Do you accept this a Biblical fact or fiction?:

[Wrangler]

No since the Apostles called Him their God. See John 1:1 John 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, 1 John 5:20.

None of the Apostles called Jesus their God. (Sad reliance on non-explicit verses).

John 1:1 does not even reference Jesus. Unbelievable!

 

[David in NJ]

Ex. 3:15
"Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel I AM [ehyeh] hath sent me unto you. :)15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah [YHWH], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.” - ASV (compare Ex. 3:15 in JB; LB; Darby; NEB; ERV; HCSB; LEB; NLT; WEB; and YLT.)

First, we need to note that the original manuscripts (and all copies for many hundreds of years thereafter) had no punctuation and no capitalization (for both Old Testament Hebrew and New Testament Greek). So the only reason “I AM” is capitalized in modern Bibles is that many modern translators believe it should be considered a title or name for God.

The two main points to be made about Exodus 3:14 in the ancient Hebrew manuscripts are: (1) the word sometimes translated “I AM” in English is not the name of God but merely an explanation of the meaning of his only personal name (“Jehovah” - English form; “Yahweh” - possible Hebrew form), and (2) translating that Hebrew word (ehyeh) as “I Am” is probably incorrect.

You can see the truth of point #1 by carefully examining Ex. 3:13-15. Especially when you see a translation that honestly translates God’s name in Ex. 3:15 as “Yahweh” or “Jehovah” (not “LORD”). Notice where God used the word “name” in Ex. 3:15 and what it refers to. (Compare Ps. 83:16, 18 - “fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD [mistranslation of “Jehovah” - see ASV] .... That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.” - King James Version.)

It is very clear that although YHWH (Jehovah) is used many thousands of times as God’s personal name throughout the OT by God Himself and His followers, the word ehyeh is used only once (Ex.3:14) for God.

“Nevertheless, Exod. 3 does not appear to give a new name for the first time but the explanation of a name known already but now identified as the saving God of Israel....” - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, p. 69, Vol. 2, Zondervan, 1986.

In its commentary to Exodus 3:14, the JPS Tanakh, Jewish Study Bible, Oxford Edition states:
"God's proper name disclosed in the next verse is YHVH (spelled yod-heh-vav-heh. In Heb., in ancient times, the "vav" was pronounced "w"). But here God first tells Moses its meaning; ehyeh-asher-ehyeh, probably best translated as "I will be what I will be" meaning: "My nature will become evident from my actions."

“The name of God
“Israel’s ancestors knew God as ‘the LORD’, Yahweh (or Jehovah) (Genesis 2:4; Gen 12:1; Gen 26:2; Gen 28:21; Gen 49:18), but the name meant little to the Israelites of Moses’ time. God’s revelation to Moses in the ‘I am’ statement of Exodus 3:14 was an explanation of what the name Yahweh should have meant to God’s people.” - Bridgeway Bible Commentary.

“God had made Himself known to Abraham as Jehovah (Genesis 15:7). But here [Ex. 3:14] He gives the explanation of His name Jehovah. The patriarchs knew the name Jehovah, but the blessed significance of that name was not known to them.” - Arno Gaebelein's Annotated Bible.

A further difficulty for this trinitarian “proof” comes from the high probability that ehyeh is mistranslated as “I am.” ). I first suspected this when I saw how ehyeh was translated at Ex. 3:14 in the following Bibles: Moffatt’s translation - “I WILL BE”; Byington’s - “I WILL BE”; Rotherham’s - “I WILL BECOME”; Concordant Literal Version - “I-SHALL-COME-TO-BE”; Julia Smith’s - “I SHALL BE”; Leeser’s - “I WILL BE”; New World Translation - “I SHALL PROVE TO BE.”

In addition were the following alternate readings in footnotes: American Standard Version - “I WILL BE”; NIV Study Bible - “I WILL BE”; Revised Standard Version - “I WILL BE”; New Revised Standard Version - “I WILL BE”; New English Bible - “I WILL BE”; Revised English Bible - “I WILL BE”; Living Bible - “I WILL BE”; Good News Bible - “I WILL BE”; English Standard Version - "I WILL BE" .

