Did Jesus raise hiself from the dead or did God yhe father raise him

[PinSeeker]

One of the things God cannot do is die.

Right, but if He makes Himself a man but still retains is deity in full... which He did... He can lay His life down, and then take it up again... which He also did. :)

Again, the answer to the question in the original post (and adding the Holy Spirit to the question) ~ "Did Jesus raise Himself from the dead or did God the father raise Him or did the Holy Spirit raise Him?" ~ the answer is a resounding yes. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: Did Jesus Raise Himself or did His Father Raise Him?

Actually The Entire Triune GodHead Raised God, The SON, From the dead:

(1) God, The Father, Raised His SON From the dead!:

"Whom God Hath Raised Up, Having Loosed the pains of death:
because it was not possible that He should be holden of it!"

(Acts_2:24 cp Acts_2:32, Acts_3:15, Acts_3:26, Acts_10:40,
Acts_13:30, Acts_13:34, Acts_7:31; Romans_4:24, 6:4,
Romans_8:11; Ephesians_1:20; 1_Corinthians 6:14;
2_Corinthians 4:14; Hebrews_13:20; 1_Peter 1:21)

2) The Lord Jesus Christ Raised Himself From The Dead!

"Jesus Answered And Said Unto them, Destroy This Temple, and in
three days I Will Raise It Up!...But He Spake Of The Temple Of His Body!"
(John_2:19, John_2:21 cp John_10:17-18)

3) The Holy Spirit Raised Jesus Christ From The Dead!

"But if The Spirit Of Him That Raised Up Jesus From the dead
Dwell in you, He That Raised up Christ from the dead Shall Also
Quicken your mortal bodies By His Spirit That Dwelleth In you."
(Romans_8:11 cp Acts_2:24, Acts_2:32; 1 Peter_3:18)

Amen.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Long story short.....Jehovah found me, sending his servants to give me the good news of his kingdom, and he opened up his truth to me. I am now a perpetual Bible student....and I will never graduate from this educational training, thinking that I know it all....the more I learn, the more I realize how much more there is to learn. It is my privilege to impart knowledge to others who also want to learn the truth and come into God’s earthly family of worshippers, who all believe the same truth. (1 Cor 1:10)

Praise the Lord. This is encouraging. :)

Yes I agree, and for one who reads hearts, he also knows when one is a lost cause. Jehovah did not send Jesus to the religious leaders, but to “the lost sheep” for whom those negligent shepherds had no affection at all. But once enlightened, there is no going back....you cannot unlearn the truth.

Yes, this is insightful in my opinion.

If we are grieving...imagine how Jehovah and Jesus feel....? Isn’t that why Christ sent his servants out to preach? It was a ‘search and rescue mission’, one that was to continue “all the days, until the end of the age”, which we believe is fast approaching. So who is out there with the good news, searching for the lost sheep? Any of the churches?

I can't say. I wish I knew. I am not one to generalize about the entire body of Christ. But since you aren't the first to ask this important question, I also wonder about the state of the church today.

In all my years as a dedicated Christian, I have never been visited by any church member who came to give me “the good news of the kingdom”......and in speaking to many professed “Christians”, I came to understand why......they have no idea what God’s kingdom is, and what it will accomplish in the big picture....they have no big picture! They have nothing to tell people......they have no idea why we are here, and what God intends the future of planet Earth to be, yet it is all there in the Bible.

I remember when the pastor used to come to the door. And maybe some of them still do that. But like you, I haven't seen any for a long time. Even the JWs no longer come to the door. I don't know, maybe they have a list. :)

The trouble is, the churches of Christendom spoon feed people who have never been encouraged to study the Bible for themselves. They give the impression that you need college degrees to understand the scriptures and that you must just listen to them because they have studied “theology”....which is more about promoting man-made doctrines than it is about God or the Bible. Why did Jesus reject the Pharisees? He said...”It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” (Matt 15.7-9)

I agree with you. I don't think pastors and elders purposely set out to reduce the amount of Bible study, but I know some pastors inadvertently model this attitude from the pulpit, as you suggest. And those in the pews subconsciously draw the wrong conclusions about the accessibility of the Bible. This is unfortunate, and I pray that the Holy Spirit will help correct this situation.

