For example Rev.3:5. Was Paul even concerned about being rejected in the end?
Impossible to lose one's salvation?
Old, at a loss, Jack
Impossible to lose one's salvation?
Old, at a loss, Jack
Do we need to be concerned with loss of salvation warnings?
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Paul rejected?.........nah...not Paul........really?
Thank God there was a Paul..................for..........us men............are all Pauls.
It's better you never knew me than to have known me and walked away
How can someone who has known God walk away?.......I find it hard to believe they ever knew Him.
Maybe that kind of person thought they knew God....but was that good enough for God?
WOW!!!!!!!!! we should be like Job......kill my entire family and finances...and I'll still serve you.
Ol Jack............that's probably not want you were askin......but hey......that's all that came to mind.
Throw us another one................I'm like a dog waitin for the ball to be thrown :)
Thank God there was a Paul..................for..........us men............are all Pauls.
It's better you never knew me than to have known me and walked away
How can someone who has known God walk away?.......I find it hard to believe they ever knew Him.
Maybe that kind of person thought they knew God....but was that good enough for God?
WOW!!!!!!!!! we should be like Job......kill my entire family and finances...and I'll still serve you.
Ol Jack............that's probably not want you were askin......but hey......that's all that came to mind.
Throw us another one................I'm like a dog waitin for the ball to be thrown :)
We are all inadequate. A natural response would be to question the love of God. If I regularly angered my dad, I would question if he still loved me.
But the Lord does not operate on such terms. "Many are called, yet few are chosen", true, but God "desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Your salvation is not something anyone should worry about except God. Salvation is God's responsibility. Do not take it upon yourself to glorify yourself, simply glorify God and leave the rest to your benevolent Creator.
But the Lord does not operate on such terms. "Many are called, yet few are chosen", true, but God "desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Your salvation is not something anyone should worry about except God. Salvation is God's responsibility. Do not take it upon yourself to glorify yourself, simply glorify God and leave the rest to your benevolent Creator.
Thank you again brother Tex!Tex said:
You caused me to recall my first Church experience long ago. When I question whether or not I'll be saved at the end, his response was: "If you were truly saved then you could never lose your salvation" which was music to my sinful ears after my instant of faith and baptism, ie, I liked it!
They told me to get into John and be sure that I could never lose my salvation, however during the week Bible studies we were in ICor. I know I referenced ICor.9:27, "I myself should be rejected," where we were in ICor.4:4, "For I am conscious of nothing against myself; yet hereby I am not justified;..." (My present rendition). Fast forward....after repeatedly questioning the latter passage resulted in their saying: "Maybe you should think about finding another Church to fellowship with." Fast forward again....i did, and they said that the latter passage is where Paul was referring to the final verdict which the Lord will pronounce which is still in the future for him as is for us, ie, final acquittal at the last day.
This made more sense to me....at my moment of faith, acquitted looking forward to awaking in the Kingdom of God upon my passing, and the final verdict at the future Return of the Godman Jesus.
My end point: What Paul says is that men must not usurp our Lord's judgment seat, and judge the Lord's ministers according to their own wisdom here in ICor.4:4.
Only Jack's opinion
btw ICor.9:27 comports perfectly with the latter passage from my view.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Salvation is a process and instantaneous at the same time. Here is a comparison, my neice used to wet the bed and it lasted til she was about 12. One day, she didnt - it was a complete salvation moment for her - but then it started again - it ended up taking another period of time before she was consistantly saved from periodical humiliation and demoralization, but finally she weathered the storm. Now, some parents blame the kid and even try to spank out the behavior, but it doesnt work because in most cases it is caused by anatomy that is not fully formed (yes, in rare cases it is connected to sexual abuse). You have to literally allow your body to grow out of it (now we have medicine that helps). Unfortunately, my neice was the hardest on herself - she tried everything and especially superstitious stuff to try and stop, to no avail.
Anyway, salvation works the same way - it is out of our control and it takes time. Should we be afraid to lose it? Well it would be frightening, but when you outgrow something it is pretty hard to go backwards
There is a reason the women was healed when she touched Jesus's robe beyond Gods obvious power to heal - it was her faith that God could and would fix her body. My neice had faith that she would be fixed by God to or she would have given up.
Anyway, salvation works the same way - it is out of our control and it takes time. Should we be afraid to lose it? Well it would be frightening, but when you outgrow something it is pretty hard to go backwards
There is a reason the women was healed when she touched Jesus's robe beyond Gods obvious power to heal - it was her faith that God could and would fix her body. My neice had faith that she would be fixed by God to or she would have given up.
Salvation is a process..but why go through the process......people choose to go through the process...don't have time for processes :)
But...it can be instantaneous for all.....if only they would seek......and be confirmed they are saved..........so they can go on with
their lives as Jesus has had waiting for them since birth.