In contrast to the paucity of evidence for an “I am” interpretation of ehyeh you will find that all of the books of Moses (the Pentateuch), including Exodus, of course, and the book of Joshua always use ehyeh to mean “I will be." A Hebrew interlinear will back this up.

2 Samuel 7:14 in the OT is quoted in the New Testament Greek scriptures at Hebrews 1:5. Notice that when ehyeh (2 Sam. 7:14) was translated into the NT Greek by the inspired Bible writer at Heb. 1:5, he didn’t write ego eimi (“I am”) but ego esomai (“I will be”)! (Esomai is also used at 2 Sam. 7:14 in the Septuagint, the ancient Greek OT,)

Ezekiel 11:20 is also quoted in the NT at Heb. 8:10. Ehyeh in Ezekiel 11:20 is translated as "I will be," of course, and the quoting of this word by the NT writer in Heb. 8:10 is esomai ("I will be") not ego eimi (“I am”). (Ego esomai is used at Ezek. 11:20 in the Septuagint also.)

For my full study of this see:
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 3

If you do not understand "Let us make man in Our Image, according to Our Likeness - in Genesis
and how God reveals who HE/Elohim is in the lives of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then you cannot understand Exodus 3
where God declares Himself as 3 Persons of the Godhead.

You can do all the acrobatic movements and word usage you want.

God painted the Picture of Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit = this is Scripture / the WORD who was God in the beginning.

Though the carnal mind (mans intellect) can read the scriptures he cannot know the things of the Spirit for they are spiritually discerned.
By the same Holy Spirit who moved upon the waters in the Beginning.
The Spirit of Truth that displaces the spirit of error.

i specifically used the word elohim since this is the Shema for all who believe = Elohim Echad
the unbelieving jews changed elohim for elohenu to avoid Yeshua in Scripture - seeking to establish their own righteousness

Scripture cannot lie

Order of Scripture
woven throughout His Word
Clear to See if you bend the knee
not to me or to other men
but to God who holds the Eternal Pen

 

[Wynona]

(Jeremiah 10:10) . . .Jehovah is truly God. He is the living God . . .

Concerning Jesus:
(Matthew 16:16) . . .“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Yes??

I must be missing something or this thread is clearly above my paygrade.

Im sure there is a grand theological statement here that is completely escaping me right now.

The only thing I can think is that you're implying that Jesus is not fully God.

 

[Wrangler]

If you do not understand "Let us make man in Our Image, according to Our Likeness - in Genesis
and how God reveals who HE/Elohim is in the lives of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then you cannot understand Exodus 3
where God declares Himself as 3 Persons of the Godhead.

God never declares Himself as 3 Persons of the Godhead. If you do not understand "You shall have no other gods before me", then you cannot understand how God declares himself the LORD alone in the most important commandment.


“Listen, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone
Deuteronomy 6:4


29 Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD.
Mark 12:29

 

[marks]

Yes??

I must be missing something or this thread is clearly above my paygrade.

Im sure there is a grand theological statement here that is completely escaping me right now.

The only thing I can think is that you're implying that Jesus is not fully God.

You aren't missing anything.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

The only thing I can think is that you're implying that Jesus is not fully God.

Jesus is not God, fully or otherwise. The way we know this is that Jesus died.

From Scripture, God the Father is associated many, many times. NEVER in Scripture is Jesus referred to as God the Son. Jesus said this over and over again, that his Father is God. Jesus is, as I am, a son of God. He remains the only son resurrected in a glorified body. And of course, God gave him all authority. Jesus did not send himself. God, the only true God, sent Jesus. How else can you interpret such Scriptures as John 17:3?


And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.
John 17:3

 

[Wynona]

Jesus is not God, fully or otherwise. The way we know this is that Jesus died.