It’s the difference between someone who is already set in their minds, (as though in concrete) and one who has beliefs that are not so set that they lose their power of reason.

I hear you. I suspect this is a professional hazard among pastors and teachers who get paid by a denomination. It would be a conflict of interest to teach a doctrine that contradicts the confession of the denomination. Only the courageous will attempt to maintain integrity.

Some reject God outright, (today more than ever) and some figure that a little religion is a bit like insurance.....you get what you pay for....and still others dive in up to their necks in their religious traditions and rituals thinking that God will reward such devotion....but it’s given to the church and not to God, who demands no rituals or traditions at all.

Good point.

The ones God is looking for are those who just want “the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”....no matter how much they have to give up (or sacrifice) for that truth. It comes at a price. (John 15:18-21)

And I pray that God will bless the church with such people.

Instead of dismissing what we think is nonsense, or not what we want to hear, we should investigate the Bible for ourselves, but not allowing pre-conceived ideas to color what the Bible says.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. And even while I agree, I know how difficult it can be to challenge the established paradigm.

yet the majority are led willingly by a divided and disunited church system that gives them what they want.

This goes back to your earlier point about a commitment to personal Bible study and the integrity to stand by what I believe is true. I fully appreciate all those who have helped me along the way, but at the same time, I knew that Jesus was going to hold me personally responsible if I failed to hear the soft voice of the Holy Spirit pricking my conscience and listening to his prompts investigate the matter myself or get another opinion.

How can we discern the truth among so much falsehood? Only God can lead a willing heart out of that mire.

Esatto!

 

[Aunty Jane]

God can do anything. Nothing is too hard for Him.
Your carnal mind just cannot believe it.

Do you know the difference between blind faith, and faith based solely on God’s word?

People do not need any knowledge to possess the kind of faith promoted by the churches of Christendom, who have spoon fed their members for many centuries on concocted doctrines that originated in Roman Catholicism. When Jesus warned about “the devil” sowing “weeds” of counterfeit “Christianity” in the same “field” as he had sown the “wheat”, what makes Christendom’s churches pretend that it didn’t happen?

If you cannot support your favored beliefs with solidly based scripture, then that is all you have….”beliefs”. The question to ask is…”are your beliefs true, and can you back them up with God’s word?”

What you offer are empty, twisted verses of ambiguous scripture that mean nothing if you do not know the context in which they were written. You can’t make excuses for what you believe and then twist a verse of scripture to support it. The Bible is the word of God and it must form the entire basis of our beliefs.

If you think that “believing” is all you need to do, then consider James’ words at James 2:19…
”You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.”
Even the demons “believe” in “one God”, and they will do all in their power to lead as many people away from the truth as possible….using a divided and fragmented counterfeit church system to do it, presenting three separate “gods” who can all talk to each other and be in three separate places at the same time…and yet somehow remain “one God”……right there is a complete departure from anything Jesus taught……and it‘s happening right under everyone’s nose.

Programmed ignorance is the enemy.

 

[Peterlag]

Right, but if He makes Himself a man but still retains is deity in full... which He did... He can lay His life down, and then take it up again... which He also did. :)

Again, the answer to the question in the original post (and adding the Holy Spirit to the question) ~ "Did Jesus raise Himself from the dead or did God the father raise Him or did the Holy Spirit raise Him?" ~ the answer is a resounding yes. :)

Grace and peace to you.

There's no verse that says He made Himself a man or that He was a man and a God at the same time or that He was 100 percent man and a 100 percent God at the same time or that He shared 2 wills one being human and another being God. And concerning the original post the word "Father" does not mean God. It's a word we use to describe a parent. It is not a life form. And neither is son, uncle, or cousin.

 

[Peterlag]

God can do anything. Nothing is too hard for Him.
Your carnal mind just cannot believe it.

It seems logical to say that if God works with His own logic and science that He created, then there is stuff He simply cannot do. It seems clear He cannot lie. He probably cannot make a square circle. And if He is unlimited in goodness and wisdom, then He probably cannot be bad or unwise.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The picture you paint here is what I would call the process of "selection," which is the process of choosing silk purses according to a set of criteria. But since God is the creator, doesn't he make silk purses?

