Does the Bible contradict itself? - Reader Poll (and discussion)

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Does the Bible contradicts itself?

  • The Bible could NEVER contradict itself.

    Votes: 10 41.7%
  • The Bible may SEEM to contradict itself at times.

    Votes: 7 29.2%
  • The Bible does contradict itself, which bothers me greatly.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Bible does contradict itself, which doesn't bother me at all.

    Votes: 7 29.2%
  • Not sure. The Bible might contradict itself. Worth looking into.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    24

RedFan

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2022
2,871
1,257
113
70
New Hampshire
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gal 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed iseveryone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is [d]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

I mean, I do not see how anyone can not read and see that No one means anyone. And how we could turn this around and say its not impossible.. I mean again, I just do not see it..

I also take us to John..

if we claim we have no sin we decieve ourselves. This is prety apposed to anyone who thinks they are sinless right now. Even John denied this and said if he claimed it he is decieved.

But it does not stop there.

if we say we have never sinned, we make God a liar.

so if we can not be sinless (perfect) how can we even think we could keep the law.

to me, a person who thinks this has not yet repented. He still thinks he has good in himself. Has this person become bankrupt in spirit yet?

Jesus said blessed are those who are poor in spirit (literally bancrupt) for theirs is the kingdom.

The tax collector was poor in spirit. The pharisee was not. the pharisee thought he kept the law. The tax collector truly understood the law.

God gave us a new law. The law of love. Seek after the things of the spirit. Everything hangs on the two great commands..

lets not put people back under law.. It was given to lead us to christ. Not make us better people..

It says do not do this. It does not tell us how to not do it. Nor does it give every possible way of breaking that law. Thats why Jesus had to see it is written,,do not commit adultry,, but I say.

Also remember, he sad at the end of just proving to everyone they could not keep the law. hey you want to keep doing it? be perfect As your father in heaven is perfect.

Thats what the law should do. Take us to our knees..
Well, let me elaborate on my view of the Galatian text so you can see where I am coming from.

Deut. 11:26 portrays the Law as both a blessing to those who keep it and a curse to those who don’t. Gal. 3:10 stresses that the curse follows a single slip-up (quoting Deut. 27:26). Gal. 3:11 tells us that justification does not come from the Law, and that life comes only from faith (quoting Hab. 2:4). But then Gal. 3:12 quotes Lev. 18:5, perhaps the leading OT passage suggesting that keeping the Law is what leads to life. (One finds this notion echoed in Ezek. 20:11, Prov. 19:16, Psalms of Solomon 14:1-5, Philo's Prelmininary Studies 86-87. even Matt. 19:16-17.) This strikes me as at worst contradictory, and at best a poor choice of Scripture in support of what I take to be Paul’s goal: dissuading the Galatians from turning to the Law instead of to faith for their salvation. If that were my agenda, Lev. 18:5 is the last verse I would quote!

Granted, Galatians never explicitly declares that nobody can keep the Law perfectly – perhaps because the “blessing” part of Deut. 11:26 makes that a questionable conclusion (see also Ps. 18:20-24), or perhaps because Paul himself elsewhere claimed to be “blameless” under the Law, Phil. 3:6 – but isn’t that exactly what he wants the “foolish Galatians” to infer? And, doesn’t his quote from Leviticus undercut him here?

Thus, a close reading of Galatians does not actually support that salvation is unavailable under the law. Rather, it supports “Don’t choose to play by those Rules, you foolish Galatians; for once you sign up for that, you’ll almost certainly fail to end up with the required perfect score – and thanks to Calvary, there is now an easier way, so why take the chance?”

This is why I mentioned the distinction between the Law’s innate inability to save, and mankind’s innate inability to keep the Law sufficiently to be saved (a la Rom. 2:1 - 3:20). On my reading, Galatians at best supports only the latter, although Christians everywhere seem to assume it supports the former. Someone may object that my distinction has no practical difference in effect. But if forgiveness when the Law is violated can reset the scoreboard, there is a HUGE practical difference. And that type of score reset is well attested in the OT.

I read Gal. 3:12 – and its analogue, Rom. 10:5 – to mean that salvation is available under the Law, provided one keeps it perfectly. (Calvin agrees: “The hope of eternal life is, therefore, given to all who keep the Law; for those who expound the passage as referring to this earthly and transitory life are mistaken.”) And difficult though it is, it is not an impossible task.

Who would be so bold as to declare that Luke 1:6 is a lie?
 

wooddog

Member
May 8, 2024
111
25
28
64
cleveland
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When did the fig tree wither?
Immediately when Jesus cursed it, or over night?
  • Matthew 21:19
    Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

  • Matthew 21:20
    When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

  • Mark 11:20
    In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots.

  • Mark 11:21
    Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

[
Thanks for the links, context is important.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,937
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree that the OT says a perfect score under the law is required in order to be saved by following it, but I disagree that Galatians says a perfect score is unachievable.
That's interesting.
How could a perfect score be achievable?

[
 

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
8,540
11,659
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's interesting.
How could a perfect score be achievable?

Paul claimed to be “blameless” under the Law, Phil. 3:6. Luke 1:6 says the same of Zechariah and Elizabeth.

Has everybody forgotten that Torah has sacrifices for sin?

(I guess the only reason anybody ever reads Leviticus is for THAT VERSE. You know which one I'm talking about.)
 