From Scripture, God the Father is associated many, many times. NEVER in Scripture is Jesus referred to as God the Son. Jesus said this over and over again, that his Father is God. Jesus is, as I am, a son of God. He remains the only son resurrected in a glorified body. And of course, God gave him all authority. Jesus did not send himself. God, the only true God, sent Jesus. How else can you interpret such Scriptures as John 17:3?


And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.
John 17:3

@Wrangler, what do you think of verses that state or imply that Jesus is God? Here are two.


John 10:29-30
King James Version

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

John 8:58
King James Version

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[tigger 2]

"One"
Bible writers consistently described groups of individuals as “one” figuratively in the sense of their being “united in will and purpose.” Here’s how one trinitarian reference book states it:

“‘One’ also expresses the unity between Christ and the Father (Jn 10:30), the union between believers and the Godhead, and the unity which exists among Christians (Jn 17:21; Gal. 3:28). ‘One’ further expresses singleness of purpose” - p. 844, New Bible Dictionary, (2nd ed.), 1982, Tyndale House Publ.

However, since we are concerned with a scripture written by John, we need to be assured that John (and even more specifically that Jesus as quoted by John) uses this figurative sense of “one” for groups of individuals.

Therefore, let’s examine John 17:22. “The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one [hen], just as we are one [hen].” - NASB. (Compare John 17:11. - A footnote for John 17:11 in the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985 says: “the unity is to be like that between the Father and the Son.”)

Not only is it obvious that these Christians are not equally Christ with Jesus, nor equally God with the Father, nor are they all one person, but that they are all figuratively united in “will” and “purpose” with God. That is, they agree with and carry out the Father's will.
..........................................
"I am"
None of the earliest Christian writers (even up to, and including, super-trinitarian Athanasius of the 4th century) when discussing John 8:58 taught that the ego eimi of that verse meant any more than existence. None of them considered it to be a title or name of God (or of Jesus, for that matter)! Even when trinitarians, such as Athanasius, began to come on the scene (late 3rd century or early 4th century), they still used John 8:58 only as evidence of Christ’s earlier existence. - e.g., Origen, p. 643, Vol. 4, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Roberts & Donaldson.

Isn’t it ridiculous to think that the very earliest Christian scholars, including Origen himself, who knew the scriptures and the Bible Greek language better than anyone today, had no understanding of an “I AM = title of God” concept at John 8:58, but, somehow, a few modern trinitarians have ‘discovered’ it?

The man whom Jesus had healed of blindness obviously had no knowledge of such a meaning (He identified himself by saying, ‘I AM [ego eimi]’.) - John 9:9, see interlinears. And even if he had made such a "terrible, blasphemous" slip of the tongue, the Jews who had come to question him would certainly not have ignored it as they did! And the Bible writer himself (the Apostle John) would not have written such an account without making it perfectly clear that this terrible “blasphemer” had paid dearly for his “evil” deed!

And, again, the Apostle Paul would never make such a statement (Acts 26:29; 1 Cor. 15:10) if it could possibly be understood in such a blasphemous way! “I AM” simply could not have been understood by the Bible writers as a designation for God!

See post #39 above.

 

[Wynona]

"One"
Bible writers consistently described groups of individuals as “one” figuratively in the sense of their being “united in will and purpose.” Here’s how one trinitarian reference book states it:

“‘One’ also expresses the unity between Christ and the Father (Jn 10:30), the union between believers and the Godhead, and the unity which exists among Christians (Jn 17:21; Gal. 3:28). ‘One’ further expresses singleness of purpose” - p. 844, New Bible Dictionary, (2nd ed.), 1982, Tyndale House Publ.

However, since we are concerned with a scripture written by John, we need to be assured that John (and even more specifically that Jesus as quoted by John) uses this figurative sense of “one” for groups of individuals.

Therefore, let’s examine John 17:22. “The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one [hen], just as we are one [hen].” - NASB. (Compare John 17:11. - A footnote for John 17:11 in the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985 says: “the unity is to be like that between the Father and the Son.”)