Do we imagine God is up there pointing fingers at newly conceived children and deciding to make one a silk purse and another a sow’s ear? Is that what God does?
Free will is a precious gift given to all humans to decide their course in life. And if the knowledge of evil had never entered human consciousness, it would have remained a precious gift…..now it has become a curse to many because all the evil in the world is an abuse of someone’s free will. We were never supposed to impose our will on others, or to have power over how others live….that is what corrupts humanity and it started with the devil tempting the woman to abuse her free will, leading to her husband making the choice to abuse his.
So my answer would be that we are all a blank canvas when we are born, but with genetic predispositions that dictate personality traits from our vast DNA input from many generations of ancestors.

God does not create us individually, predetermining who we will become….we are our own ‘creators’ because God gave us that gift….to reproduce our own kind, just like all other earthly creation…. but we alone possess God’s moral qualities, and can use our superior intelligence in a way that other creatures cannot. Our free will is based on a unique quality…..the ability to foresee the future based on past experience. We alone can virtually predict an outcome before we make any decision. Eve knew the penalty before she partook of the fruit…..the devil lied to her about the consequences…..he’s been lying ever since.
Trusting her Creator and obeying him would also have been an act of free will.

I get the sense that you are trying to protect human freedom. Is human freewill so inviolable that even God can't or won't infringe on it?

If free will was not the amazing gift that God gave us, then why put the TKGE in the garden?
Why allow free will to be abused in the first place?
If we are ‘made in God’s image’, then free will is something that he himself values, because he gave us that quality.
He also made it so because he wants us to love him and serve his interests here on this earth of our own free will. You cannot force people to love you, and you cannot have trust and respect that you did not earn.

Jehovah is a God who respects our choices, and either rewards them or penalizes them, based on what he has clearly outlined as his expectations for us humans. Free will was to be exercised within the limitations that God set. “Free” did not mean “completely free to do as you please”. As God restrains his free will, so should we, and this whole exercise from Eden until now is a valuable teaching lesson about where the abuse of free will can lead. Both angels and humans will take valuable life lessons from it.

I like the sentiment here and I agree with much of what you say. I would only like to add that some hopes are subject to nonfulfillment. A young woman, for instance, might hope that she will receive a pony for Christmas. Maybe she will, maybe she won't. Will her parents buy her a pony? Did they promise? Are they reliable, and do they have access to resources? If she can honestly answer yes to all of these questions, then her confidence level will be high. If not, then she will undoubtedly be disappointed on Christmas morning.

Our hope has to be in line with what is a reasonable scriptural hope in the first place. God is not a ‘genie granting wishes’…..he has told us that “whatever we ask according to his will, he hears us”. (1 John 5:14) Our hope has to be on the fulfillment of God’s promises…..he is a God “who cannot lie”. (Titus 1:1-2)

Don’t get me started on Christmas…..

Romans chapter 5 reveals that a believer can be confident in the fact that their hope will not be unfulfilled if God has poured out his Spirit into their heart. This assurance can only come after one has gone through trials of faith. The ability to persevere in faith is a clear indication of God's supernatural help.

Retrospection is the anchor for our soul after we have been tested and remained in Christ.

I agree….an untested faith is no faith at all. Faith is like a muscle…the more it is exercised, the stronger it gets. “Doubt” erodes faith, as James points out….
James 1:2-8…..
“Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you meet with various trials, 3 knowing as you do that this tested quality of your faith produces endurance. 4 But let endurance complete its work, so that you may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything.

5 So if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching, and it will be given him. 6 But let him keep asking in faith, not doubting at all, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, that man should not expect to receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways.”

 

[Aunty Jane]

In my view, Jesus is still talking about his kinsmen. And I like what you said earlier about a life-and-death decision that guided believers during the Jewish wars of 70AD. I think the prophets speak about another milestone moment when the Jews will need to make another life-and-death decision. And only those who make the correct decision, based on trusting what God said, will be saved.

