Orthodoxy says "The Law" (however you consider it) does not apply today, at all. How do you see it? Why are any commands even mentioned in the New Testament?
Does "LAW" matter?
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What do you mean by the 'Law'?
Jesus said that not even punctuation marks were going to be removed from the'Law', he also said that he came to fulfill the 'Law'.
The 10C tell us what God expects of us and shows us when/where we are failing.
For Christians the big command is the one Jesus gave us to Love others as he loves us.
Jesus said that not even punctuation marks were going to be removed from the'Law', he also said that he came to fulfill the 'Law'.
The 10C tell us what God expects of us and shows us when/where we are failing.
For Christians the big command is the one Jesus gave us to Love others as he loves us.
Are you saying, then, that the other "laws" (pick any divine commandment) don't apply to us because Jesus fulfilled them all?
For instance, just to name two of hundreds, does it matter if we use dishonest scales in commerce? (Shave just a few cents on each sale?) Or are we allowed (by God) to extract absorbent interest rates on a loan? (Just a "little" above the going rate.)
That statement to "love others as we love ourselves" is often used to supposedly cover just about anything and everything. But, even right inside in our own churches, there are multiple interpretations of what THAT verse means.
See HERE for dishonest scales: 10 Bible verses about Balances, Dishonest Use
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Helen
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Why do you use supposedly?
Obviously that smacks at not believing what Jesus said when He said but seeing things as a cop out.
:- Matt 22
36 "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
IF people use as you say .."does it matter if we use dishonest scales in commerce?" Answer, simple...they do NOT LOVE.
If there is sin in the church, they do not love.
Believe it or not...LOVE IS THE ANSWER.
It is the answer to all law, therefore, if "sin is the transgression of the law..."
Then "love will never fail.."1 Cor 13. Love keeps the law.
Love does NO harm.
You usually read more carefully than that. I explained, right after saying that remark, that "even right inside in our own churches, there are multiple interpretations of what THAT verse means." And those interpretations often come straight from the pulpit.Why do you use supposedly?
Obviously that smacks at not believing what Jesus said when He said but seeing things as a cop out.
:- Matt 22
36 "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
IF people use as you say .."does it matter if we use dishonest scales in commerce?" Answer, simple...they do NOT LOVE.
If there is sin in the church, they do not love.
Believe it or not...LOVE IS THE ANSWER.
It is the answer to all law, therefore, if "sin is the transgression of the law..."
Then "love will never fail.."1 Cor 13. Love keeps the law.
Love does NO harm.
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"Love is the answer."? One man says: "I love you, so I will not confront you since you feel you're in God's will." Another says: "I love you, so I will stand with the Westboro mob, and hold a sign in protest at your son's military funeral."
Is there a chance many of us may not have too good of an idea what that "love" actually is.... the love we are saying takes care of everything?
Is there a chance many of us may not have too good of an idea what that "love" actually is.... the love we are saying takes care of everything?
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Helen
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As "believing believers "...we should by now know and understand which Love God is speaking about...
Pick one...I love my cat, I love my dog, I love my kids, I love sunny days,
I love ice-cream, ....
................I love God!
God is still asking the question of us....
Appreciate you posting this discussion.
The love which changes the hearts and the world...starts with each of us individually.
We as His body, are still falling short.
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Well, some people don't appreciate it. :) But, I am not trying to say anything, one way or another. I am just saying that there are so many laws that we honestly know we SHOULD be living by in our daily lives, that instead, we just totally dismiss (despite Jesus often saying to obey His commands) any need to even acknowledge their relevance in today's world.
Helen
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I am sure that I am older than you :)
So I can say " I used to think like that.."
But rather than reflect at the end of the day "Did I break any laws?"
All I have to ask myself is - " Was my day motivated by love?...did I sin against love?"
Sadly, I find that the older I get the more I find people and things irritating!
I'm not sure what the root of irritation is....but it isn't love.
The root is probably 'self' or self righteousness...I have never searched it out...maybe I don't really want to know the answer
PS..I just checked your age...I am 3 years senior ...so not much in it.
See, where you might have looked at a day's living as, "Did I break any laws?", I never did. I was falsely taught that there were no laws to break since Jesus' sacrifice covered the penalty for all of them.
The older man that I am now sees things differently. I ask, today, "Is there anything more that I can learn to do more acceptably?"
