Does the Bible contradict itself? - Reader Poll (and discussion)

[Ronald Nolette]

You failed to prove your point about the fig tree.

[

I believe I did. but you are free to think that God cannot protect His Word from contradictions. I spent years studying and looking at apparent contradictions and found they are all based on ourt lack of understanding and not a contradiction in the bible. And the language and verb construct of the fig tree account bears that out!

 

[Aunty Jane]

This casts the fruit of the tree of life as an antidote to cell deterioration, one which became a second forbidden fruit only after A&E partook of the first. We aren't told whether A&E ate from it prior to the Fall. If they did, its effects weren't permanent -- meaning it would have to be ingested regularly in order to keep the ingester's cells going indefinitely.

The tantalizing scientific details would have been lost on the Bible’s original audiences, so we can assume some things, now that we know the mechanisms of the cellular structure of the human body. How long did it take us to get there though? Only now in this “time of the end” has the human race progressed (?) to the point of using their scientific knowledge to actually threaten the existence of the entire human race and in fact all life forms….and leave the planet as a nuclear wasteland for who knows how long?

Can we trust world rulers not to take us there? Or can we trust God never to allow them to ever destroy his handiwork?

Rev 11:18….
”The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.” (ESV)

When God brought the flood in Noah’s day, he merely reset the human race who had been taken into wickedness way too soon by the interference of rebel angels materializing and producing wicked gigantic hybrid humans who were terrorizing the people and ruining mankind with their evil ways of wanton violence and immorality. God destroyed those wicked “Nephilim” and all the people who had adapted to the kind of life that they and their wicked fathers had created. And he forced their errant fathers back to the spirit realm, where he dealt with them.

He saved the only righteous people in existence and specimens of all the creatures he wanted to repopulate the earth. But how did he save them? He taught them how to save themselves, and it involved a monumental task that a lone man could never have accomplished by himself. Again it was a test of Noah’s faith, but he did all that he was asked to do, without question, and with God providing the help of his three sons, who were not even born at the time of his commissioning.
Just eight souls survived the end of that world….

But the reset was temporary because it was not the time to eliminate sin, and Messiah’s coming was yet a long way off. God is a time keeper and his schedule is set in concrete…..no human or angel can derail God’s purpose, though they can cause a detour that will still arrive at the same destination…and on time.

Rev 11:18 is speaking of “the end”….a time when all the nations are enraged, and gathered for the final war of Armageddon, we see that God had foretold a time when men would have the capacity to be “destroyers of the earth”….a capacity that they did not have when it was written.

It gives us confidence that the word of God can be relied upon in all the important ways, despite what some will pick as errors…..they are minor and not disrupting of the Bible’s overarching message……which is the coming of God’s Kingdom. (Matt 6:9-10) Nothing will stop its introduction as man’s only hope of a future perfect rulership…one that God had planned for the human race at the outset….

God’s rulership, once reinstated and orchestrated by his appointed King, Christ Jesus, will bring the human race back to God in reconciliation, so that his first purpose can become a reality…..with precedents set for all eternity, so that no free willed creature in the future, will ever get to implement a rebellion again…..not an angel or a human will ever be given an opportunity, because all the issues raised by the devil in Eden will have been settled, once and for all time….and free will remains the gift that God intended it to be.

Do you see a Two Paths analogy lurking here?

There have always been two paths…..free will was a gift, and the exercise of it unselfishly, would have been a blessing….but abuse of that gift, turned it into a curse. Was it a mistake to give his intelligent creatures free will?
NO! Because there is one thing that God can receive from his children that he cannot give himself…..LOVE. And loyalty and obedience proceeds from that love.

The Bible describes Yahweh as the epitome of love (John 4:24)…..he is a self-contained being perfect in every way….but at some stage in his eternal existence, he desired to share his love with creatures who could reciprocate and make it a mutual relationship. It’s the one thing God cannot force anyone to do…..he can force obedience, but not genuine heartfelt love. He has no desire to force anyone to do what is against their will. But he is testing the human race as well as his angelic family to find those who will obey him out of love…not out of fear of a penalty.

The only humans and angels who will survive this incredible object lesson are those who see past the devil’s schemes to undermine our faith and confidence in the Creator’s purpose, and who fail to appreciate that free will must have limits if it is to benefit all, rather than just the one to whom the gift is given. Every single act of wickedness is the improper use of free will. It’s power must be used responsibly.