Not only is it obvious that these Christians are not equally Christ with Jesus, nor equally God with the Father, nor are they all one person, but that they are all figuratively united in “will” and “purpose” with God. That is, they agree with and carry out the Father's will.
..........................................
"I am"
None of the earliest Christian writers (even up to, and including, super-trinitarian Athanasius of the 4th century) when discussing John 8:58 taught that the ego eimi of that verse meant any more than existence. None of them considered it to be a title or name of God (or of Jesus, for that matter)! Even when trinitarians, such as Athanasius, began to come on the scene (late 3rd century or early 4th century), they still used John 8:58 only as evidence of Christ’s earlier existence. - e.g., Origen, p. 643, Vol. 4, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Roberts & Donaldson.

Isn’t it ridiculous to think that the very earliest Christian scholars, including Origen himself, who knew the scriptures and the Bible Greek language better than anyone today, had no understanding of an “I AM = title of God” concept at John 8:58, but, somehow, a few modern trinitarians have ‘discovered’ it?

The man whom Jesus had healed of blindness obviously had no knowledge of such a meaning (He identified himself by saying, ‘I AM [ego eimi]’.) - John 9:9, see interlinears. And even if he had made such a "terrible, blasphemous" slip of the tongue, the Jews who had come to question him would certainly not have ignored it as they did! And the Bible writer himself (the Apostle John) would not have written such an account without making it perfectly clear that this terrible “blasphemer” had paid dearly for his “evil” deed!

And, again, the Apostle Paul would never make such a statement (Acts 26:29; 1 Cor. 15:10) if it could possibly be understood in such a blasphemous way! “I AM” simply could not have been understood by the Bible writers as a designation for God!

See post #39 above.

Okay, that is a nice argument.

 

[marks]

Not only is it obvious that these Christians are not equally Christ with Jesus, nor equally God with the Father, nor are they all one person, but that they are all figuratively united in “will” and “purpose” with God. That is, they agree with and carry out the Father's will.

Is that all it is? Because I thought there was more to our relationship with Jesus . . .

Ephesians 5:29-32 KJV
29) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32) This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Maybe there's more to this?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And, again, the Apostle Paul would never make such a statement (Acts 26:29; 1 Cor. 15:10) if it could possibly be understood in such a blasphemous way! “I AM” simply could not have been understood by the Bible writers as a designation for God!

Before Abraham was, I am.

The grammar there is completely wrong unless Jesus is eternal. And why were they trying to stone Him?

You are correct about the words themself, "ego eimi", I am. But in this place that's not the point. The tense of the verb, there's the issue.

Before Abraham was, I am.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

You aren't missing anything.

Much love!

lol - you beat me to it - thanks

 

[ChristisGod]

@Wrangler, what do you think of verses that state or imply that Jesus is God? Here are two.


John 10:29-30
King James Version

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

John 8:58
King James Version

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

he will deny those as well since he denies the ones where the Apostles directly call Him God.

 

[David in NJ]

marks, Wynona,

he will deny those as well since he denies the ones where the Apostles directly call Him God.

Mr Salmon man - i am taking my two sons to Lake Ontario in the next few days - please pray for a bountiful trip for us - thank you

 

[ChristisGod]

marks, Wynona,


Mr Salmon man - i am taking my two sons to Lake Ontario in the next few days - please pray for a bountiful trip for us - thank you

That sounds like a great trip I sure will. My kids have some great memories fishing with me over the years. In fact a couple years ago before my daughter got married I took all my adult children and 1 grandson and a son in law on a salmon trip with a guide on the Feather River in California and everyone caught nice salmon that day. I have some nice video footage of the trip. I will be praying for a great trip with your sons.

