Did Jesus raise hiself from the dead or did God yhe father raise him

[Peterlag]

Just like there a quadrillion sects of Christianity
there are quadrillion sects of translations and bibles.

But there is only one word of God.

And you ain't it.

I gave you the Greek word and it does not mean power. It's authority and that's the way the word has been used for many years. Even today we may say a person has the power of attorney. It means it's a legal document you create that gives someone else legal authority to act on your behalf. It does not mean your attorney can raise you from the dead.

 

[Peterlag]

I am not accountable for your words. You should be worried.

And I don't care what you gave me. I know the outcome of all this beforehand.

And that is all that counts to me.

You believe a lie

 

[Peterlag]

No, I didn't believe you.

The Catholics taught you this non-sense. Perhaps you are Catholic.

 

[Peterlag]

You should forsake and depart from your own wisdom.
It will destroy you.

This is not my own wisdom. It's the study of history...

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[PinSeeker]

I just saw this on page 233...

It's funny how Christians try to use Philippians 2 as proof of the Trinity... They have no clue that by quoting it.... They deny their own Doctrine!!!

Yeah, I would avoid... well, not to name names, so, "that guy"... and his penchant for posting what can only be described as silliness. :)

Now to the second phrase in Philippians 2 that causes a difficulty...

There is no difficulty, except for people like you who create it by twisting the text into something other than it is.

...says Jesus Christ "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped...

Right, which, how could He regard anything, much less equality with God, if He was not already intimately acquainted with it and... have it in full? So He always did... and does, and always will. And one day, every knee will bow and every tongue confess Who Christ really is and worship Him as they ought. The other difficulty that many create with this concerns this grasping ~ it's not in the sense of "obtaining," or "robbing," but of wielding, of using for one's own gain, which is the very essence of emptying oneself and complete humility, which is exactly Paul's point there in Philippians 2.

has everything to

It ought to be clear by now that this is the exact opposite of what is meant.

It's clear that you think that, yes.

The whole context of the passage is about being humble, putting God's will and glory first, and serving others’ interest above one's own interest.

Sure. This is what I just said. However... see above.

Although he was in "the form of God" Jesus did not reckon his God-given status as something to be exploited.

Well, okay, change "God-given status" to "status from eternity past" and we're on the same page. Jesus does, after all, pray to the Father ~ with absolute confidence ~ that He (the Father) restore to Him (Jesus) the glory that He (Jesus) had with Him (the Father) before the world existed (John 17:5).

This meaning contrast well with the conduct of Adam who unfortunately did consider equality with God anything to be grasped at.

Ah, the misunderstanding of "grasped" here that I expounded on above... In Eden, Peterlag, Eve was deceived (Genesis 3:13, and especially 1 Timothy 2:14, where Paul explicitly says "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived"), not Adam, into thinking she might not die, as God had told Adam in Genesis 2:17, and instead be like God, knowing good and evil. What Adam failed to do is correct her and keep her from disobeying God and sinning. Adam knew very well he couldn't obtain likeness or equality with God, but rather knew that God was God (Creator) and he was man (creature).

Adam wanted to be like God as Genesis 3:5 teaches.

See above.

Adam tried to grasp at equality with God.

Nope. See above. You're reading into the text, something we should not do. But hey, you're your own person, certainly.

But Jesus would not usurp God's authority for selfish advantage.

Again... Change "usurp" to 'employ' or 'use' and we're good. :)

He "emptied himself" of all such Messianic privileges.

Set them aside, as in ~ in this is what Paul says ~ though He was in the form of God... so God Himself... he took the form of a servant and thus in the likeness of men... so (also) man Himself.

Therefore, it can be categorically stated that Philippians 2: 5-11 has nothing to do with Jesus Christ being God in a preexistence state... No preexistence of Christ before the world with an independent significance can be recognized even in Philippians 2.

It can, and it does. See above. The most curious thing here is that you seem to be, really, not that far away, and actually maybe pretty close... that you are at least somewhat battling yourself on this (and maybe some other things) and don't even realize it.

