Does John 1:1 say Jesus is God

[RLT63]

Yup. They are in the minority. Hence the part I posted where it is identified as a parable.

Do you think people are aware after they die - before the Resurrection Day?

I thought you felt being in the minority was a good thing.

 

[Wrangler]

I thought you felt being in the minority was a good thing.

It is. Jesus said the many are headed toward damnation but the few are on the narrow path.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This actually brings up a theory that I have, that is fully supported by Scripture, and that most simply cannot endure because there is zero teaching on it outside of the Bible.

That theory is that ONLY believers, who have the Holy Spirit, are resurrected.

That is not what Jesus said.....
John 5:28-29...
“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

So even those who did vile things (in ignorance) will receive a resurrection. The incorrigibly wicked will never wake up.

Look at the points you made. The Bible says the spirit returns to God, right? Ok, we also see that Jesus refers to those who have not the Spirit as dead.

Two points to be made here....
What is the “spirit” that “returns to God”? Is it a living conscious entity that merely inhabits a body of flesh on earth?
The word spirit has many meanings in scripture, which meaning do you ascribe to it in this instance?

The second point is.....in what way are people “dead” to God even when they are walking around alive on earth?
Can these “dead” ones “come to life”?

"Let the dead bury the dead."
Luke 9:60

Yes, these are the spiritually “dead”, who are focussed on the things pertaining to the flesh. Jesus was responding to a man who was making excuses for not becoming an active disciple, saying that he was responsible for his father’s care until he died. Yet Jesus said that ‘the dead could bury their dead’ because he knew that this man was not the only one who could take care of his father. Being a disciple of Christ carries weighty responsibilities because we are charged with taking the kingdom message out to as many as possible......it forms the basis for their judgment. It is the only “witness” they will receive before “the end comes”. (Matthew 24:14)

We could Biblically conclude that God is in the heavenly realm (despite the omnipresent Truth as well). When we die, our spirit goes to be with God, IF it has life.

As far as the resurrection you referred to, that is the reunion of our spirit with our physical bodies. If all that I have related is True, that is not possible for the unsaved/unbelieving.

Which has huge implications for some of the most common false doctrines.

Again, you have the word “spirit” understood in only one way.....God resides in heaven as we all know, because Jesus told us that. (Matthew 6:9) Nowhere does the Bible say that God is omnipresent. He is “omniscient” which means he is “all knowing”......he does not need to be “omnipresent” in that case.

So in what sense does the “spirit” return to God? The word in Greek means “breath” and this aligns with God’s creation of Adam, where God animated his body with “the breath (spirit) of life.” Only then did the man “become” a “living soul”. (Genesis 2:7)

Too many people interchange the words “soul” and “spirit” as if they are one and the same thing....they are completely different. A “soul” is a living, breathing creature, (both human and animal) whereas the “spirit” in these “souls” resides in the air they breathe.....keeping their cells oxygenated and their hearts beating.

The spirit that returns to God is that persons “breath” symbolically returning to the one who gave it to them, and is given back to them at their resurrection. That “soul” will then live again.

For the majority of humans, a resurrection will be a return to life on a cleansed earth, whilst a finite number will join Christ (his elect) in heaven, resurrected as “spirit” beings in order to exist in that realm. So the word “spirit” has to be understood in context with the rest of the Bible.

How does our spirit obtain life? Jesus says in John 6 that it is the ingesting of His Words that nurture the spirit inside of us; that quickens us, that gives us spiritual LIFE.

John 6:63, 68

Therefore, those who have not the Spirit, have nothing to nurture with God's Words and have no life. They are dead.

Again we have a different meaning of “spirit” in this context.
In a nutshell there are a variety of meanings in this one word in both Hebrew and Greek.....

• The Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings.
• All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to...
• (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Exodus 35:21; Psalm 104:29; Matthew 12:43; Luke 11:13)

 

[GEN2REV]

We finally agreee!

I know @Aunty Jane firmly believes there is no eternal fiery hell. It seems very unloving to raise someone from the dead, only to torture them for eternity.

Well, I do believe in hell, but ... my theory is a bit worse than what you've proposed there.

If it's only those with the Holy Spirit who are raised, that is - only those who believe in Christ, thus, Christians - that means that those who Jesus is speaking to in Matthew 7:21-23, those crying "Lord, Lord, ..." and being turned away, ..... those are actually Christians being sent to the Lake of Fire.

I know it sounds totally whack and completely made-up, but it actually does follow Scripture.

It's hard for me to fully embrace it, and I've had nobody else confirm it, but it is a scary, scary possibility if it is true.

I think we can all agree that there will be many, many Christians who do not make it to heaven, simply based on the verses that tell us it is a narrow road and few will find it, etc.

But to think that it'll only be believing Christians who go to hell .... is really hard to process.

The Bible tells us that there is only ONE unforgivable sin. That is the sin against the Holy Spirit. If we receive the Spirit and don't nurture it with regular reading of Scripture, as Jesus explains in John 6, and we continue to live like the world and habitually sin, etc., the Holy Spirit WILL leave us. And what happens after that is terrifying.

It would be better if these people had never known anything about Christ, or His Ways, Commandments, etc., than for them to know all about them and yet turn away from Him to live their own way. What happens to them is as the proverb states, The dog returns to his vomit (old sins), and the sow returns to her wallowing in the mud (unclean living). 2 Peter 2:21-22

 

[atpollard]

Do you think people are aware after they die - before the Resurrection Day?

Yup.

KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

NKJV
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NLT
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NIV
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

ESV
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

CSB
And he said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NASB20
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NASB95
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

LSB
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

NET
And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

RSV
And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

ASV
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

YLT
and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

DBY
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

WEB
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

HNV
Yeshua said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

 

[Matthias]

Yup.

KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

NKJV
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NLT
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NIV
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

ESV
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

CSB
And he said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NASB20
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NASB95
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

LSB
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

NET
And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

RSV
And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

ASV
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

YLT
and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

DBY
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

WEB
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

HNV
Yeshua said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Where is paradise?

 

[GEN2REV]

That is not what Jesus said.....
John 5:28-29...
“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

Your posts are often way too long to respond to. You need to take just a few points at a time to discuss.

Many of you always take ONE statement/verse from the Bible as if it's the ONLY one, out of 31,100 verses in Scripture, on the matter.

Jesus said a lotta things. He also said that ONLY His sheep could hear His voice. So if Jesus says in one place 'Only His sheep hear His voice', it is up to us to understand that when it says somewhere else that ALL those in the graves will hear His voice, it is undebatable stating that ALL HIS SHEEP that are in the graves will hear His voice. And what comes after that is what will happen to those sheep.

 

[atpollard]

Where is paradise?

NOT here and NOT asleep: WITH Jesus ... that was the important part.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yup.

KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

NKJV
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NLT
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NIV
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

ESV
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

CSB
And he said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NASB20
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NASB95
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

LSB
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

NET
And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

RSV
And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

ASV
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

YLT
and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

DBY
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

WEB
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

HNV
Yeshua said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Have you ever really read that scripture with understanding of what Jesus actually said to the man dying alongside of him?
Promising him life in “paradise” was not saying that he was going to be with Jesus in “heaven”....yet that is what you want it to say.....
Look at all those quotes and see one little comma......then understand that in Greek, there is no punctuation.....that means that the translators put the comma where they supposed it belonged.....but did it?

Place the comma after the word “today” instead and it changes the meaning of the entire statement.

Did Jesus go to heaven that “day”? If he did then he was lying to the Jews when he told them that he would be in his grave for three days. Scripture also tells us that Jesus stayed on earth in spirit form for 40 days, appearing to his disciples periodically to strengthen them and prepare them for the road ahead without his physical presence. Only then did he return to heaven, so telling the thief that he would be in heaven that “day” with Jesus, contradicts everything Jesus said about his resurrection.

The thief will be among the “unrighteousness” ones whom Jesus will resurrect back to the earthly Paradise when his kingdom is ruling redeemed mankind. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)

 

[Matthias]

NOT here and NOT asleep:

If not here then there. But where is there?

WITH Jesus ... that was the important part. :)

With a person, yes. But the person himself isn’t paradise, is he?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Your posts are often way too long to respond to. You need to take just a few points at a time to discuss.

Many of you always take ONE statement/verse from the Bible as if it's the ONLY one, out of 31,100 verses in Scripture, on the matter.

Your points were addressed one at a time, separated so that you can address them separately if you wish.

I can’t see the point in making each one a separate post.

