" which I don't want to get in to.

I'm not sure what you mean by "knowing Him". Or that He's "too good to know".
Of course God wants us to know Him...
Isn't this why He revealed Himself to us?

Too good to know by our good deeds bc the deeds can't close the gap between He and us created by our sin (Is 59:1).

God has revealed Himself through both the Old and New Testaments,,,but specifically and more so, dare I say,
through the NT which is God's word INCARNATE.

Yep, He's revealed Himself more and more over time.

I don't think we do anything so that God can answer our prayers.

John 9:31
We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

1 John 3
18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth, and will assure our hearts in His presence: 20Even if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts, and He knows all things.

21Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God, 22and we will receive from Him whatever we ask, because we keep His commandments and do what is pleasing in His sight. 23And this is His commandment: that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another just as He commanded us.

Why are you spending every last ounce of strength to serve God?
IF God tells you to do something...He also gives you the strength to do it.
If you feel like your spending your last ounce of strength in doing something...
yes...maybe it's YOU doing it and you're doing too much.
This would require a spiritual advisor that you trust and have known a long time and isn't really a topic
for a forum such as this. You might get incorrect information that is not specifically suited to your particular case.

Jesus says "make every effort", so I was going by that.

Well, you've answered your own question.
Jesus said that only God is good.
He meant something different by this but even taking it at face value...we can understand that we can never be good enough for God.
However, after doing what Jesus said to do in John 3:5...become born again...we can know that we have become children of God...
1 John 3:1
1How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!

One of the first things I learned in theology is that we cannot go by our feelings,,,
but only by the word of God.

It's a good thing to not go by feelings but by truth... what ever that might ultimately be.

Goodness GP....how will we be damned if we're children of God??

He can forget you were ever His if you don't behave.

 

[GracePeace]

I've read a few of your threads/posts and I'm still unsure of what you believe.
We cannot earn salvation...agreed.
It must come by faith as is taught throughout the entire bible.
What do you mean by "fight the good fight"?
I agree that we must hold on to eternal life.
I DO NOT believe in OSAS....I believe our salvation could be forfeited...
but not when we sin...I think we sin every day...and that would make salvation a turnstile salvation.
All joy would be lost.
I believe that the bible teaches that it is by falling away....by departing from....by apostacy.
When someone posts on these sites that they fear they've lost their salvation....I always say that they haven't...those that have lost their salvation are not a bit worried about it.
And yes, we receive our salvation at the end of our lives.

I was trying to help you make your argument.

Maybe you don't know what I believe because I can't make heads or tails of the entire message of Scripture taken as a whole, and that was what I was explaining

 

[marks]

I gotta agree with Scripture--Jesus says those who do good will resurrect to life, same thing written everywhere else in Scripture. It's a question as to how to hold to both doctrines not just one.

If I dismiss one for "convenience", how am I not making God a liar?

I just happen to think that the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

I just happen to think that the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

Much love!

I agree it doesn't--if I thought it did, I wouldn't spend time seeking to understand what it is actually saying (ie, reconciling this doctrine with that doctrine).

 

[marks]

I agree it doesn't--if I thought it did, I wouldn't spend time seeking to understand what it is actually saying (ie, reconciling this doctrine with that doctrine).

Do you consider different dispensations? That is to say, there is a difference in how God's grace was given to man under the Law, compared to in Christ?

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Do you consider different dispensations? That is to say, there is a difference in how God's grace was given to man under the Law, compared to in Christ?

Much love!

Of course we're not under Law.

 

[marks]

Of course we're not under Law.

The reason why I ask is that what I've found is that a number of these seeming inconsistencies relate to the fact of differences in God's message to man.

Another simple example is that God told Abraham the Gospel which was this: You won't be able to count how many children you'll have! And Abraham believed God, and He counted it for righteousness. But to us He says, If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Jesus lived with and taught those who were still under the Law. That wouldn't change until after His death and resurrection. Some of His teachings seem in conflict with other NT teaching, but this has a lot to do with that. Jesus taught those under the Law, Paul taught "post Law", so there is a difference.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

The reason why I ask is that what I've found is that a number of these seeming inconsistencies relate to the fact of differences in God's message to man.