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
8,540
11,659
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's what I meant in mentioning resetting of the scoreboard being well attested in the OT.
This is also why I don't think Paul meant exactly what the Reformers and their successors thought he meant in his discussions of Torah ("The Law").
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, let me elaborate on my view of the Galatian text so you can see where I am coming from.

Deut. 11:26 portrays the Law as both a blessing to those who keep it and a curse to those who don’t. Gal. 3:10 stresses that the curse follows a single slip-up (quoting Deut. 27:26). Gal. 3:11 tells us that justification does not come from the Law, and that life comes only from faith (quoting Hab. 2:4). But then Gal. 3:12 quotes Lev. 18:5, perhaps the leading OT passage suggesting that keeping the Law is what leads to life. (One finds this notion echoed in Ezek. 20:11, Prov. 19:16, Psalms of Solomon 14:1-5, Philo's Prelmininary Studies 86-87. even Matt. 19:16-17.) This strikes me as at worst contradictory, and at best a poor choice of Scripture in support of what I take to be Paul’s goal: dissuading the Galatians from turning to the Law instead of to faith for their salvation. If that were my agenda, Lev. 18:5 is the last verse I would quote!

Granted, Galatians never explicitly declares that nobody can keep the Law perfectly – perhaps because the “blessing” part of Deut. 11:26 makes that a questionable conclusion (see also Ps. 18:20-24), or perhaps because Paul himself elsewhere claimed to be “blameless” under the Law, Phil. 3:6 – but isn’t that exactly what he wants the “foolish Galatians” to infer? And, doesn’t his quote from Leviticus undercut him here?

Thus, a close reading of Galatians does not actually support that salvation is unavailable under the law. Rather, it supports “Don’t choose to play by those Rules, you foolish Galatians; for once you sign up for that, you’ll almost certainly fail to end up with the required perfect score – and thanks to Calvary, there is now an easier way, so why take the chance?”

This is why I mentioned the distinction between the Law’s innate inability to save, and mankind’s innate inability to keep the Law sufficiently to be saved (a la Rom. 2:1 - 3:20). On my reading, Galatians at best supports only the latter, although Christians everywhere seem to assume it supports the former. Someone may object that my distinction has no practical difference in effect. But if forgiveness when the Law is violated can reset the scoreboard, there is a HUGE practical difference. And that type of score reset is well attested in the OT.

I read Gal. 3:12 – and its analogue, Rom. 10:5 – to mean that salvation is available under the Law, provided one keeps it perfectly. (Calvin agrees: “The hope of eternal life is, therefore, given to all who keep the Law; for those who expound the passage as referring to this earthly and transitory life are mistaken.”) And difficult though it is, it is not an impossible task.

Who would be so bold as to declare that Luke 1:6 is a lie?
Maybe we have semantics here?

If a person kept the law perfectly would that person need to be saved? (Except for the fact they are still under adam?). Well yeah. Adam kept the law. Until he did not.

I see it this way. There are two ways to get to heaven.

1. Keep the law perfectly (works)
2. Grace - Faith in Gods work

only one person kept the first way. His name was jesus.

He died so we could use the second way. Because we cannot =get their the first way
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,937
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Either way, the Law would be a path (albeit a difficult one) to salvation.
The same could be said for benevolence, I suppose.

Providing drink for the thirsty, food for the hungry, clothes for the naked, visiting those in prison and the infirmed.

[
 
  • Like
Reactions: RedFan

RedFan

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2022
2,871
1,257
113
70
New Hampshire
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Maybe we have semantics here?

If a person kept the law perfectly would that person need to be saved? (Except for the fact they are still under adam?). Well yeah. Adam kept the law. Until he did not.

I see it this way. There are two ways to get to heaven.

1. Keep the law perfectly (works)
2. Grace - Faith in Gods work

only one person kept the first way. His name was jesus.

He died so we could use the second way. Because we cannot =get their the first way
There is keeping the Law (Pharisaic formalism) and there is keeping the Law (in spirit). Jesus did the latter (and got chastised by the Pharisees for doing it). What do we say about Luke 1:6 then? That it is speaking of the former?
 

RedFan

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2022
2,871
1,257
113
70
New Hampshire
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The same could be said for benevolence, I suppose.

Providing drink for the thirsty, food for the hungry, clothes for the naked, visiting those in prison and the infirmed.

[
True. We can pick lots of snippets from the Sermon on the Mount to get us to the same spot. (My favorite is forgiveness by forgiving in Matt. 6:14 -- arguably yet another path to salvation.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,937
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is keeping the Law (Pharisaic formalism) and there is keeping the Law (in spirit). Jesus did the latter (and got chastised by the Pharisees for doing it). What do we say about Luke 1:6 then? That it is speaking of the former?
I think the "spirit of the law" idea is unfounded biblically. Law is law. Black and white. Obey, or disobey.
I know it is used in human society, but it is not a biblical idea. IMHO

[
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,937
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
True. We can pick lots of snippets from the Sermon on the Mount to get us to the same spot. (My favorite is forgiveness by forgiving in Matt. 6:14 -- arguably yet another path to salvation.)
It seems that salvation is a subject that is greatly misunderstood.
Considering the perceived importance, this seems tragic.

[
 

RedFan

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2022
2,871
1,257
113
70
New Hampshire
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think the "spirit of the law" idea is unfounded biblically. Law is law. Black and white. Obey, or disobey.
I know it is used in human society, but it is not a biblical idea. IMHO

[
That "black and white" view could paint Jesus as a lawbreaker.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen