Do you accept this a Biblical fact or fiction?:

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keithr

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I'm curious, how do you reconcile these?

Was Jesus created, or did He create all that was created? Both are not true.
Jesus being the "firstborn of all creation" implies that he was created first, and he existed before all the rest of creation. So God created Jesus first, then He had Jesus create all the rest of creation. As John 1:1 says, Jesus was with God in the beginning, the beginning of God's creation of the universe (Gen 1:1 - "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth"), and it was Jesus who performed the creative work.

And as the firstborn, Jesus is God's heir - Hebrews 1 (WEB):

1) God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.

8) But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.
9) You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”
10) And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.​

Although Jesus' throne is forever, nevertheless:
(1Cor 15:28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​
so God will always be superior to Jesus (1Cor 11:3 - "the head of Christ is God").
 

Robert Gwin

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Visit the rules if you don't believe me. This site upholds the Deity of Jesus in our Triune God.

Obfuscate and ignore and question and wriggle out of it. Justify yourself. But you are still in violation of your agreement you made when you joined the board.

Much love!

I will continue in my obedience as a disciple of Christ to teach all the things he commanded sir. Others beliefs or persecutions have no influence upon my sacred service to the God that Jesus worshiped and served, leaving us an example to follow.
 
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Robert Gwin

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The only reason you present these verses to denigrate Jesus Christ as a "created thing" is because you deny the truth in Philippians 2, that Jesus humbled Himself, taking the form of a servant, being found fashioned as a man.

You are correct. The Bible does not contradict itself. But it does contradict this false teaching that Jesus Christ, by Whom all things were created which were created, was Himself created, and is not the Creator.

Jesus is Almight God, Creator of everything, Creator of you, and you will have to face Him on that basis.

Much love!

The Bible teaches Jehovah is the creator, all things with the exception of Jesus of course came was created through Jesus not by Jesus. The term Almighty is applied exclusively to Jehovah.
 

Robert Gwin

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No, they don't.

Now you see the differences in our understanding maam, exactly opposite to me. To me they indicate that Jehovah is the living God, and Jesus is His son. Thanks for your input Wynona.
 

Robert Gwin

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But knowing that th eONE God is manifested in three entities we call Father, Son and Holy Spirit They all are the one living God (see the difference for th eword one in the hebrew with echad v. yachid)

Te fact that Jesus is called Jehovah and the Holy Spirit is called God they are the one true god. Equal in essence or divinity, but different in position or autrhority.

The Father is above the Son and Spirit in authority and exaltation.
The Son is above the Spirit in ezaltation.
The spirit leads believers to worship the Father and son and pray to the Father.

The Bible indicates there are 2 real Gods Ron. Jehovah and satan, the everlasting eventuality of every single individual on earth will be determined by which of those two one chooses to stand with. The sad reality of the teaching of the Bible, as far as I can see is, that the default god is satan. One has to personally choose to serve Jehovah, please allow me to repeat that, serving Jehovah is a choice. If one does not choose to serve Jehovah, and is not restricted by capabilities, then he will automatically be standing in opposition to Jehovah, therefore siding with satan.

I would love to have someone prove me wrong, please do sir, but 2 thes 1 verse 8 is quite clearly written and very easy to understand.
 

Wrangler

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Why do you cherry pick translations anyway?

I read 6 translations and often refer to the one I was recently reading when something comes up in online conversations. I've found depending on the verse, certain translations come alive for me more than others. The translations I read are:
  1. CEV - Read Devotionally (Love Most Ps 82:1)
  2. NLT - Read Devotionally (Love Most GE 3:16 & how the Every Man's Bible Bottom Lines so many concepts)
  3. VOICE - Spirit Led (Generally, most loved translation. The one I go to the most)
  4. ESV - Church Led (Taught granddaughter Jeremiah 29:13)
And I am currently doing devotional reading in NSRV Cultural Bible & CJB. These tend to be more intellectual.

But what I was referring to was,

Philippians 2:5-11 KJV
5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6) Who, being in the form of God

You do realize "being in the form of" necessarily means the thing is NOT what it is in the form of, right? For instance, pottery in the form of a teddy bear is not an actual bear.
 

marks

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I will continue in my obedience as a disciple of Christ to teach all the things he commanded sir. Others beliefs or persecutions have no influence upon my sacred service to the God that Jesus worshiped and served, leaving us an example to follow.
So then you realize are participating under false pretenses?

