Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Ronald Nolette]

What is God revealing to us here through Paul?
1. The Gentiles did not have the Ten Commandments.
2. The Ten Commandments were written in their hearts.
3. The conscience is where those commandments are written.
4. Ordinary human nature has the conscience built into it.
5. The unsaved can do righteous deeds when following their conscience.
6. The conscience will either excuse or accuse.

Men are sinners by nature inherited from Adam. But all men are not evil, as you presume. Five Point Calvinism ignores what is actually in the Bible, in order to concoct its own version of the Gospel.

all men are evil. god says our good works are filthy rags, and from the sole of the foot to the top of the head there is no soundness in man.

Paul also in romans says there are none righteous- then emphasizes it- NO NOT ONE.

And as for the conscience of man? It cannot lead Him to salvation. It has no capacity to discern spiritual things for the unsaved man is spiritually dead!

And as for the comparison of conscience vs. the written law, Paul concludes that thought with this:

romans 2: 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

and also:

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Man may not act as evil as they can, but they are as lost as they can be!

 

[Scott Downey]

There are many deceivers, you will know them by the things they say.

 

[farouk]

@Ronald Nolette

"All of grace, yes, grace surpassing,
Such a portion to bestow,
But the love, all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.

Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the Tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow,
With the loved ones, you and me."

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Calvinists I have dealt with wrongly claim the election of Jacob was about his being automatically, unconditionally saved and the non-election of Esau was about his elected to unconditionally, automatically being lost. Whereby neither man had any say so in their own salvation or condemnation for God chose that for them.
But the election was about which descendants Christ would come from and God chose Jacob/Israel and not Esau/Edomites but that did not mean unconditional, automatic salvation for Jacob/Israel as it did not mean unconditional, automatic condemnation for Esau/Edomites. The idea of Calvinism salvation by election cannot be found in the text, it is assumed into the text.

that has what I have been saying for many posts now! People have all sorts of concepts because we are all at different levels of growth and understanding in the word.

I will tell you this, many have tried to pigeon hole me into some belief system like "calvinism" or dispensationalism" etc. and fail. I am a biblicist and do all I can to get my marching orders from teh Word. I have done enormous studies on may systems in christendom, but those days now are gone.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ephesians 1 makes it clear that the believer's election is entirely according to God's grace: sovereign, electing grace with no admixture of human merit or fleshly cooperation.

There is nothing in Ephesians 1 about God foreknowing certain individuals and then unconditionally electing those certain individuals to salvation.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

The context does show God foreknew a group ("us") that is CONDITIONALLY "in Him". That foreknown group being Christians and God foreknew certain traits/blessing the group would possess ("in Him" and being "holy and without blame"). God foreknew the type of work this group would be involved in Ephesians 2:10. Therefore ANYONE that chooses to obey the gospel of Christ becomes a Christian, becomes part of this foreknown group possessing these foreknow traits. There is nothing in the context at all about God foreknowing certain individuals and saving them apart from being in Christ. There is no such thing in the Bible as a chosen individual separate an apart from conditionally being in Christ, apart from conditionally being in the group. Since it teaches corporate election then each man is culpable for being the foreknow group or not and can justly, rightly be held accountable for not being in the foreknown group. Being in the group is not by some random lottery that took place before the world began with some people lucky to be chosen by God to be in the group and rest left outside the group and lost.

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 2, if you believe the scriptures, is simply saying the gentiles are a LAW unto themeselves, God's law written on their hearts. Well by the LAW of GOD is the knowledge of SIN. They will know they are sinners when they are judged, then they will either try to excuse themselves to God, like Adam and Eve did, passing the blame for what they did to someone else, or accuse themselves as sinners in the hands of a just God.

Enoch111 says they will be judged and be able to live in Heaven and be saved without being BORN AGAIN. That is pure ANTICHRIST.