To see the big picture and understand why God chose to do things this way, is to bring our own will into harmony with his, because we all want the same thing….to live in a beautiful world, free of worry or strife and to appreciate all the gifts given to us, living within the parameters set for us, without questioning them.

God’s will must be done…..our will is secondary to his because there is no wickedness in him. All that he has ever asked of his children is willing obedience because he has no ulterior motives….He wants only good things for us, and asks so little in return for what he has provided for all his children.

When God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”…..only then will we be truly happy to have both realms of God’s Kingdom in full harmony with each other.

Can you grasp this concept?

 

[RedFan]

See what I mean. You make the Bible unreliable. I mean who can have faith or hope with your bible?

I have both faith and hope in my Bible, because (1) I neither expect nor care about the truth or falsity of irrelevant details that do not matter to the message of the Bible, and (2) I reject the notion that human error as to those details calls the entire message of the Bible into question.

But I won't make excuses for the factual errors. You need to. I don't. If I ask you whether Jesus sent his apostles out with sandals and staff (Mark 6:8-9) or without them (Matt. 10:10), you will tell me “The gospels must have been describing two different missions.” And if I ask where the “must have” comes from, you will tell me that the consistency of Scripture is a given. How do I know this will be your response? Simple. It’s a slippery slope thing with you. It’s a Luke 16:10 thing. Most of us would not be scandalized in the least by one of two gospel authors getting a theologically-irrelevant detail wrong. But you demand literal historical truth on every detail, however minor, because for you, there aren’t two gospel authors. There is only one, and He cannot err.

Even for you, it doesn't matter whether the disciples were sent out with or without sandals for a particular mission. You don’t care which instruction was given, any more than you care whether the law requires driving on the left or on the right side of the road. But you care deeply that only one instruction was given at a time, for otherwise your world would be as chaotic as a world in which the law allowed driving on both sides of the road. If the texts of two gospels give two different answers to any question―even to the issue of apostolic footwear―you are desperate that one of them be explained away.

Sorry, but I do not see the point. I expect theological truth from my Bible, not factual accuracy on minute historical details. And I am not scandalized by inaccuracies as to the latter. If you are, so be it. Don't make that MY problem.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Perhaps @Eternally Grateful should chew on this syllogism for a while:

Major Premise: God is not the author of confusion. (1 Cor. 14:33)
Minor Premise: The Bible is confusing.
Conclusion: God is not the author of the Bible.

Anyone want to wager on which premise gets rejected?

Well there is another conclusion IMHO…..The Bible is not confusing at all for those who really study it. Those who merely read in bits and pieces as Christendom does, to seemingly confirm their own doctrines and theology, will always find it confusing, and seemingly contradictory….as you said minor details are not really important to the message.

God is the author of this work, using many secretaries over many centuries and maintaining a level of internal harmony that no work of man could ever achieve.

The one element missing is that God is the one who reveals his truth to whomever he wishes, and without him doing so confusion reigns. But why would he do that?

He is choosing us as much as we think we are choosing him…or even trying to make him fit our own version of him….trying to squeeze him into a mold of our own making….

Jesus said in John 6:44….”No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him”…..so unless “drawn” by the Father, no one will come to the son in accurate knowledge….

Jesus went on to give his infamous speech about “eating his flesh and drinking his blood”….some were so appalled at the mere mention of this that they left off from following him…..he saw that his apostles were shocked also and asked them…”Does this stumble you? 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning those who did not believe and the one who would betray him. 65 He went on to say: “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

If not granted by the Father, who is a ‘reader of hearts’, no one can come to the son, even though they may think they have. God will not interfere with our free willed choices……we are free to make them based on what is in our hearts. If we make the wrong choice, then he will not correct us unless he sees potential in us, then and only then will he reveal his truth, but even that is no guarantee that we will be obedient to God’s will. Even perfect sinless beings have made bad choices despite knowing the truth.

All decisions about our eternal future are being made by God because he knows what is in our hearts…(1Chron 28:9)…..The trouble is, we may not know what that treacherous thing is capable of doing to us. (Jeremiah 17:9) It is a strong influence in our decisions and actions.

 

[Wick Stick]

You want to cause doubt in the word of God feel free

Ok. I mean... that isn't my purpose, here.

I'm really just trying to have a dialogue and talk through some things with others.