Much love!
 

marks

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I read 6 translations and often refer to the one I was recently reading when something comes up in online conversations. I've found depending on the verse, certain translations come alive for me more than others. The translations I read are:
  1. CEV - Read Devotionally (Love Most Ps 82:1)
  2. NLT - Read Devotionally (Love Most GE 3:16 & how the Every Man's Bible Bottom Lines so many concepts)
  3. VOICE - Spirit Led (Generally, most loved translation. The one I go to the most)
  4. ESV - Church Led (Taught granddaughter Jeremiah 29:13)
And I am currently doing devotional reading in NSRV Cultural Bible & CJB. These tend to be more intellectual.
OK, this helps me understand better, thank you!

Do you refer to more literal translations also? Do you use interlinears or other Greek / Hebrew tools?

Personally I have some issues with one's like the NLT and the VOICE, I find they seem to miss a lot of what is there in trying to make it easier to apprehend. So I always use them alongside something like the KJV or NASB. Anymore, I really mostly stay with the KJV.

But I'll say also that both NLT and ESV revitalized my Bible reading in those days I read them.

Much love!
 

marks

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all things with the exception of Jesus of course
There is the contradiction. One of them, anyway.

Colossians 1:16 KJV
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This verse declares that view false.

So you are here under false pretenses for the purpose to declare the plain statements of Scripture concerning our God and Savior Jesus Christ to be false.

Not to put too fine a point on it!

Much love!
 

marks

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The Bible indicates there are 2 real Gods Ron. Jehovah and satan, the everlasting eventuality of every single individual on earth will be determined by which of those two one chooses to stand with.

Isaiah 45:21-25 KJV
21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I YHWH? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24) Surely, shall one say, in YHWH
have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25) In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

There is One God.

Philippians 2:9-11 KJV
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Unto Me, unto YHWH, at the Name of Jesus, every knee shall bow.

You shall bow to Jesus Christ, and confess the He is in fact LORD.

Much love!
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Both are true and The Apostles ( Thomas, Paul, Peter and John) called Christ their God in John 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1 and 1 John 5:20. There are many other passages that refer to Christ as God as well.

hope this helps !!!

What Thomas said at John 20:28 doesn't mean that Thomas believed Jesus to be The Only True God who created all things and is the source of all life. Jesus had told his Apostles at John 20:17 that he, meaning Jesus, had a Father and God who was his Apostles and disciples Father and God. What Thomas said to Jesus at John 20:28 doesn't in any way make Jesus a liar when he stated what he said at John 20:17 and Thomas wasn't in any way trying to say when he stated what he said at John 20:28 that Jesus was a liar. The Father and God of Jesus who's name is YHWH is the creator of all things and the source of all life.
Paul at Roman 15: 5, 6; 2 Corinthians 1:3, 4; shows that he believed what Jesus said at John 20:17 is true.
 

ChristisGod

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What Thomas said at John 20:28 doesn't mean that Thomas believed Jesus to be The Only True God who created all things and is the source of all life. Jesus had told his Apostles at John 20:17 that he, meaning Jesus, had a Father and God who was his Apostles and disciples Father and God. What Thomas said to Jesus at John 20:28 doesn't in any way make Jesus a liar when he stated what he said at John 20:17 and Thomas wasn't in any way trying to say when he stated what he said at John 20:28 that Jesus was a liar. The Father and God of Jesus who's name is YHWH is the creator of all things and the source of all life.
Paul at Roman 15: 5, 6; 2 Corinthians 1:3, 4; shows that he believed what Jesus said at John 20:17 is true.
Your problem when reading the Bible is that it’s impossible for you to be unbiased and objective. You read the Bible with an assumption that Jesus is not God therefor making it your ambition and obsession to disprove it at all costs . You are incapable of allowing God to communicate truth.

hope this helps !!!
 

amadeus

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I will continue in my obedience as a disciple of Christ to teach all the things he commanded sir. Others beliefs or persecutions have no influence upon my sacred service to the God that Jesus worshiped and served, leaving us an example to follow.
I have been here since 2008 and have never during that time embraced the Trinity.

By disagreeing with the Trinity and discussing you are Not in violation... See site statements here:


Statement on the Trinity
 

David in NJ

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Quite right, because the angels weren't involved in the creation. We're told who was involved in the creation in Colossians 1 (WEB):

15) who [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16) For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.​

So God was clearly talking to His Son, Jesus, in Genesis 1:26. Genesis 1 records God instructing Jesus on what to create. Colossians 1:16 also tells us that Jesus created the angels (before the world and universe was made). Job 38 confirms that the angels already existed when the earth was created:

4) “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if you have understanding.
5) Who determined its measures, if you know? Or who stretched the line on it?
6) Whereupon were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
7) when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

Note that Colossians 1:15 tells us that Jesus was the "firstborn of all creation" (or "over all creation"), so he was the first to be created and was entitled to a double portion of his Father's inheritance (according to the Law of Moses).