Jesus said a lotta things. He also said that ONLY His sheep could hear His voice. So if Jesus says in one place 'Only His sheep hear His voice', it is up to us to understand that when it says somewhere else that ALL those in the graves will hear His voice, it is undebatable stating that ALL HIS SHEEP that are in the graves will hear His voice. And what comes after that is what will happen to those sheep.

The resurrection is a solid Bible teaching, and it clearly states that there are two separate resurrections to two different realms. The resurrection of the elect is a spiritual resurrection of those chosen by God and anointed with his spirit for life in heaven which was not to take place until Christ’s return. This is the “first resurrection”...which is first in time and first in importance because when the general resurrection of the dead takes place on earth, God’s ruling body in heaven are all in place ready to take over their care. (Revelation 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

 

[Peterlag]

Ok, Strangler.

Now back to you. You want to talk about John 1:1. So I'm posting stuff about John 1:1. Behold...

With all the definitions and ways logos can be translated, how can we decide which meaning of logos to choose for any one verse? How can it be determined what the logos in John 1:1 is? Any occurrence of logos has to be carefully studied in its context in order to get the proper meaning. We assert that the logos in John 1:1 cannot be Jesus. Please notice that "Jesus Christ" is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son.

The renowned Trinitarian scholar, John Lightfoot, writes...

The word logos then, denoting both: "reason" and "speech," was a philosophical term adopted by Alexandrian Judaism before St. Paul wrote, to express the manifestation of the Unseen God in the creation and government of the World. It included all modes by which God makes Himself known to man. As His reason, it denoted His purpose or design; as His speech, it implied His revelation. Christian teachers, when they adopted this term, exalted and fixed its meaning by attaching to it two precise and definite ideas: (1) "The Word is a Divine Person," (2) "The Word became incarnate in Jesus Christ." It is obvious that these two propositions must have altered materially the significance of all the subordinate terms connected with the idea of the logos.

It is important to note that it was "Christian teachers" who attached the idea of a "divine person" to the word logos. It's certainly true that when the word logos came to be understood as being Jesus Christ, the understanding of John 1:1 was altered substantially. Lightfoot correctly understands that the early meaning of logos concerned reason and speech, not "Jesus Christ." Morton develops the concept of logos as "reason" and writes:

There is no word in English answering to the Greek word logos, as used here [in John 1:1]. It was employed to denote a mode of conception concerning the Deity, familiar at the time when St. John wrote and intimately blended with the philosophy of his age, but long since obsolete, and so foreign from our habits of thinking that it is not easy for us to conform our minds to its apprehension. The Greek word logos, in one of its primary senses, answered nearly to our word Reason. The logos of God was regarded, not in its strictest sense, as merely the Reason of God; but, under certain aspects, as the Wisdom, the Mind, the Intellect of God.

Norton postulates that perhaps "the power of God" would be a good translation for logos. Buzzard sets forth "plan," "purpose" or "promise" as three acceptable translations. Broughton and Southgate say "thoughts, plan or purpose of God, particularly in action." Many scholars identify logos with God's wisdom and reason.

 

[Peterlag]

With all the definitions and ways logos can be translated, how can we decide which meaning of logos to choose for any one verse? How can it be determined what the logos in John 1:1 is? Any occurrence of logos has to be carefully studied in its context in order to get the proper meaning. We assert that the logos in John 1:1 cannot be Jesus. Please notice that "Jesus Christ" is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son.

The renowned Trinitarian scholar, John Lightfoot, writes...

The word logos then, denoting both: "reason" and "speech," was a philosophical term adopted by Alexandrian Judaism before St. Paul wrote, to express the manifestation of the Unseen God in the creation and government of the World. It included all modes by which God makes Himself known to man. As His reason, it denoted His purpose or design; as His speech, it implied His revelation. Christian teachers, when they adopted this term, exalted and fixed its meaning by attaching to it two precise and definite ideas: (1) "The Word is a Divine Person," (2) "The Word became incarnate in Jesus Christ." It is obvious that these two propositions must have altered materially the significance of all the subordinate terms connected with the idea of the logos.

