Hey You!
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How they agree?
Is this a question about how Saint James wants us to show him our Faith by our Works?
Trying to zero-in...
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Difficulty Reconciling
- Thread starter GracePeace
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Is this a question about how Saint James wants us to show him our Faith by our Works?
Trying to zero-in...
I'm literally asking how you all reconciled (if you have) those verses.
I did not come in with ulterior motives, or any other verses (eg, James) in mind.
Hey You!
Member
Ok. The reason I mention Saint James, is because he said, "If you Keep the Royal Law 'You shall Love your Neighbor as yourself', you are doing well"...
I think this is how Saint James reconciled your OP's Verses. We are Justified at first Belief, and we do well after this by Keeping the Royal Law...
Ok
Where I would see this as falling short would be "you are doing well" may be construed in such a way as to unhitch it from the load John has works carrying--ie, "you are doing well means God is pleased, but that doesn't mean your eternal life is decided by whether you do good".
Hey You!
Member
Well, I would just leave you with this; I can't think of anyone who will say Saint James is trying to unhitch us from Good Works...
Lurkers? What say you?
Also, James wasn't alive by the time John was written... and this has nothing to do with James.
No... ie, "you do well" may be construed as "God is pleased if you do good things,but that doesn't determine eternal life" whereas John does hitch eternal life to good works.
Hey You!
Member
You will have to rub my nose In it; where does Saint John hitch Works to Eternal Life?
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
correct , it might SEEM as a contradiction . but its not .
You are seeking to understand how they do agree .
Friend the more you read JUST the bible
it will truly come together .
In the mean time
Feel free to ask me to explain the areas you seem to want to see agreement .
IF i have the answer , i will give you the answer .
Please don't take it as me rubbing your nose in it.
John 12
50And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.
I'm in my car, on my phone, so I can't get all the verses for you now. I'll run out of time and battery if I do. Lol ttyl
Ok Now we're back to square one : the OP asks you all how you all reconciled the verses / ideas articulated therein.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
just ask some questions . this is way easier if we just do this . lets start with a question you want to see
answered . Beleive me this is quite simple .
So ask away .
Hey You!
Member
Ah!
Jesus said a lot of things about how to be made right under the Mosaic Covenant of Works, so when Jesus said things like this, he was showing people that they were unable to Keep the Law. Him saying things like this, isn't meant for Us/Church; it's meant for them/Israel...
I'll Paste my Gospel Tract about this...
Hey You!
Member
Man of two Covenants ~ by ReverendRV * July 8
Jeremiah 31:31 NLT; "The day is coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.
Before the days of Jeremiah, the last Covenant God made with Israel was the Davidic Covenant. I researched a Jewish Rabbi and he says the promised New Covenant hasn’t come yet; this means they are still waiting for a New Covenant to appear. ~ The Old Testament has a ‘Typology’; symbolism which is explained to us in the New Testament of the Bible. During the Last Supper, Jesus led his Disciples through a Jewish ritual called a Seder. He went on to teach that the Wine of the Seder symbolizes the New Covenant established by his blood; we see that Jesus believed God’s New Covenant was ratified during his lifetime. The Seder ritual was reflective of a bloody Covenant that God had previously made with Israel; the Mosaic Covenant. The Jewish Passover involved the Sacrifices of innocent lambs; and on every door that a lamb’s blood was seen, those who took refuge inside were saved from God’s Wrath…
Jesus was born under the Law of Moses; just like the rest of us. You object, “That Covenant was made with the Jews and I am not a Jew.” The Bible says that those who do the things of the Law, show that the Law is written on their hearts; this includes everybody. Have you almost stole before? You didn’t steal it but thought about it; good job! Wait a minute; thou shall not Covet anything that belongs to someone else! Coveting is stealing in your heart! If God judged you by his standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you then go to Heaven or to Hell? The New Covenant is for people who do not want to go to an eternal fiery Hell. ~ Jesus was a man of Two Covenants, the old English word for Covenant is ‘Testament’; the Old Testament and the New Testament. Jesus kept the Old Covenant and since no one else has ever kept that Righteous Requirement, he shares his achievement with all who put their Faith in him as the risen Lord God and Savior. By Grace, you now have met the Righteous standard God requires in order to be pleasing in his sight! But the sad news is that Jesus had to suffer the penalty for our Sins; an honest trade, since God detests dishonest scales. Because Jesus was now responsible for your Sin, he was nailed to a Cross and shed his blood like an innocent lamb. The Good News is that Jesus rose from the dead conquering Death and Hell for you! Read your Bible, find a Gospel Church; and praise the Lord!