Another simple example is that God told Abraham the Gospel which was this: You won't be able to count how many children you'll have! And Abraham believed God, and He counted it for righteousness. But to us He says, If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Jesus lived with and taught those who were still under the Law. That wouldn't change until after His death and resurrection. Some of His teachings seem in conflict with other NT teaching, but this has a lot to do with that. Jesus taught those under the Law, Paul taught "post Law", so there is a difference.

Much love!

1. I think Jesus used the Law appropriately (1 Ti 1:9)--testing people to see if they would be honest about whether they measured up to the standard, or would lie and claim to measure up ("You know the commands..."). That's the same way it is used today.
Jesus said the sinner who asked for mercy went home justified.
He also used the Law to "shut every mouth" (Ro 3) : "Whoever is without sin cast the first stone."

There was no point in time when the Law resulted in righteousness or life, and God never expected men to keep the Law for life.

2. Jesus said "Go disciple the nations teaching them to observe what ever I have taught you" so I don't go with the idea that we aren't to receive teachings He gave while on earth.

 

[marks]

1. I think Jesus used the Law appropriately (1 Ti 1:9)--testing people to see if they would be honest about whether they measured up to the standard, or would lie and claim to measure up ("You know the commands..."). That's the same way it is used today.
Jesus said the sinner who asked for mercy went home justified.
He also used the Law to "shut every mouth" (Ro 3) : "Whoever is without sin cast the first stone."

There was no point in time when the Law resulted in righteousness or life, and God never expected men to keep the Law for life.

2. Jesus said "Go disciple the nations teaching them to observe what ever I have taught you" so I don't go with the idea that we aren't to receive teachings He gave while on earth.

Many people would say the same things.

However.

Jesus said that if you fail to forgive others, God will not forgive you. Paul wrote that we are to forgive others because God has already forgiven us.

Jesus' statement accords with the Law. Paul's Statement accords with grace. The Bible doesn't contradict itself, however, if you assert that we are under both teachings, then there is a contradiction.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Many people would say the same things.

However.

Jesus said that if you fail to forgive others, God will not forgive you. Paul wrote that we are to forgive others because God has already forgiven us.

Jesus' statement accords with the Law. Paul's Statement accords with grace. The Bible doesn't contradict itself, however, if you assert that we are under both teachings, then there is a contradiction.

Much love!

Yeah, Jesus taught the same as Paul : in Matthew 18, the man had already been forgiven, and he was to forgive on account of that, and had the forgiveness extended to him rescinded because he did not forgive. These are one and the same teachings.

 

[marks]

Yeah, Jesus taught the same as Paul : in Matthew 18, the man had already been forgiven, and he was to forgive on account of that, and had the forgiveness extended to him rescinded because he did not forgive. These are one and the same teachings.

OK, I'll leave you to your studies, you can feel free to ask should you have any questions.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

OK, I'll leave you to your studies, you can feel free to ask should you have any questions.

Much love!

It may just be a matter of emphasis. You who really emphasize Christ's atonement may have a helpful and right emphasis.

 

[marks]

It may just be a matter of emphasis. You who really emphasize Christ's atonement may have a helpful and right emphasis.

To me it's pretty clear cut. It all fits together.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

To me it's pretty clear cut. It all fits together.

Much love!

It all fits together, i just don't know how. Lol thanks!

 

[marks]

It all fits together, i just don't know how. Lol thanks!

Let's just say . . . the cross changed things.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Let's just say . . . the cross changed things.

Much love!

Sure did, yet, I can't help seeing, throughout Scripture, that the upcoming judgment on how we have lived as Christians is the final word on whether we will retain eternal life. Matthew says it (Mt 18, 25), Paul says it (Ro 2), Hebrews says it (Heb 3, 10), James says it (Ja 2), John says it (Jn 5, Rv 2,3). I wouldn't be honest with myself if I didn't acknowledge those things--and yet there is apparently a right and a wrong way of acknowledging those things. Maybe putting not enough emphasis on what Christ did for us. The Galatians, for instance, never stopped acknowledging Christ's death and resurrection, but they certainly were " hindered... from obeying the truth" (Gal 5), so that they were "so quickly deserting Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ", and the issue was, in a sense, so that it applies here, an issue of good works, or sanctification ("having begun in the Spirit are you now being perfected by the flesh [works of the Law]?"). So, it seems it is possible to approach the issue of good works/sanctification (which would, in this view, pertain to both ongoing and ultimate justification) in such a way that results in unbelief, thus forfeiture of what Christ came for and was all about ("You have been severed from Christ..." Gal 5:4).