Grace and peace to you, Peterlag.

 

[Peterlag]

Yeah, I would avoid... well, not to name names, so, "that guy"... and his penchant for posting what can only be described as silliness. :)


There is no difficulty, except for people like you who create it by twisting the text into something other than it is.


Right, which, how could He regard anything, much less equality with God, if He was not already intimately acquainted with it and... have it in full? So He always did... and does, and always will. And one day, every knee will bow and every tongue confess Who Christ really is and worship Him as they ought. The other difficulty that many create with this concerns this grasping ~ it's not in the sense of "obtaining," or "robbing," but of wielding, of using for one's own gain, which is the very essence of emptying oneself and complete humility, which is exactly Paul's point there in Philippians 2.

has everything to

It's clear that you think that, yes.


Sure. This is what I just said. However... see above.


Well, okay, change "God-given status" to "status from eternity past" and we're on the same page. Jesus does, after all, pray to the Father ~ with absolute confidence ~ that He (the Father) restore to Him (Jesus) the glory that He (Jesus) had with Him (the Father) before the world existed (John 17:5).


Ah, the misunderstanding of "grasped" here that I expounded on above... In Eden, Peterlag, Eve was deceived (Genesis 3:13, and especially 1 Timothy 2:14, where Paul explicitly says "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived"), not Adam, into thinking she might not die, as God had told Adam in Genesis 2:17, and instead be like God, knowing good and evil. What Adam failed to do is correct her and keep her from disobeying God and sinning. Adam knew very well he couldn't obtain likeness or equality with God, but rather knew that God was God (Creator) and he was man (creature).


See above.


Nope. See above. You're reading into the text, something we should not do. But hey, you're your own person, certainly.


Again... Change "usurp" to 'employ' or 'use' and we're good. :)


Set them aside, as in ~ in this is what Paul says ~ though He was in the form of God... so God Himself... he took the form of a servant and thus in the likeness of men... so (also) man Himself.


It can, and it does. See above. The most curious thing here is that you seem to be, really, not that far away, and actually maybe pretty close... that you are at least somewhat battling yourself on this (and maybe some other things) and don't even realize it.

Grace and peace to you, Peterlag.

There has to be a reason why folks want to think Jesus is God. I once asked on another forum what would be the reason for that? What does it produce to have Jesus be God. The forum was up for months and thousands read it and hundreds tried to answer that one simple question but nobody could. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

P.S. Does anyone have a verse anywhere that says God humbled Himself?

 

[keltzkroz]

There has to be a reason why folks want to think Jesus is God.

To some Jesus is their God. Who is Jesus to you?

 

[PinSeeker]

There has to be a reason why folks want to think Jesus is God.

Sure. Because He is.

I once asked on another forum what would be the reason for that? What does it produce to have Jesus be God.

My answer would be that that question itself is very... misguided. :)

The forum was up for months and thousands read it and hundreds tried to answer that one simple question but nobody could.

I'm sure that's true, because, again, the question itself is so misguided. The question is ~ from our perspective ~ why is it so important, to "to us," but for us, that Jesus is God? And that question is easily answerable. I guess it's easy to get that answer wrong, but that's true of most all things. Still, though, easily answerable; the Bible certainly does that. Over and over and over, and in many ways.

Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.”

Sure. And how can this be true? There is only one Way. And that is at least getting to the answer to the correct question above.

Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind...

...and actually accomplish redemption and reconcile to God, yes. And there you go. Only One Who is both God and man, can mediate between the two, as Paul says:

"...that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time" (1 Timothy 2:2-6).​

Paul is surely not differentiating, but acknowledging the singularity of this God and Mediator.

Does anyone have a verse anywhere that says God humbled Himself?

That Jesus emptied Himself, Peterlag, as Paul says explicitly in Philippians 2:7, specifically speaks to that humility, which he clarifies in Philippians 2:8, that He humbled Himself, and this is just after, in the same sentence, Paul said He, Jesus, was God ~ in the form of, 'morphe,' meaning the thing itself.