Many things that Jesus said applied to keeping the Old Covenant, but other things he said applied to the New Covenant. The Gospels could easily be the last four books of the Old Testament because of Christ’s keeping the Law of Moses, and because he refined the Law in ways that show us it’s easier to break than we think. ~ This overlapping is like a handshake; the Old fingers reach across the new hand and the New fingers reach across the Old hand. To understand the Gospels, read the Book of Galatians and the rest of the New Testament Epistles; this will help you know when Jesus is speaking about Law or about Grace…
Hebrews 8:13 NET; When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.
To the contrary , in John's Gospel, He taught "as I was sent so I send you", and John 15 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love."
So just as He said "He never left Me bc I always do what pleases Him" and "Your command is eternal life, therefore [i obey]" and "eternal life is to know [God]", the same things apply to us.
Hey You!
Member
Well, that's the answer to your OP...
I get that you wouldn't like Covenant Theology, because Calvinists like it. But the Bible makes a whole lot more sense now. Ray Comfort's "The Way of the Master"'s Evangelism method is based on it (you can see my Gospel Tracts are based on this); he uses the Rich Young Ruler. The RYR asks Jesus what he must do, and Jesus says Keep the Commandments. This was the way of the Old Covenant; the RYR went away sorrowful...
I've been debating Christianity online for 20 years. What I see is what I always see; someone who will never change. I've told you something obvious, but it doesn't matter. Thanks for your time; I'll use you to speak to the Lurkers. May Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior bless you and yours...
What is? What I included in my response to you was only one side of the issue.
If that's what you think about me, I have to inform you that you don't really "get" me : as stated, I simply wanted to gather information from others, I didn't come in with prejudice, and, even in other contexts (ie, not specifically this thread/topic), I don't think to myself, "Oh, that's what Calvinists like? Well, I don't like it!" I don't care if a Calvinist/Monergist likes something--if I think it is true, I will accept it, irrespective who else affirms it.
See, I find the opposite : if I were to emphasize what you emphasize, I'd have to deny the other side of the coin, where I'm justified on an ongoing basis, and the Day of Judgment, and repaid life, by good works (we've discussed this over and over and over, so I don't need to raise the Scriptures--plus I'd prefer to stay in the Gospel of John for this discussion). John talks about this in John 5 where he says "those who have done good will be raised to life but those who have done evil will be raised to damnation".
You might say those who disagree with your conclusions emphasize the other side of the coin. That's fair.
My question has been as to how to affirm both sides of the coin, not undervaluing/underemphasizing either side.
Actually, I find Ray Comfort to be a disingenuous liar, and an ignoramus, so I'm not a fan.
That was because he loved his riches more than God--Jesus said "keep the Commands", and he really believed he had, but Jesus revealed that he hadn't, that he wasn't good, because he loved his riches more than heaven, and didn't really have a heart for heaven, as he had presumed.
Right, I've been debating Christianity online for over a decade, and I've seen the same--people who cannot, even if their life depended on it, defend their position, and, still, they don't care, they go right on ahead the same as they always have, nevermind the details, nevermind the information, nevermind the arguments, just go right on ahead despite facts.
I'm asking about something that is obscure (at least to me), not obvious--maybe that's the issue. lol
As I also always do with everyone who refuses to be honest about the issues I'm investigating but pretend to be honestly discussing--the discussion always shows them to be doing what ever they really are doing.
May God bless everyone (abiding) in Christ.
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