I believe that all humanity will be given the same choices as those in Noah’s day, because Jesus himself made the contrast (Matt 24:37-39)…..Noah was a “Preacher of righteousness” during all the decades it must have taken to construct the ark. (2 Peter 2:5)
Having given a thorough witness to the people by his words and actions, God gave ample opportunity to any who might respond and there was actually plenty of room on the ark for more humans….and yet not a soul believed Noah. Just as there was no last minute jumping on board back then….I do not believe that there will be a last minute change of heart for natural Israel either. Those of natural Jewish descent will already have proven their faith and loyalty to Christ Jesus by then.

I wonder why you think that this last minute change of heart will happen?…..why will God save a disobedient “stiff necked“ nation, who have proven throughout all their history, that when God requires loyalty and obedience that they have simply never upheld these qualities for any real length of time? Much depended on their leadership, which was mostly bad. Yet there was always a remnant of faithful ones.

Yes, I am reminded of Joel's prophecy and his declaration that "those who call upon the name of the Lord shall live." Joel meant this literally and I believe this prophesy will be realized in the near future. The Jewish people will hear a call to come to Jerusalem. Those who hear the call will be saved. Isaiah calls them "survivors." (Isaiah 4:3)

Acts 2:21….
”And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”’ was quoting Joel 2:32, so the ”LORD“ in that scripture is Yahweh (Jehovah)…so “calling upon the name of Jehovah” is what is required for salvation…..calling on the name of the wrong “Lord” (who is assumed to be God) will not result in salvation.

God’s people will be judged on their behavior, not on their lineage….

When the golden calf incident occurred….
“On the very next day, Moses said to the people: “You committed a very great sin, and now I will go up to Jehovah to see if I can make amends for your sin.” 31 So Moses returned to Jehovah and said: “What a great sin this people has committed! They made themselves a god of gold! 32 But now if you are willing, pardon their sin; if not, please wipe me out from your book that you have written.” 33 However, Jehovah said to Moses: “Whoever has sinned against me, I will wipe him out of my book. 34 Go now, lead the people to the place about which I have spoken to you. Look! My angel will go ahead of you, and on the day when I make an accounting, I will bring punishment on them for their sin.” 35 Then Jehovah began plaguing the people because they had made the calf, the one that Aaron had made.“ (Exodus 32:30-35)

Punishment was carried out on those who engaged in that sinful conduct, despite the fact that God had rescued them from slavery in Egypt. So the initial liberation was not a free pass to disobey their God. They made a vow to obey him, and they found out the hard way that God exacts complete obedience in all things.…yet repeated punishments did not alter their course for any length of time. I cannot see natural Israel ever coming to admit that Jesus is their Messiah…..have you ever spoken to Jews today….they are as stiff necked as they have always been.

p.s. It takes me a while to respond to your posts since they are filled with very thoughtful comments. Thanks. :)

Thank you…I hope I am not wearing you out because I have been a student and teacher of God’s word for over 50 years…..I love to learn and there is so much more to explore….

 

[PinSeeker]

There's no verse that says He made Himself a man or that He was a man and a God at the same time or that He was 100 percent man and a 100 percent God at the same time or that He shared 2 wills one being human and another being God.

Paul says that very thing in Philippians 2:5-11. "Two wills"? Ugh. But a dual nature.

Grace and peace to you.

And concerning the original post the word "Father" does not mean God.

Ah, so you're reframing someone's own words and context to fit what you want it to be. Well, that's not an unprecedented event. :)

It's a word we use to describe a parent. It is not a life form.

LOL!

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Do you have the faith to believe by the power of the Holy Ghost
you can cease from committing all sin? ;)

There is no “holy ghost“ in the Bible…..”he“ is an invention of the Roman Catholic church.

I believe in the “holy spirit“…..which is an “it”, not a “he”.
The “holy spirit” is God’s power, exercised and directed towards whomever and whatever God wants to be done.

No human in sinful flesh can cease from committing sin. What a Christian can do, is ask God to give us the strength of will to refrain from committing sin.

All sin begins with a thought, so we have the option not to act on that sinful thought….dismissing it immediately….and if we don’t, death will result.….spiritual death.
James 1:13-15…
”When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.”