Sigh... Like Stuart Smalley (Al Franken, on Saturday Night Live) once said, "Denial is not just a river in Egypt." :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Peterlag]

Sure. Because He is.


My answer would be that that question itself is very... misguided. :)


I'm sure that's true, because, again, the question itself is so misguided. The question is ~ from our perspective ~ why is it so important, to "to us," but for us, that Jesus is God? And that question is easily answerable. I guess it's easy to get that answer wrong, but that's true of most all things. Still, though, easily answerable; the Bible certainly does that. Over and over and over, and in many ways.


Sure. And how can this be true? There is only one Way. And that is at least getting to the answer to the correct question above.


...and actually accomplish redemption and reconcile to God, yes. And there you go. Only One Who is both God and man, can mediate between the two, as Paul says:

"...that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time" (1 Timothy 2:2-6).​

Paul is surely not differentiating, but acknowledging the singularity of this God and Mediator.


That Jesus emptied Himself, Peterlag, as Paul says explicitly in Philippians 2:7, specifically speaks to that humility, which he clarifies in Philippians 2:8, that He humbled Himself, and this is just after, in the same sentence, Paul said He, Jesus, was God ~ in the form of, 'morphe,' meaning the thing itself.

Sigh... Like Stuart Smalley (Al Franken, on Saturday Night Live) once said, "Denial is not just a river in Egypt." :)

Grace and peace to you.

Um, did you ever consider that there is one God, and there is one Mediator (who is not the one God) between that God and men?

A note on this "morphe" you mentioned...

Vine’s Lexicon has under “form” “properly the nature or essence, not in the abstract, but as actually subsisting in the individual… it does not include in itself anything ‘accidental’ or separable, such as particular modes of manifestation.” Using lexicons like Vine’s, Trinitarians boldly make the case that the “nature” underlying Jesus’ human body was God. Trinitarian scholars like Vine contrast morphē, which they assert refers to an “inner essential nature” with schema, (in Phil. 2:8, and translated “fashion”) which they assert refers to the outward appearance. We admit that there are many Trinitarian scholars who have written lexical entries or articles on the Greek word morphē and concluded that Christ must be God. A Trinitarian wanting to prove his point can quote from a number of them. However, we assert that these definitions are biased and erroneous. In addition, we could not find any non-Trinitarian scholars who agreed with the conclusion of the Trinitarian scholars, while many Trinitarian sources agree that morphē refers to the outward appearance and not an inner nature.

 

[Peterlag]

To some Jesus is their God. Who is Jesus to you?

The Messiah who God made both Lord and Christ when He raised him out from among the dead.

 

[keltzkroz]

The Messiah who God made both Lord and Christ when He raised him out from among the dead.

Do you worship your Messiah?

 

[Peterlag]

Do you worship your Messiah?

What is worship?

 

[keltzkroz]

What is worship?

Alright let's try an easier question for you?

Do you obey the commandments of your Messiah?

 

[Aunty Jane]

To some Jesus is their God. Who is Jesus to you?

If I may chime in here......people have been taught that Jesus is their god by a very corrupted and divided “church” system. No scripture ever quoted Jesus as saying he was God incarnate. In fact it was never necessary for Jesus to be God in order to pay for what Adam did. There is no valid reason for ever assuming that to be true.

Jesus is called “the last Adam” (1 Cor 15:45) because he had to be the exact equivalent of the human that caused his children to inherit sin. By paying a “life for a life”, the man Jesus had to be 100% mortal human, laying down his sinless life to buy back the sinless life that Adam took from all his progeny.

If people understood the principle of redemption, they would understand why God never needed to become a mortal human to undo the consequences of Adam’s sin. Indeed it was impossible for him to do so.

