Whilst it's true mankind possess 'a will' to choose, period. Can it be argued from scripture that it's free and what is free from a biblical point of view when considering sin and righteousness?
Does man posses a "free will" before salvation?
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Are you sure we are free to sin as much as we want? Is this supported by scripture. In any case this general statement doesn't address the central question. :)BiggAndyy said:
Free to sin? What do you mean by free? We will most certainly sin and maybe sin notoriously but does that mean we're are free in sinning?
We naturally sin because of the fall and there is no measuring line to determine another alternative other than the Law. Romans 4:15. When the law is applied, it gives us an understanding of the condition of our heart. Romans 3:20.
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:17-18
Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Shalom!
It depends on your definition of free. There are only two alternatives. We are either free in regard to righteousness which leads to death or free in regards to sin, leading to eternal life. Romans 6:20-22.
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:17-18
Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Shalom!
Abel was righteous.
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Cain was wicked.
Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
1Jn_3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Yet God said this to Cain...
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
If Cain did not have the ability of free agency with which to choose to work evil or to work good then God is taunting him.
The Bible clearly teaches we all have free will. Free will carries with it responsibility and therefore God holds us accountable for our deeds.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Cain was wicked.
Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
1Jn_3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Yet God said this to Cain...
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
If Cain did not have the ability of free agency with which to choose to work evil or to work good then God is taunting him.
The Bible clearly teaches we all have free will. Free will carries with it responsibility and therefore God holds us accountable for our deeds.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Angelina said:
So true, we do naturally sin. I think this points to the fact that whilst we have a will it's not a free will. In terms of God's economy, which is the only true world view one can hold. Freedom is defined as loosened from the power of sin unto righteousness. So by that very definition no one has free will, just a will before they come to Christ. :)
Was Abel's sacrifice as filthy rags before God?BiggAndyy said:
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
What about the walk of the parents of John the Baptist. Were their deeds as filthy rags?
Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
What about Enoch? Were his deeds as filthy rags before God?
Gen_5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Heb_11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Please consider the context of Isa 64:6...
Isa 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,
Isa 64:2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!
Isa 64:3 When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.
Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
Isa 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isa 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Isa 64:9 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.
Isa 64:10 Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.
Isa 64:11 Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste.
Isa 64:12 Wilt thou refrain thyself for these things, O LORD? wilt thou hold thy peace, and afflict us very sore?
Isaiah is offering up a prayer to God and is speaking generally of Israel for they had not remembered His way and it was in this state that all "their righteousness was as filthy rags."
When men establish their own standard of righteousness apart from God's standard then it is that righteousness which is as filthy rags. Isaiah is not teaching that the best efforts of men is as filthy rags, that is nonsense.
So many people quote verses of the Bible like this completely out of context in order to support an unbiblical premise.
Oh I believe that people have a free will brother, they just do not have many choices when it applies to salvation.
You can not hide your heart and mind from the LORD Jer 20:12
Jer 17:10
1 Sam 16:7
1 Chr 28:9
Proverbs 15:3
Jer 17:10
1 Sam 16:7
1 Chr 28:9
Proverbs 15:3
ScottAU said:
I'm not claiming man has NO will, just that it's not free. Abel clearly followed God's instruction i.e he was a man of FAITH. Just as rahab the Harlot was. Quoting a scripture like that in isolation does not do justice to it's context and the wider picture. Your other scriptures are superfluous as they don't in themselves add anything to the argument of free will, they just infer according to your arrangement.ScottAU said:
Abel was a believer as was Rahab and are counted as one of the elect, just as Abraham was. If you wish to infer by this that that proves they can choose salvation at their own whim and will then you will have to struggle with what Jesus said in regards to this.
Murmur not among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Ok, frogman. :) Just out of curiosity, who were they?Butch5 said:
BiggAndyy said:
That one went over your head, Scott. BA was referring to the fact that moral deeds esteemed by man are filthy unrighteousness in GOD's eyes. Of course, you are clueless to that reality because you confuse morality with righteousness.ScottAU said:
Obviously, all of the holy ones you mentioned were operating in faith, and not doing their own works.
Thanks for responding. I appreciate where you're coming from. :)Angelina said:
So he does and will, brother. :)Rex said:
Angelina andJB_Reformed Baptist said:
Romans 6:22 really hits the nail on the head
[SIZE=80%]20 [/SIZE]When you were slaves to sin,[SIZE=80%]i[/SIZE] you were free from the control of righteousness.[SIZE=80%]j[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]21 [/SIZE]What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death![SIZE=80%]k[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]22 [/SIZE]But now that you have been set free from sin[SIZE=80%]l[/SIZE] and have become slaves of God,[SIZE=80%]m[/SIZE] John 6:44 Jer 17:10 ---->>>>the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life
Indeed this scripture Romans 6:22 KJV supports the thesis that there is NO FREE WILL and hence not a free man amongst us, before coming to Christ.Rex said:
Yep, we have put it together. John 6:44 and Jer 17:10 fit like a glove and Romans 6:22 looks ahead, it only took three of us.
[SIZE=80%]22 [/SIZE]But now that you have been set free from sin[SIZE=80%]l[/SIZE] and have become slaves of God, ( John 6:44 <<-->> Jer 17:10 )---->>>>the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life
[SIZE=80%]22 [/SIZE]But now that you have been set free from sin[SIZE=80%]l[/SIZE] and have become slaves of God, ( John 6:44 <<-->> Jer 17:10 )---->>>>the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life
Rex said:
Rex said:
It's good to see you entirely support my argument Rex. After all it's revealed in the word of God for all to see. Those who cannot see or fathom what is being put forward needs to seek the LORD for assistance.
You can hang a label on it if you like and many men can't resist the temptation but I'm not necessarily supporting free will or slave or every mans an island.
It's simply the means that God uses to draw men into salvation. the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought
The longer I spend on this site the more harmful and abrasive I realize labels can be, you are ether for me or against me, Matthew 12:30-31
for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; 1Chr 28:9
It's simply the means that God uses to draw men into salvation. the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought
The longer I spend on this site the more harmful and abrasive I realize labels can be, you are ether for me or against me, Matthew 12:30-31
for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; 1Chr 28:9
i have thought long and hard concerning this subject and have come up with that whether person has a free will all depends upon how you yourself define free will.
if you look at free will as a total free will where we can choose our own destinies no matter what then according to the bible we don't have a complete free will because we Jesus says we will either serve God or satan but not both. if it were possible then we could live without both God and satan but according to the Word we are either serving God's kingdom or satan's kingdom whether we realize it or not. then no we don't have a free will.
if you look at free will as being a rational person who is able to make their own decisions then yes we have a free will.
God bless
if you look at free will as a total free will where we can choose our own destinies no matter what then according to the bible we don't have a complete free will because we Jesus says we will either serve God or satan but not both. if it were possible then we could live without both God and satan but according to the Word we are either serving God's kingdom or satan's kingdom whether we realize it or not. then no we don't have a free will.
if you look at free will as being a rational person who is able to make their own decisions then yes we have a free will.
God bless
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