Or perhaps you don't understand it?!




Dear keithr,
Everything is GOOD until your last statement = "Note that Colossians 1:15 tells us that Jesus was the "firstborn of all creation" (or "over all creation"), so he was the first to be created..."

The Lord Jesus Christ was NOT Created - He always existed and is Eternal - No beginning - No end

"firstborn over all Creation" refers to His Resurrection of His physical Body that died on the Cross for our sins.

Make this correction in your heart and mind at you are on the Right Path.
 

David in NJ

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What? One is not allowed to talk Scripture here? Doesn't make sense to me. Why would it be called Bible Study Forum if that is the case.

Please, talk and enjoy the Scripture - just don't make this mistake = Proverbs 30: 5-6

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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.......................................
In addition to insisting that echad means “plural oneness” some also insist that, if God had intended the meaning of “absolute oneness” (singleness, only one individual) at Deut. 6:4, he would have used the word yachid (or yacheed).

So let’s examine the intended meanings of echad and yachid.

First, it certainly wouldn’t be surprising to find that some noted trinitarian authority on Biblical Hebrew had written somewhere that echad means “united or plural oneness.” but I haven’t found one yet!

Here is what I have found written about echad by authorities on Biblical Hebrew:

The only definition given for echad in the very trinitarian New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance is: “a prim[ary] card[inal] number; one”. We find no “plural oneness” there!

The highly respected Biblical Hebrew authority, Gesenius, says that echad is “a numeral having the power of an adjective, one.” He then lists the various meanings of echad as:

“(1) The same,”

“(2) first,”

“(3) some one,”

“(4) it acts the part of an indefinite article,”

“(5) one only of its kind,”

“(6) when repeated [echad ... echad] ‘one ... another’,”

“(7) [K echad] AS one man.” [The initial consonant of this word, “K,” actually means “as” or “like,” so in this special form the meaning is close to that of a plural oneness. But this is not the form used at Deut. 6:4 !! ]

Gesenius also lists a plural form of the word (achadim,) which means “joined in one, united.” This, too, is not the form used at Deut. 6:4 which context shows, instead, to have meaning #5 above. - See Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, #259, Baker Book House. Surely, if God (or Jehovah) were really a union of persons, a united one, this form which truly means “united one” would have been used to describe “Him” repeatedly in the Holy Scriptures. But it and all other words with similar meanings were never used for God (or Jehovah)!

By using a good Bible Concordance (such as Strong’s or Young’s) we can find all the uses of echad in the Bible. Unfortunately (due to space limitations), Young’s and Strong’s both list the rare plural form (achadim,) and the “AS one” (Kechad,) form along with the common singular form (echad) without distinguishing among them.

Nevertheless, since both the plural form and the kechad form are used quite rarely (see Ezek. 37:17 and 2 Chronicles 5:13 for examples), we can see that the overwhelming majority of the uses of echad listed in these concordances (over 500) obviously have the meaning of singleness just as we normally use the word “one” today.

If you should find a scripture listed as using echad in your concordance that definitely has the meaning “plural oneness” or “together,” or “as one,” you should check it out in an interlinear Hebrew-English Bible. If the word in question is really the echad form of the word (as at Deut. 6:4), then it will end with the Hebrew letter “d” in the Hebrew portion of your interlinear. If, however, it is really the plural form of the word (achadim), then it will end in the Hebrew letter “m”. And if the word is really Kechad (“AS one”), it will begin with the Hebrew letter “k”. Remember, though, that Hebrew reads from right to left (so the LAST letter of a Hebrew word is really the letter at the extreme LEFT.)

Using your concordance along with an interlinear Hebrew-English Bible in this manner, I don’t believe you will ever find echad (as used at Deut. 6:4) literally meaning “plural oneness”!

Further emphasizing the impropriety of this “plural oneness” interpretation of echad are the many trinitarian renderings of Deut. 6:4. In the dozens of different trinitarian Bible translations that I have examined none of them have rendered Deut. 6:4 (or Mark 12:29) in such a way as to show anything even faintly resembling a “plural oneness”!!

Even the highly trinitarian The Living Bible, which, being a paraphrase Bible, is able to (and frequently does) take great liberties with the literal Greek and Hebrew meanings in order to make better trinitarian interpretations, renders Deut. 6:4 as “Jehovah is our God, Jehovah alone.” Notice that there’s not even a hint of a “plural oneness” Jehovah!