Under Israel’s law, if a man got into debt, he had to go into service for the one to whom he was indebted, until he paid it all back. If the man had a family to support, one or more of his children would work for the creditor until the debt was paid. If a generous benefactor wanted to cancel the debt by paying it in full, he could do so, releasing the man or his children from the debt.

God is that benefactor, who “sent” his son to pay for the release of Adam’s children. It was God himself to whom the debt was owed, but out of love, he sent his own son to cancel it, according to his perfect justice.

Under God’s law, one who deliberately sinned and caused the death of others, forfeited their own life. Adam died for his own sin because that was the penalty for his disobedience, but the sin passed on to his children was not their fault, (Rom 5:12) so God in his mercy, sent his son to pay for their release from sin and death by dying instead of them. (Gal 3:13)

As an immortal, God cannot die, nor can mere humans kill God. “The only true God” “sent” his son to pay the ransom demanded, (John 17:3) so that his first purpose for humankind could ultimately be fulfilled.

What was God’s first purpose for humans on this planet? Was there ever mentioned a ‘natural’ cause of death to Adam? What does Genesis tell us about that? Do you know?

Who was Jesus?.....he was who HE said he was.....”the son of God” (John 10:31-36)....never was he ever called “God the Son”. That title was invented by the Roman Catholic church which was a fusion of pagan Roman sun worship, with threads of weakened “Christianity” imposed by an astute Emperor who simply wanted to consolidate his religiously divided empire by forming one state religion that included elements of both religious systems to please all of his constituents. This is the mother “church” from which all of Christendom descended. Bad foundations will result in a complete collapse of that very reprehensible and irreparably divided religious system.

No doctrine that came out of the RCC was ever scriptural, hence their rejection of “sola Scriptura”.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Alright let's try an easier question for you?

Do you obey the commandments of your Messiah?

Why cant YOU simply answer the question? What is “worship”? Please tell us what you think it means?
Then tell us what it meant in Greek....

 

[keltzkroz]

If I may chime in here......people have been taught that Jesus is their god by a very corrupted and divided “church” system.

Really? You believe that the reason Jesus is my God is because
I have been taught that Jesus is my God by a very corrupted and divided “church” system?

(I can't speak for the others but I can speak for me)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Really? You believe that the reason Jesus is my God is because
I have been taught that Jesus is my God by a very corrupted and divided “church” system?

(I can't speak for the others but I can speak for me)

You just arrived here and already your signature is indicating an attitude problem.
If you can speak for yourself then do so. We are listening....

Your signature indicates that you are judgmental and that you are a racist.....how is that presenting as a Christian?
If you hate workers of iniquity, then put your hatred where God does.....he hates liars and those who twist scripture. The ‘mother church’ who formed the very foundations upon which Christendom is built, did both.

It is becoming apparent that you like to ask questions but cannot answer them directly. Why the deflection?
Are you here to discuss scripture or just to promote what you believe scripture says?

 

[keltzkroz]

What is “worship”? Please tell us what you think it means?
Then tell us what it meant in Greek....

I worship this scripture:
1 Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach,
nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I think it means the same thing any other language.

 

[keltzkroz]

You just arrived here and already your signature is indicating an attitude problem.
If you can speak for yourself then do so. We are listening....

Your signature indicates that you are judgmental and that you are a racist.....how is that presenting as a Christian?
If you hate workers of iniquity, then put your hatred where God does.....he hates liars and those who twist scripture. The ‘mother church’ who formed the very foundations upon which Christendom is built, did both.

It is becoming apparent that you like to ask questions but cannot answer them directly. Why the deflection?
Are you here to discuss scripture or just to promote what you believe scripture says?

Are you a sinner? Or are you a holy sinner?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I worship this scripture:
1 Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach,
nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I think it means the same thing any other language.

Now that is hilarious!

Do you even know what that scripture is talking about?
Do you take all scripture at face value with no study at all?

Your avatar is young but I get the impression that you are ‘old school’ and very set in old perceptions because they suit your outdated and seemingly very hostile personality.....