Does John 1:1 say Jesus is God
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Jesus did not say he existed before Abraham. He said I was the one who mattered before or above Abraham. Not that he was here before Abraham.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
False Alternative. That Jesus confessed to be exiting before Abraham in no way implies he is necessarily the Creator, his Father.
I don't have a verse for this but based on my scope of the entire Bible and how I understand the Christ. Jesus did not say he existed before Abraham. He said I was the one who mattered before or above Abraham. Not that he was here before Abraham.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Idiot first century Jews ... can't even understand their own language: they kept mistaking simple statements of reverence for BLASPHEMY. 
If you take His words seriously, it's exactly what He said.
All these Biblical disagreements come to this exact very thing. Jesus said something, and it's rejected. He said, Before Abraham was, I am, and this has a plain meaning. I accept it, and you don't. Simple as that.
Much love!
Idiot first century Jews ... can't even understand their own language: they kept mistaking simple statements of reverence for BLASPHEMY.
They weren’t idiots (they were believers and unbelievers concerning the matter of a fellow Jew being the Messiah), they understood their own language and Jesus (himself a 1st century Jew) said the Jews in question (not all Jews) couldn’t understand him.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Not so simple when you read the words in Greek....the original language.
“The Word” (ho Logos) was not “ho theos” but simply “theos” which in Greek describes gods, goddesses and divinities, as well as humans who were divinely appointed to carry out an assignment.
Yahweh himself called the judges in Israel “gods” because they were divinely appointed to represent him to the people. (John 10:31-36)
The Mounce Interlinear shows clearly that there are two “gods” in that verse....only one is Yahweh.
John 1:1...
“In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with ho theos [Yahweh] and the Logos was theos. He was in the beginning with ho theos. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:14...
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” (MOUNCE)
You are reading things into John 1:1 and 14 that the writer never intended. What is the “beginning” that John speaks of? The Almighty had no beginning. Jesus did. (Revelation 3:14)
If he was “with Yahweh” how can he, at the same time, BE Yahweh?
The Logos was the agency “through whom” creation came. He is not the Creator.
It was the Logos who became flesh....not Yahweh.
Read what it says...not what you want it to say.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Does it not concern you that no translator (except the Jehovah's Witnesses) translated it that way. Jerome and the Vulgate even disagrees with your translation. Every other translation acknowledges the point John is making is "logos" = "ho theos" (Word = God) ... equality of the two. Setting the stage for "the Word became flesh" as a mike-drop moment.
(PS. There are peer reviewed Scholarly Articles that refute the "missing ho" argument based on Greek Grammar ... which mean nothing to me as I am not an expert on Koine Greek grammar so I am unqualified to weigh in on that level one way or the other.)
atpollard
Well-Known Member
John 1:1 [MGNT] ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
Genesis 1:1 [LXX] ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν
How many First Century, Greek speaking Jews would not be familiar with Genesis 1:1 from the Septuagint?
@atpollard Scripture is gloriously full of the Deity of Christ; and only those with an agenda can deny it in the face of overwhelming evidence.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
I am body, mind, and spirit -- three in one. God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- three in one.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
And your Bible translator qualifications are..?
The Word was (and is) God. In John 10:30 Jesus said, "The Father and I are one". Should I believe Him or you?
Jim B
Well-Known Member
I don't know about you, but I died and was reborn into the body of Christ. Although it's hard to grasp, I died and was reborn with eternal life. I am in Christ, and Christ is in God.
I'm no expert but we studied this in Greek class. It means exactly what we all think it means. Long and convoluted arguments aside.
Much love!
Yes, "agency", a word to say, "don't believe what it says, instead, believe something different." God Himself came to save us.
Much love!
Trinitarian scholars use the word with great regularity, and have for thousands of years.
And in the context of this discussion, it's used how I've said. There are plainly stated Scriptures, which we are instructed to disbelieve because of your assertion of "agency". Appeals to authority aside. I'm certain that they have used that word, and many others, and I'm certain I can believe what the Bible plainly says.
Much love!
You say Tertullian is a trinitarian (even though he isn’t’). I came across him using the term two nights ago in Against Marcion, which you’ve said isn’t worth spending time reading.
Whoever uses the term - trinitarian or non-trinitarian - never uses it to say “don’t believe what it says, instead believe something different”.
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