Better not try to argue with God. Tell God I sinned because blah blah blah, you did this to me God. Someone else made me sin.
Genesis 3
11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”

12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”

13 And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

 

[farouk]

There is nothing in Ephesians 1 about God foreknowing certain individuals and then unconditionally electing those certain individuals to salvation.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

The context does show God foreknew a group ("us") that is CONDITIONALLY "in Him". That foreknown group being Christians and God foreknew certain traits/blessing the group would possess ("in Him" and being "holy and without blame"). God foreknew the type of work this group would be involved in Ephesians 2:10. Therefore ANYONE that chooses to obey the gospel of Christ becomes a Christian, becomes part of this foreknown group possessing these foreknow traits. There is nothing in the context at all about God foreknowing certain individuals and saving them apart from being in Christ. There is no such thing in the Bible as a chosen individual separate an apart from conditionally being in Christ, apart from conditionally being in the group. Since it teaches corporate election then each man is culpable for being the foreknow group or not and can justly, rightly be held accountable for not being in the foreknown group. Being in the group is not by some random lottery that took place before the world began with some people lucky to be chosen by God to be in the group and rest left outside the group and lost.

Ephesians 2.1-7:

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."


It really is all of grace, with no admixture of human merit or fleshly cooperation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

that has what I have been saying for many posts now! People have all sorts of concepts because we are all at different levels of growth and understanding in the word.

I will tell you this, many have tried to pigeon hole me into some belief system like "calvinism" or dispensationalism" etc. and fail. I am a biblicist and do all I can to get my marching orders from teh Word. I have done enormous studies on may systems in christendom, but those days now are gone.

Post 190 you posted "Biut the other verses cited in Romans 90 is about election and salvation!"

The election of Jacob and Israel in Rom 9 was NOT about their salvation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ephesians 2.1-7:

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."


It really is all of grace, with no admixture of human merit or fleshly cooperation.

Nothing in the context says those Ephesians had no role in their own salvation. The context shows that before they became Christians they habitually walked in sin, it speaks nothing to how they were born.

Ephesians 1:1-7 says those Ephesians were "In Christ" a few times and baptism is the only away to be in Christ, hence those Ephesians chose to be baptized (Acts of the Apostles 19:5).

They were saved through faith Ephesians 2:8
Eph 2:8---------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1 Pet 3:21-----baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Just one way to be saved then their faith included being baptized.

Ephesians 5:26 they had been cleansed by "washing of water", a clear reference to having been water baptized for remission of sin.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There is nothing in Ephesians 1 about God foreknowing certain individuals and then unconditionally electing those certain individuals to salvation.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

The context does show God foreknew a group ("us") that is CONDITIONALLY "in Him". That foreknown group being Christians and God foreknew certain traits/blessing the group would possess ("in Him" and being "holy and without blame"). God foreknew the type of work this group would be involved in Ephesians 2:10. Therefore ANYONE that chooses to obey the gospel of Christ becomes a Christian, becomes part of this foreknown group possessing these foreknow traits. There is nothing in the context at all about God foreknowing certain individuals and saving them apart from being in Christ. There is no such thing in the Bible as a chosen individual separate an apart from conditionally being in Christ, apart from conditionally being in the group. Since it teaches corporate election then each man is culpable for being the foreknow group or not and can justly, rightly be held accountable for not being in the foreknown group. Being in the group is not by some random lottery that took place before the world began with some people lucky to be chosen by God to be in the group and rest left outside the group and lost.

SORRY BUT IT IS PEOPLE AND NOT SOME AMORPHOUS GROUP!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Post 190 you posted "Biut the other verses cited in Romans 90 is about election and salvation!"

The election of Jacob and Israel in Rom 9 was NOT about their salvation.

wE ARE DONE! I HAVE TOLD YOU THAT 1/2 DOZEN TIMES NOW AND YOU JUST DON'T READ MY POSTS! HAVE THE LAST WORD, I WON'T RESPOND

 

[farouk]

Nothing in the context says those Ephesians had no role in their own salvation. The context shows that before they became Christians they habitually walked in sin, it speaks nothing to how they were born.

Ephesians 1:1-7 says those Ephesians were "In Christ" a few times and baptism is the only away to be in Christ, hence those Ephesians chose to be baptized (Acts of the Apostles 19:5).

They were saved through faith Ephesians 2:8
Eph 2:8---------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1 Pet 3:21-----baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Just one way to be saved then their faith included being baptized.

Ephesians 5:26 they had been cleansed by "washing of water", a clear reference to having been water baptized for remission of sin.

No.