It is important to note that it was "Christian teachers" who attached the idea of a "divine person" to the word logos. It's certainly true that when the word logos came to be understood as being Jesus Christ, the understanding of John 1:1 was altered substantially. Lightfoot correctly understands that the early meaning of logos concerned reason and speech, not "Jesus Christ." Morton develops the concept of logos as "reason" and writes:

There is no word in English answering to the Greek word logos, as used here [in John 1:1]. It was employed to denote a mode of conception concerning the Deity, familiar at the time when St. John wrote and intimately blended with the philosophy of his age, but long since obsolete, and so foreign from our habits of thinking that it is not easy for us to conform our minds to its apprehension. The Greek word logos, in one of its primary senses, answered nearly to our word Reason. The logos of God was regarded, not in its strictest sense, as merely the Reason of God; but, under certain aspects, as the Wisdom, the Mind, the Intellect of God.

Norton postulates that perhaps "the power of God" would be a good translation for logos. Buzzard sets forth "plan," "purpose" or "promise" as three acceptable translations. Broughton and Southgate say "thoughts, plan or purpose of God, particularly in action." Many scholars identify logos with God's wisdom and reason.

 

[atpollard]

If not here then there. But where is there?



With a person, yes. But the person himself isn’t paradise, is he?

If you want to champion “Jesus lied to the thief” … have at it.
But I believe Him.

 

[GEN2REV]

Did Jesus go to heaven that “day”? If he did then he was lying to the Jews when he told them that he would be in his grave for three days. Scripture also tells us that Jesus stayed on earth in spirit form for 40 days, appearing to his disciples periodically to strengthen them and prepare them for the road ahead without his physical presence. Only then did he return to heaven, so telling the thief that he would be in heaven that “day” with Jesus, contradicts everything Jesus said about his resurrection.

None of this is a certainty.

And here you are accusing others of seeing only what they want to.

God exists outside of time and space in the heavenly realms. He is not confined to space and time as He CREATED them.

Therefore, if that man died and went to heaven, he actually WOULD have been with God immediately. For him anyway, it WOULD have been that very day. And Jesus, being God, would have been there as well.

You also claimed in a previous post to me that the Bible says nothing about God being omnipresent. That is completely inaccurate. Here, God Himself makes a statement quite to the contrary.

"Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD."
Jeremiah 23:24

Yes, God SURE IS omniscient, omnipotent AND OMNIPRESENT!!

 

[atpollard]

Place the comma after the word “today” instead and it changes the meaning of the entire statement.

That is why I quoted all those different translations by all those different Scholars and groups of scholars … they all placed the coma in the same place. Place the coma before the word “today” and you get the Biblical meaning intended by Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Author.

 

[Matthias]

If you want to champion “Jesus lied to the thief” … have at it.
But I believe Him.

Asking “Where is paradise?” = Championing “Jesus lied to the thief”?

I don’t think so.

 

[atpollard]

Asking “Where is paradise?” = Championing “Jesus lied to the thief”?

I don’t think so.

You are challenging my response that the thief went to be with Jesus.

 

[GEN2REV]

The resurrection is a solid Bible teaching, and it clearly states that there are two separate resurrections to two different realms.

Blasphemous LIES.

Show where the Bible states that.

John 5:28-29 shows ONE RESURRECTION ....... with ..... TWO OUTCOMES for those resurrected.

See it, accept it, admit it ......... and LIKE IT!!!

 

[RLT63]

Have you ever really read that scripture with understanding of what Jesus actually said to the man dying alongside of him?
Promising him life in “paradise” was not saying that he was going to be with Jesus in “heaven”....yet that is what you want it to say.....
Look at all those quotes and see one little comma......then understand that in Greek, there is no punctuation.....that means that the translators put the comma where they supposed it belonged.....but did it?

Place the comma after the word “today” instead and it changes the meaning of the entire statement.

Did Jesus go to heaven that “day”? If he did then he was lying to the Jews when he told them that he would be in his grave for three days. Scripture also tells us that Jesus stayed on earth in spirit form for 40 days, appearing to his disciples periodically to strengthen them and prepare them for the road ahead without his physical presence. Only then did he return to heaven, so telling the thief that he would be in heaven that “day” with Jesus, contradicts everything Jesus said about his resurrection.

The thief will be among the “unrighteousness” ones whom Jesus will resurrect back to the earthly Paradise when his kingdom is ruling redeemed mankind. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)

Moving the comma doesn't change anything.. This verse doesn't fit your theology so you dismiss it. YLT translates it the same way so does the NASB95 and just about every other translation.