I like what David said in how he delighted in God's law. "Oh, how I love your teachings! They are in my thoughts all day long." (Ps 119:97)
The older man that I am now sees things differently. I ask, today, "Is there anything more that I can learn to do more acceptably?"
I like what David said in how he delighted in God's law. "Oh, how I love your teachings! They are in my thoughts all day long." (Ps 119:97)
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That is why I asked what you mean by the law.
There are many laws that are for use in the temple, others that have a civil yet hygene application, like smashing any pot that a dead lizard is found in.
Then there are the laws about not cooking a kid in its mothers milk or useing two types of fabric in an iten of clothing.
As I said the 10C are a guide to how we are to live, the cerimonial and temple laws as well as the 10C were all fulfilled and obeyed by Jesus, which is why we do not have to follow them.
Your illistration about dishonest scale is covered by the command 'Do not steal.'
As for multiple interpretation of 'Love other' the bible is clear, 'each of you should concider other as more important than yourselves.' A command that few actualy follow.
I'm actually talking about the fact that we cannot deny every single one of them were given to Israel. (With the exception of the ones added to keep from violating existing ones) But, I am quite interested in the criteria used to claim to be justified follow some, and ignore others. Is the "repeating" of them in the NT the way to decide, as many say?
To whom are you speaking?
If you use the reply tag or highlight and hit quote a passage you want to comment on.
It makes repling to you easier.
Yes the laws were given to the people/kingdom of Israel and as we don't belong to them. The laws donot apply to us.
But.
As followers of Jesus we need to know what God expects of us in our daily lives.
The 10C give us a moral framework on which to base our lives, We are not bound by those laws.
Even with respect to the future millennial era, there is never any detailed discussion of ethical cause and effect in our forum discussions. There is no detailed discussion of how Jesus Christ will rule on earth through His people. Will there still be politics? Will government be entirely bureaucratic?
What laws will Jesus require governments to enforce? What penalties will be imposed? Will civil judges and juries still hand down sentences? How will appeals be conducted? Will the line of justice-seekers in front of Jesus' headquarters be a thousand times longer than the line in front of Moses' tent (Exo. 18:13)? We are not told — not by by anyone I have ever heard discuss it, anyway.
What laws will Jesus require governments to enforce? What penalties will be imposed? Will civil judges and juries still hand down sentences? How will appeals be conducted? Will the line of justice-seekers in front of Jesus' headquarters be a thousand times longer than the line in front of Moses' tent (Exo. 18:13)? We are not told — not by by anyone I have ever heard discuss it, anyway.
(EDIT) Sorry I was short with you there. I am not here to pick people to argue with and look for targeted responses. These are general questions, and I was just wondering if any of us had any real answers.
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@Willie T
Does the law matter? Does anything matter? If it does how are we remember it or to memorize it much less to obey it when there are so many [laws] written down? Peter says in Acts that the Jews were never able to obey them all so why should the Gentiles...
"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10
He was not saying the law [a yoke] did not matter, but rather that to attempt to follow it was impossible for the Jews and now it was also impossible for the Gentiles. God has given us another better way, but God has not changed.
There are laws and rules and abominations and sins now, but let us not try to enumerate them and define for other people precisely how they are to followed or obeyed. In the OT apparently there were 613 given to Moses, but there were exceptions or shades of meaning, I believe, NOT covered specifically in the literal 613. David as King of Israel broke two [adultery and murder] for which there was no atonement allowed under the literal law. The penalty for either one was death, but God set aside the literal rule because...?
God was looking not at the black and white deed men could see but at the heart of David that only God could see. That was an example for us to help us understand how God worked then and how He works now. God worked in that example case through a prophet [Nathan], but now He works directly with us through the Holy Spirit in us.
Now, our contact point is God through the Holy Spirit whereby it is decided if something is wrong and what penalty if any is to be imposed. As with David, it is possible that for what man might say the death penalty was deserved, God might impose a
lesser penalty. We know that men have moved at times into God's territory in this as well as in other things.
The law of Moses mattered in the OT because it was so ordered by God, but it was never so simple as that. It was a definite set of rules written down for everyone to read or hear when read aloud. Now it is written only on the heart of the believer so that he can understand. Others may or may not understand. For us the law of the OT given to Moses serves as a schoolmaster to explain roughly how God looks at things,
"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Gal 3:23-25
...but like a teacher in the classroom, not every incident that occurred outside the classroom would be or even could be considered with all of the pertinent facts. With God directly involved, every pertinent fact would be known and considered. No final judgments would or should be rendered by flawed men using imprecise written rules and laws. If men are to try a case against a man [see NT examples and explanations] the one or ones rendering the verdict must be guided by the Holy Ghost. See Peter here in that role of rendering a verdict:
"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things." Acts 5:3-5
Peter was being used by the Holy Ghost. Someone not led by the Holy Ghost should not be making that kind of a judgment.