Process equals slow growth.....it's like digging for a gold nugget 100 feet deep with a table spoon.....when ya could of lit the fuse.....and
got to it quicker.
But hey...that's just me...........when I see somethin....i go after it....with all that's within me.....
I chased the Lord down...................He had no other choice to tell and show me i was saved.
Thank you Jesus!
HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But...it can be instantaneous for all.....if only they would seek......and be confirmed they are saved..........so they can go on with
their lives as Jesus has had waiting for them since birth.
Process equals slow growth.....it's like digging for a gold nugget 100 feet deep with a table spoon.....when ya could of lit the fuse.....and
got to it quicker.
But hey...that's just me...........when I see somethin....i go after it....with all that's within me.....
I chased the Lord down...................He had no other choice to tell and show me i was saved.
Thank you Jesus!
HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
That is fine Randor, but it seems to me that refining takes time - most things of value do. Like I said, I believe salvation is instantaneous and slow. I think the danger of preaching instantaneous salvation to those who are on the slow track is that people who do not experience it 'right now' think it is their fault. Finally, since my definition of salvation is being saved from the death of loving selfishly, i tend to believe consistent salvation is only possible in Heaven.
What the?........................all this time I thought....since I'm saved......now I can get my glorious body, when I get to paradise or heaven or where ever it's waitin for me.
Right when I thought i had it all figured out.........then BAM!!!!!! I've got to start over...it will take me more years than i have to live to get this one straight..........crossin fingers and goin for it..........or????????? are you people wanting my glorious body for yourselves and sending me down a different path?
I know my glorious body is pretty hot! HA!!!!!!!! this is what i will do.....dear Lord...make these people live longer than me....so they don't beat me to my glorious body......I've seen Ol Jacks and Aspen's new body....I guess i see why they'd be after mine.
Right when I thought i had it all figured out.........then BAM!!!!!! I've got to start over...it will take me more years than i have to live to get this one straight..........crossin fingers and goin for it..........or????????? are you people wanting my glorious body for yourselves and sending me down a different path?
I know my glorious body is pretty hot! HA!!!!!!!! this is what i will do.....dear Lord...make these people live longer than me....so they don't beat me to my glorious body......I've seen Ol Jacks and Aspen's new body....I guess i see why they'd be after mine.
Yes, well said. It's unfortunate that so many Christians think of salvation as a 2 minute prayer that one prays. Many people come to know the love of God through Christ Jesus through such a simple prayer and certainly it alludes to the parable Jesus taught of the man who beat his breast and cried out "Have mercy on me, a sinner" and walked away justified. But people are different, come from different backgrounds, and approach God in their own unique way. God relentlessly pursues every person enticing them into a love relationship with him that will extend into eternity. Some people spend their entire lives running from God, but actually the more they run, the closer they get to Him, for the Hound of Heaven does not give up on us. Some people may never come to say a "sinner's prayer", but may yet find God in a way that will be fully revealed in the next life. I loathe the teaching that God is trying to make heaven inaccessible by implementing a precise and rigid format, making the sinners prayer almost like a magical incantation without which being saved is impossible.aspen said:
My criticism of OSAS aside, in their defense, those who believe it don't think of it that way.Dan57 said:I don' know... This OSAS doctrine just sounds like a license to sin to me.
I actually disagree, and this is my primary logic argument against a purgatory. Salvation reconciles us to God so that we are again the perfect human creations He intended. In life, our faith progresses, but we are always having to pray "I do believe, help me with my unbelief". Our faith should be like Christ's, and He had infinite faith in the Lord. If we keep progressing, we'll need an infinite amount of time to get to the perfection we should have, and we'll never actually get there.aspen said:
Progressing to infinity is impossible, so if we are to have no absence of faith in the Lord, we will not simply progress to it. Instead, it must be an instantaneous gift.
The gift will be received by all at resurrection when we can be loving, faithful sons and daughters of God in our full human capacity.