 

[ChristisGod]

That sounds like a great trip I sure will. My kids have some great memories fishing with me over the years. In fact a couple years ago before my daughter got married I took all my adult children and 1 grandson and a son in law on a salmon trip with a guide on the Feather River in California and everyone caught nice salmon that day. I have some nice video footage of the trip. I will be praying for a great trip with your sons.

My son and daughter were around 10 or 11 in these pics

 

[ChristisGod]

And here he is now carrying on the tradition in Tennessee

 

[David in NJ]

"One"
Bible writers consistently described groups of individuals as “one” figuratively in the sense of their being “united in will and purpose.” Here’s how one trinitarian reference book states it:

“‘One’ also expresses the unity between Christ and the Father (Jn 10:30), the union between believers and the Godhead, and the unity which exists among Christians (Jn 17:21; Gal. 3:28). ‘One’ further expresses singleness of purpose” - p. 844, New Bible Dictionary, (2nd ed.), 1982, Tyndale House Publ.

However, since we are concerned with a scripture written by John, we need to be assured that John (and even more specifically that Jesus as quoted by John) uses this figurative sense of “one” for groups of individuals.

Therefore, let’s examine John 17:22. “The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one [hen], just as we are one [hen].” - NASB. (Compare John 17:11. - A footnote for John 17:11 in the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985 says: “the unity is to be like that between the Father and the Son.”)

Not only is it obvious that these Christians are not equally Christ with Jesus, nor equally God with the Father, nor are they all one person, but that they are all figuratively united in “will” and “purpose” with God. That is, they agree with and carry out the Father's will.
..........................................
"I am"
None of the earliest Christian writers (even up to, and including, super-trinitarian Athanasius of the 4th century) when discussing John 8:58 taught that the ego eimi of that verse meant any more than existence. None of them considered it to be a title or name of God (or of Jesus, for that matter)! Even when trinitarians, such as Athanasius, began to come on the scene (late 3rd century or early 4th century), they still used John 8:58 only as evidence of Christ’s earlier existence. - e.g., Origen, p. 643, Vol. 4, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Roberts & Donaldson.

Isn’t it ridiculous to think that the very earliest Christian scholars, including Origen himself, who knew the scriptures and the Bible Greek language better than anyone today, had no understanding of an “I AM = title of God” concept at John 8:58, but, somehow, a few modern trinitarians have ‘discovered’ it?

The man whom Jesus had healed of blindness obviously had no knowledge of such a meaning (He identified himself by saying, ‘I AM [ego eimi]’.) - John 9:9, see interlinears. And even if he had made such a "terrible, blasphemous" slip of the tongue, the Jews who had come to question him would certainly not have ignored it as they did! And the Bible writer himself (the Apostle John) would not have written such an account without making it perfectly clear that this terrible “blasphemer” had paid dearly for his “evil” deed!

And, again, the Apostle Paul would never make such a statement (Acts 26:29; 1 Cor. 15:10) if it could possibly be understood in such a blasphemous way! “I AM” simply could not have been understood by the Bible writers as a designation for God!

See post #39 above.

Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness - God wasn't talking to the angels.

You do not understand "Let us make man in Our Image, according to Our Likeness - in Genesis
God reveals who HE/Elohim is in the lives of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Without this understanding you cannot properly understand Exodus 3: 1-15
Elohim (Gods) said to Moses I AM that I AM....Exodus 3:14
Elohim also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the Elohim of your fathers—the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.
Your understanding of scripture does not agree with Scripture - Scripture cannot lie

Genesis is the foundation for understanding.

Right now you lack this understanding and therefor all your attempts will be futile, for Elohim has spoken and you seek to deny His Words.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30

 

[David in NJ]

My son and daughter were around 10 or 11 in these pics

Awesome - thank you - this is first time for my youngest son Daniel 14. This is very special for him - he is deaf. Thank You for the Prayers

 

[ChristisGod]

Awesome - thank you - this is first time for my youngest son Daniel 14. This is very special for him - he is deaf. Thank You for the Prayers

Well I'm exited for your trip and I'm sure it will be a memorable one !!!