 

[Wick Stick]

Well there is another conclusion IMHO…..The Bible is not confusing at all for those who really study it.

I don't think that one's gonna work. Have you seen the state of Biblical academia?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't think that one's gonna work. Have you seen the state of Biblical academia?

I have, and I grew up with all those beliefs that made no sense to me…..that’s why my beliefs come from Scripture alone, not simply Christendom’s contradictory explanation of it.

The Bible explains itself if we stop allowing human errors to color our own view. As Jesus says…in John 6:44, 65….”No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him”……no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father”.

So it really does matter what we ‘choose’ to believe…..and whether what we ‘choose’ to believe, is the truth. If God is not ‘drawing’ us…someone else is…the one who wants us to be disobedient, because disobedience is what separates us from God. He has a propaganda machine working overtime 24/7.

There is one doctrine alone that gives the devil the victory, and that is the one that defines who God is in relation to his son. (John 17:3)
This is a salvation issue, because if that doctrine is false, then the whole of Christendom is no better off than all the pagan religions of the world who worship gods who are not Yahweh.

To put any other god in place of the Father is a breach of the first Commandment (Exodus 20:3)…..and the Israelites were punished for their excursions into the worship of false gods. Their one God was Yahweh and he tolerated no rivals or equals. (Deut 6:4)
Christendom’s primary doctrine is not based on Scripture at all, but on twisted and ambiguous verses designed to mislead people into false worship. The devil can masquerade as “an angel of light” and he has willing minions who will perpetuate his lies as truth, most of them unwittingly.

Should we ever underestimate the power that the devil exercises in this world under his control? (1 John 5:19; Luke 5:5-7) He has had millenniums to perfect his craft, and he has no new tricks…all the old tried and true methods have worked successfully for him all through human history….because humans have a short memory, a sinful nature, and never seem to learn the lessons from the past.

All the mistakes are recorded for our benefit, (Rom 15:4) but are we listening?

 

[th1b.taylor]

So, I've been told. Trouble is, that is NOT what the text says. Inserting the word "spiritually" is not right.

I do not insert but merely explain to some that appear to lack wisdom in the matter. To a person filled with Ruah the Bible is filled with Spiritual Facts as is this line in said book.

 

[Wrangler]

OK….my claim that Adam and Eve were never immortal is because to suggest otherwise, meant that the penalty for eating the forbidden fruit was a lie. Immortals cannot die...

I know you had a well developed answer.

 

[St. SteVen]

I believe I did. but you are free to think that God cannot protect His Word from contradictions.

Why does the Bible need protection from contradictions?
Contradictions verify the reliability of the Bible.

I spent years studying and looking at apparent contradictions and found they are all based on ourt lack of understanding and not a contradiction in the bible. And the language and verb construct of the fig tree account bears that out!

Hogwash.

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

I know you had a well developed answer.

I am content with nothing less….this is what deep Bible study gives you….answers, not doubts.

 

[Wick Stick]

Should we ever underestimate the power that the devil exercises in this world under his control? (1 John 5:19; Luke 5:5-7) He has had millenniums to perfect his craft, and he has no new tricks…all the old tried and true methods have worked successfully for him all through human history….because humans have a short memory, a sinful nature, and never seem to learn the lessons from the past.

All the mistakes are recorded for our benefit, (Rom 15:4) but are we listening?

We have very different worldviews. My understanding of things is that the devil was defeated long ago. People still do bad things because they want to, not because they are deceived.

 

[Aunty Jane]

We have very different worldviews. My understanding of things is that the devil was defeated long ago.

Can I ask you why you believe this? Is there scriptural backing for this idea? As a devoted Bible student, I have never seen this defeat….except spiritually, in the case of those who have defeated the devil in their own life…but it doesn’t make him go away…any more than it did when he tempted Jesus. (Luke 4:13)

People still do bad things because they want to, not because they are deceived.

Can you give us scriptural evidence for this belief also? The Bible is one story, and the devil features in it right to the end of the story. In what way do you believe he was defeated apart from what I have mentioned….? And what is the reason why you believe that people are no longer deceived.

When you look at the state of the world, can you not see the reason why God must step in and rectify the damage that the devil has done to the entire human race? If he does not do so soon, there will be no one left to save….we will all have had our brains turned to mush…..have you not noticed that so many are losing their memory????? Not just old people!