The equally trinitarian (and nearly as “freely” translated as The Living Bible) Good News Bible (GNB) renders it: “The LORD - and the LORD alone - is our God.” - Compare the equally “free-handed” (and trinitarian) The Amplified Bible.

Yachid

A few trinitarians insist that not only does echad mean “plural oneness,” but that, if singleness were intended by the Bible writer, the Hebrew word yachid would have been used at Deut. 6:4.

Here is how it was presented to me by one trinitarian:

“The word for ‘one’ in this great declaration [Deut. 6:4] is not Yachid which is an absolute oneness but rather echad which means ‘united one.’ Had the Holy Spirit desired to state absolute mathematical oneness in this all-important declaration, He could have easily used the word yachid, couldn’t He?”

We have already seen the desperate falsity of the “echad-means-’plural-oneness’” idea. But what about yachid? Did the Bible writers really use it whenever they meant “absolute mathematical oneness”? We have already seen that they really used echad for “absolute mathematical oneness,” and a good concordance will show they did this consistently—many hundreds of times!

Yachid, on the other hand, is only used about 12 times in the entire Bible and then only in a narrow, specific sense.

The Old Testament language authority, Gesenius, tells us that yachid is used in three very specialized ways: (1) “only” but primarily in the sense of “only begotten”! - Gen. 22:2, 12, 16; Jer. 6:26; and Zech. 12:10. (2) “solitary” but with the connotation of “forsaken” or “wretched” ! - Ps. 25:16; 68:6. (3) As yachidah (feminine form) meaning “only one” as something most dear and used “poet[ically] for ‘life’ - Ps. 22:20; 35:17.” - p. 345 b.

We find yachid is never used to describe God anywhere in the entire Bible! But it is used to describe Isaac in his prefigured representation of the Messiah (and ‘only-begotten’): Gen. 22:2, 12, 16. It is also used at Judges 11:34 for an only-begotten child. The ancient Greek Septuagint translates yachid at Judges 11:34 as monogenes (“only-begotten”): the same NT Greek word repeatedly used to describe Christ (even in his pre-human heavenly existence - 1 John 4:9). Monogenes, however, like the Hebrew yachid, is never used to describe the only true God, Jehovah (who is the Father alone).

So, if Jehovah were to describe himself as “forsaken” or “wretched,” or were speaking poetically about his “dear life,” or were describing himself as the “only-begotten son” (which he never does anywhere in the Bible!), then he might have used yachid.

But since he was describing his “mathematical oneness” at Deut. 6:4, he properly used echad!

For the rest of my personal study on this subject see:

Examining the Trinity: Echad - 'One'


Echad means one as singular, but also one as a "plural one" . Hard to define it. It gives the sense that God though one is formed of more than one. Take for example a baseball team. It has a roster of 26 individuals, but yet they make up one ball team.

This definition falls pefectly in line with the fact that God is called Elohim (plural) instead of elowah.

It also fits that Yahweh is called Adonai (plural) instead of the singular adon.

It also fits that Elohim said let us make man in our image and our likeness And Elohim made man in the image of GOD!
 

Ronald Nolette

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The Bible indicates there are 2 real Gods Ron. Jehovah and satan, the everlasting eventuality of every single individual on earth will be determined by which of those two one chooses to stand with. The sad reality of the teaching of the Bible, as far as I can see is, that the default god is satan. One has to personally choose to serve Jehovah, please allow me to repeat that, serving Jehovah is a choice. If one does not choose to serve Jehovah, and is not restricted by capabilities, then he will automatically be standing in opposition to Jehovah, therefore siding with satan.

I would love to have someone prove me wrong, please do sir, but 2 thes 1 verse 8 is quite clearly written and very easy to understand.


Satan is called the god of this world, but he i snot GOD! He is a false god. Jesus is also called God. Rmember if someone is not true- they are false!

Serving Yahweh comes after one is born again! One in the flesh cannot choose to serve god! romans 8 and I cornthians makes that clear. the unsaved person cannot do anything, let me repeat ANYTHING to please GOd.
 

Wrangler

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Do you refer to more literal translations also?

ESV markets itself as the most literal translation available. NSRV is the only translation approved by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants.

The Bible is highly figurative, rendering adherence to literal translations a bit silly. Frankly, a literal translation does not render proper 21st century American.

A Japanese explained they flip the order of subjects and objects. In Spanish, they reverse the order of noun adjective. Where we say large house, they say house large.

I guess thought translations, which translate the whole sentence rather than just the words, were made for people like me.

Make a Blessed Day!
 
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