They had been 'dead in trespasses and in sins' before grace intervened. And I don't believe in baptismal regeneration; the washing of water was by the Word.

 

[Scott Downey]

No.

They had been 'dead in trespasses and in sins' before grace intervened. And I don't believe in baptismal regeneration; the washing of water was by the Word.

So true. Exactly, all need to read how it speaks the truth here
Many do not believe the scriptures
Titus 3
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[brightfame52]

Anyone can obey God if they so choose. Disobedience, carnal mind, is a willful choice and not a necessity based upon how one is born. As long as one continues (present tense) pursuing carnal things he cannot be submissive to God's will...can't serve God and mammon at the same time... it's one or the other. Yet one can repent and become submissive to God's law. It's all a matter free will choice, not by some depraved nature one is born with. Paul does not speak about how men are born in Romans 8 but speaks to how men choose to set their minds. Men can rightly, justly be held accountable for what he chooses to set his mind on and not how he was innately born.

You are going against scripture truth, and putting much confidence in the flesh.

 

[brightfame52]

Without Gods interposition no man can come to Jesus Christ, meaning believe n Him Jn 6:44,65 and agreeably without the same of the Son no man can know or come to the Father Jn 14:6

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Without God, His Grace and Spirit no man even seeks after the True God, man doesnt have even the slightest inkling of desire for the One and True God, and in fact is ignorant of Him and for all intents and purposes without any hope regarding God, the True God. Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[brightfame52]

No man naturally can believe on Christ nor even believe in the True God, for what saith the scripture Lk 10:21-22

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Now to call upon the name of Jesus for Salvation as per Rom 10, the person must know who the Son is to believe Him Rom 10:14

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

There can be no true calling upon Christ without Faith and the knowledge of who He is and what He accomplished and for whom. Yet Jesus reveals that naturally "no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father"

So who Christ is in His True Glorious Person must be revealed to a man as it was to Peter here Matt 16:16-17

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

See Peter was Blessed, he didnt know who Jesus Christ really was by natural man ability but by Divine revelation.

 

[Scott Downey]

And those Christ and God will to know Christ, only they are the ones who believe.
God predestined us for a reason, so that the family of God would exist and grow.
He brings many sons to glory.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Then Hebrews 2, all the sons, people and children mentioned here are those God has given to Christ. NO ONE ELSE is qualified by the Father to come to Christ, except for those the Father has granted to come to Christ. All things are of God, All things are for Him, and in Him all things consist.

10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, 12 saying,

“I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”

13 And again,

“I will put my trust in him.”

And again,

“Behold, I and the children God has given me.”

14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
(recall In Isaac your seed shall be those He calls to be saved, and no one else are helped, as in no one else gets saved)

17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (His brothers only)
(recall Christ is OUR HIGH PRIEST and no one else's) Christ is not the high priest of those of the world. So the people mentioned here are the people of God, of whom He is their high priest. And Christ makes His propitiating sacrifice to turn the wrath of God away only for the people of God. Only their sins are forgiven and no one else's sin, Jesus saves us from the wrath of God to come onto the world.

18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

 

[brightfame52]

Mike Mcinnis writes:

David said, “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.” (Psa 14:1). A cursory reading of what David is saying, might lead one to believe that he is describing an Atheist, i.e.; one who denies the existence of GOD. Yet a more in depth look at the man he is describing, leads us to understand that he is actually recounting the state of the natural man who is in rebellion against GOD. For he goes on to describe the condition of all men by nature as they spring from the loins of their father, Adam. “They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.” (Psa 14:1)

He further develops this truth, saying, “The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” (Psa 14:2-3) Paul quotes the same passage in his epistle to the Romans, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” (Rom 3:10-12) Grace Gazette Volume 17 Issue 6

Man naturally doesnt seek the True God, we are by nature practical atheist when it comes to the True God.

 

[brightfame52]

All those whom the Father draws to His Son, the same God teaches them Jn 6:44-45

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

And the teaching of them will be successful and so they will hear and learn of Him.

This being taught is a spiritual teaching and its foretold from the prophets Isa 54:13

And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Its Gods Spiritual teaching 1 Cor 2:13

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Taken]

Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?
OP ^

Natural? No. Man is the created body of dust.
Ability? Yes. Man was given a soul, with Gods Breath of Life.