[SIZE=medium]We are not in heaven yet, but we do possess a birthright (like Hebrews talks about) an inheritance (like peter talks about) that cannot be taken away, stolen or taken back even by God. BUT since it is truly ours we can like Esau sell it or give it away. If we cannot sell it or give it away than it is not truly ours. The reason some people are like Esau and sell their birthright for little is because there is the perceived pleasures of sin that are immediate as compared to heaven which they think is way off in the future for them. People naturally like to be loved for how they want others to perceive them to be and really do not like the idea of having to humble themselves to the point of continuing to accept pure charity. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]We are not in heaven yet, but we do possess a birthright (like Hebrews talks about) an inheritance (like peter talks about) that cannot be taken away, stolen or taken back even by God. BUT since it is truly ours we can like Esau sell it or give it away. If we cannot sell it or give it away than it is not truly ours. The reason some people are like Esau and sell their birthright for little is because there is the perceived pleasures of sin that are immediate as compared to heaven which they think is way off in the future for them. People naturally like to be loved for how they want others to perceive them to be and really do not like the idea of having to humble themselves to the point of continuing to accept pure charity. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]We are not in heaven yet, but we do possess a birthright (like Hebrews talks about) an inheritance (like peter talks about) that cannot be taken away, stolen or taken back even by God. BUT since it is truly ours we can like Esau sell it or give it away. If we cannot sell it or give it away than it is not truly ours. The reason some people are like Esau and sell their birthright for little is because there is the perceived pleasures of sin that are immediate as compared to heaven which they think is way off in the future for them. People naturally like to be loved for how they want others to perceive them to be and really do not like the idea of having to humble themselves to the point of continuing to accept pure charity. [/SIZE]
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I used to work with people who had brain injuries and one of the common symptoms is difficulty with executive function - including planning and organization. There was one person who learned to remember events by writing in a journal, but it didn't seem to help. Every event was recorded in detail, but had not impact on the person's life. One clinician finally asked if the client read their journal after writing in it - that was the breakthrough moment. The person had not realized that writing events down was not valuable unless read later. Humanity reacts the same way towards God. Jesus is the living water that quenches forever - yet, even if we admit we are dying of thirst, we still have to drink.......
And it takes a lifetime to be satiated.
And it takes a lifetime to be satiated.
I'm pretending to be a lake....Lord fillllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll me up...YeeeeeeHaaaaaaa!aspen said:
Good thing your not full of yourself...our Lord cannot fill a full vessel...leave some Living water for me my brother.RANDOR said:
Old emptying out Jack
Is a license to sin something you would want to have? I have a driver's license. It allows me to drive. A license is of no use to anyone who does not want it.Dan57 said:I don' know... This OSAS doctrine just sounds like a license to sin to me.
In order to receive life, one must understand and acknowledge that he is a sinner and is in need of salvation. As well, he needs to acknowledge the sacrifice of Jesus for sin, and accept it. Those two conditions are proof that the person has understood what sin is and why it results in death. So now you are thinking that this same person is secretly going through these conditions so that he can have a license to do those things that he knows are wrong and he knows result in death, and he knows that Jesus died for them. Hmmm.
I guess what I am getting at is that there is a certain level of remorse for sin that comes into play in the very process of getting saved.
It is hardly logical to go from that to wanting a license for the same thing that produced the remorse.
A license is just another word for permission. If we had permission to sin, then there could be no such thing as chastening. But there is such a thing. Therefore if OSAS were true, then it could not override these facts. It would be entirely possible for OSAS to exist alongside chastening. It would be entirely possible for OSAS to exist without also including permission to sin.
Our own children misbehave from time to time. But there is no way that their conduct can remove them from the lineage of their parents. They are in a family because they were born into it, as we are in God's family through the new birth. Our behavior did not cause us to be born again. But as children, we are subject to rules, and subject to correction.
Your very statement reveals that you think it is possible to be un-born again if you do sin. But John said otherwise in 1John 2:1. If we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father...Jesus, who will in turn, chasten us. There is no license. Whether OSAS is real or not, there still would be no license.
Now, if we were to discuss wether a person can change his mind and turn away or fall away from the life that he had received, this enters into a whole other category. It would be about reversing the very decision process that brought about the response to God in the first place. And what is this category? Not sin. No one got saved by overcoming sin. If it were possible, then Jesus would not have needed to die for sin. No, the category starts with humility.
God gives grace to the humble. Ironically, those who are attempting to be justified by works are more in danger of losing life than those who fall into sin. Sin was dealt with at Calvary. Pride was not. Self justification was not. The Galatians were rebuked for what...sin? No. For attempting to be justified by law. Paul said they were fallen from grace. If God gives grace to the humble, then falling from it would logically be through forsaking humility and entering into its opposite frame of mind.
So, those who think that salvation can be lost through bad behavior, must by default be saying that it is maintained through good behavior. This is the real temptation that besets the believer. This is called having confidence in the flesh. Placing their confidence in what they are accomplishing rather than in what God accomplished for us on our behalf through His Son.
And in case someone disagrees with my connecting the law with this, I will remind them that sin is transgression of law. If we must maintain our salvation by not sinning, by default this is the exact same thing as keeping the law. Do we maintain our slavation by keeping the law? Or by keeping our faith? (faith being a product of humility).
Thank you for caring and response!williemac said:
Enjoyed your response and thank you again. What passage came to mind while reading was Jn.15:1-6, ie, Biblical allegory...if we don't remain in Him, going to get a little warm for forever and ever. We need to 'hear' God's righteous wrath along with His righteous grace, correct?
Old Jack
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