The law man is to love and follow is more precise than the 10 or the 613 because it was no longer a type or shadow necessarily imprecise by nature, but it was God Himself in a person and by nature absolutely perfect. God is Love and God alone is the Law. It is God we are to be like. Do we ever miss the mark of our calling? If we do is it not because we quenched the Holy Spirit in us and went our own way?
Does the law matter? Does anything matter? If it does how are we remember it or to memorize it much less to obey it when there are so many [laws] written down? Peter says in Acts that the Jews were never able to obey them all so why should the Gentiles...
"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10
He was not saying the law [a yoke] did not matter, but rather that to attempt to follow it was impossible for the Jews and now it was also impossible for the Gentiles. God has given us another better way, but God has not changed.
There are laws and rules and abominations and sins now, but let us not try to enumerate them and define for other people precisely how they are to followed or obeyed. In the OT apparently there were 613 given to Moses, but there were exceptions or shades of meaning, I believe, NOT covered specifically in the literal 613. David as King of Israel broke two [adultery and murder] for which there was no atonement allowed under the literal law. The penalty for either one was death, but God set aside the literal rule because...?
God was looking not at the black and white deed men could see but at the heart of David that only God could see. That was an example for us to help us understand how God worked then and how He works now. God worked in that example case through a prophet [Nathan], but now He works directly with us through the Holy Spirit in us.
Now, our contact point is God through the Holy Spirit whereby it is decided if something is wrong and what penalty if any is to be imposed. As with David, it is possible that for what man might say the death penalty was deserved, God might impose a
lesser penalty. We know that men have moved at times into God's territory in this as well as in other things.
The law of Moses mattered in the OT because it was so ordered by God, but it was never so simple as that. It was a definite set of rules written down for everyone to read or hear when read aloud. Now it is written only on the heart of the believer so that he can understand. Others may or may not understand. For us the law of the OT given to Moses serves as a schoolmaster to explain roughly how God looks at things,
"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Gal 3:23-25
...but like a teacher in the classroom, not every incident that occurred outside the classroom would be or even could be considered with all of the pertinent facts. With God directly involved, every pertinent fact would be known and considered. No final judgments would or should be rendered by flawed men using imprecise written rules and laws. If men are to try a case against a man [see NT examples and explanations] the one or ones rendering the verdict must be guided by the Holy Ghost. See Peter here in that role of rendering a verdict:
"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things." Acts 5:3-5
Peter was being used by the Holy Ghost. Someone not led by the Holy Ghost should not be making that kind of a judgment.
The law man is to love and follow is more precise than the 10 or the 613 because it was no longer a type or shadow necessarily imprecise by nature, but it was God Himself in a person and by nature absolutely perfect. God is Love and God alone is the Law. It is God we are to be like. Do we ever miss the mark of our calling? If we do is it not because we quenched the Holy Spirit in us and went our own way?
Helen
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@Willie T
As I see it...we are told in the NT to keep the laws of the land.
Which we do, we obey the rules. We pay our taxes.
That said...I do not believe that there are ANY laws that apply to the Believer ..except...LOVE . As I said earlier...anyone who loves...does not do harm or hurt anyone else. Anyone who loves...is keeping the Spiritual law of God..
As I see it...we are told in the NT to keep the laws of the land.
Which we do, we obey the rules. We pay our taxes.
That said...I do not believe that there are ANY laws that apply to the Believer ..except...LOVE . As I said earlier...anyone who loves...does not do harm or hurt anyone else. Anyone who loves...is keeping the Spiritual law of God..
bbyrd009
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um, yikes?
the laws that you do have to follow are based upon the ten commandments.
the laws that you don't have to follow are no longer "laws" anyway, right
bbyrd009
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Helen
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Agree, he did not mention in his post that the ONLY way to fulfil the law is LOVE. Just like Jesus said. We are not free to "do as we please" without any accountability.
I love the message of Grace, but there is where it went off the rails...they started preaching grace with no accountability. Which is nothing like Paul's very balanced and clear message
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