 

[Wrangler]

I have never seen this defeat….except spiritually, in the case of those who have defeated the devil in their own life…but it doesn’t make him go away…any more than it did when he tempted Jesus. (Luke 4:13)

This exchange show cases the propensity for people to incorrectly categorize things as a contradiction. A contradiction is when 2 things cannot both be true at the same time and context. In this case, we are talking about 2 things that CAN be true at the same time, which is not a contradiction; the devil was defeated by Jesus and still roams around.

Given that the devil is a spiritual being, I'm not really sure what other kind of defeat he could suffer other than spiritual defeat. Anyway, point is, if we compare to prize fighters, the same is true. They can be defeated and still roam around.

This is another example that I was guarding against earlier, about taking the meaning of Scripture outside the context in which the words were given.

 

[Wick Stick]

Can I ask you why you believe this? Is there scriptural backing for this idea? As a devoted Bible student, I have never seen this defeat….except spiritually, in the case of those who have defeated the devil in their own life…but it doesn’t make him go away…any more than it did when he tempted Jesus. (Luke 4:13)

Yes, the idea that the devil has been defeated is certainly defensible from Scripture. A few verses are below that say so pretty cleanly.

Hebrews 2:14-18
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He [Jesus] also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

I think an idea throughout the New Testament is that Jesus' resurrection is evidence that He defeated Satan. The 'gates of hell' haven't prevailed, the 'captives are set free' and 'captivity is led captive.' There is plenty in Revelation about satan's ultimate defeat which appears to be yet future... but take note that the current state of things in the book is that satan is already bound, and he is only to be loosed for 'a little while' during the Tribulation. I don't know your eschatology, but unless you think that NOW is the Tribulation, satan is no longer a player.

Can you give us scriptural evidence for this belief also?

The idea that people are naturally bad? I think that's pretty much through the whole book.

Adam had his apple, and mankind was wiped out for wickedness in Noah's day. AFTER the flood, God said, "man's heart is evil from his youth." After that we have Israel making an idol at the base of Mt. Sinai and receiving the Law, which they then proceed to fail to keep for basically the rest of the Old Testament. John is beheaded, Jesus is crucified, and Paul says "all have sinned" and speaks of the evils of the "natural" man. This one is kind of a slam dunk... Are there Christians who don't believe that mankind does evil as his natural state?

And what is the reason why you believe that people are no longer deceived.

No longer deceived... by the devil. We do plenty to deceive each other.

When you look at the state of the world, can you not see the reason why God must step in and rectify the damage that the devil has done to the entire human race?

When I look at the state of the world, I don't see that all that is wrong is because of the devil. People appear to be the cause of most wickedness.

If he does not do so soon, there will be no one left to save….we will all have had our brains turned to mush…..have you not noticed that so many are losing their memory????? Not just old people!

Didn't you just say that?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Notice you had to ADD SOMETHING TO THE BIBLE to resolve the contradiction?

Why is it necessary to add to the Bible?

what did I add?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why does the Bible need protection from contradictions?
Contradictions verify the reliability of the Bible.

No they trample the reliability if there were any. YOu have yet to bring a contradiction that is truly a contradiction.

Once again the bible was written over the course of 2000 years and from 2 languages and 2 cultures that viewed things in a vastly different way than 21st century man does in many things. Our understanding also is different than theirs in many areas. An English bible does not bring out the full sense of what was said many times because it merely picks out the best word. It suffers because the Greek said more with verb endings than with words. We use many words to full y describe while the Gree Koine used a verb structure.

Hogwash.

Well as you were not with me over the past 50 years and did not see the study I have done on apparent contradictions of Gods word, I chalk up you rcomment to ignorance.

 

[St. SteVen]

YOu have yet to bring a contradiction that is truly a contradiction.

When did the fig tree wither?
Immediately when Jesus cursed it, or over night?

• Matthew 21:19
  Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
  
  
• Matthew 21:20
  When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
  
  
• Mark 11:20
  In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots.
  
  
• Mark 11:21
  Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

[

 

[Ronald Nolette]

When did the fig tree wither?
Immediately when Jesus cursed it, or over night?

• Matthew 21:19
  Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
  
  
• Matthew 21:20
  When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
  
  
• Mark 11:20
  In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots.
  
  
• Mark 11:21
  Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

[

And once again I showed you from the Greek why this is not a contradiction.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And once again I showed you from the Greek why this is not a contradiction.

Sadly you can keep showing them. They will not relent. Or repent