The apostles Peter and Paul both committed sin despite the fact that they were anointed with holy spirit. (Gal 2:11; Romans 7:21-25)
Until they attained a sinless spiritual body, sin could continue whilst they were in the fallen flesh….but only if they let their guard down.

 

[Peterlag]

Paul says that very thing in Philippians 2:5-11. "Two wills"? Ugh. But a dual nature.

Grace and peace to you.

Ah, so you're reframing someone's own words and context to fit what you want it to be. Well, that's not an unprecedented event. :)

LOL!

Grace and peace to you.

What does Paul say in Philippians 2:5-11? That Jesus is 100 percent man and 100 percent God at the same time. Logic says that would make him a 200 percent person.

 

[PinSeeker]

What does Paul say in Philippians 2:5-11?

What I just told you, Peterlag.

That Jesus is 100 percent man and 100 percent God at the same time.

Yes, "though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men..." The Greek word for translated to the English 'form,' Peterlag, is 'morphē.' which means the very thing itself. "Though He was" says, unequivocally, that He remained God while taking the form of ~ becoming ~ man.

morphe

Logic says that would make him a 200 percent person.

LOL!

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Pierac]

What does Paul say in Philippians 2:5-11? That Jesus is 100 percent man and 100 percent God at the same time. Logic says that would make him a 200 percent person.

It's funny how Christians try to use Philippians 2 as proof of the Trinity... They have no clue that by quoting it.... They deny their own Doctrine!!!

Now to the second phrase in Philippians 2 that causes a difficulty. It is the one that says Jesus Christ "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself (v. 6-7). It is unfortunate that the Old King James version of the Bible translated this verse completely wrong. It reads that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal with God" and gives the impression that as the preexistent God, Jesus did not think there was anything wrong in being considered equal with God.

It ought to be clear by now that this is the exact opposite of what is meant. The whole context of the passage is about being humble, putting God's will and glory first, and serving others’ interest above one's own interest. Although he was in "the form of God" Jesus did not reckon his God-given status as something to be exploited.

This meaning contrast well with the conduct of Adam who unfortunately did consider equality with God anything to be grasped at. Adam wanted to be like God as Genesis 3:5 teaches. Adam tried to grasp at equality with God. But Jesus would not usurp God's authority for selfish advantage. He said, "I came to serve" (Matt. 20:28), not to snatch! At his arrest in the garden, he said, "Do you not think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than 12 legions of angels?" (Matthew 26:53). As the Messiah, God's appointed King, he had every right to call for divine protection. He "emptied himself" of all such Messianic privileges.

Therefore, it can be categorically stated that Philippians 2: 5-11 has nothing to do with Jesus Christ being God in a preexistence state. The importance is really very simple and very practical: how are Christians to conduct themselves in this world? Not by imitating the man Adam who forfeited everything by a grab for power and glory, but by imitating Jesus the Messiah (v.5) who through humility and obedience to God gained it all and more. After all, if Jesus was already God, then verses 9 to 11 are nonsensical. There is no "Therefore also God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth." If he was already God, he had this before his birth! No. It is clear that God has given him a new position, a new name (authority), and a new rank that he did not previously possess.

The Greek is very clear here: dio kai means (as in Luke 1:35) "for this reason precisely." Why has God exalted Jesus to His right hand? "Therefore, God has highly exalted him and given him the name above every other name because he is back where he was before as God"? Not at all! He is given the status as a reward for the precise reason that he humbled himself and died. His exalted status is a reward. If we follow the last Adam's pattern, we too will be exalted by God when Christ returns. It is evident, then, that "this hymn does not contained what numerous interpreters seek and find in it: an independent statement about preexistence or even a Christology preexistence… No preexistence of Christ before the world with an independent significance can be recognized even in Philippians 2.

This is the creed of ALL Orthodox Christian Beliefs! All of them!

DEFINITION OF THE COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON (451 AD)

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.


So pay close attention.... The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation.

You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both.

Easy peezy,
Paul

 

[Aunty Jane]

Praise the Lord. This is encouraging. :)

I know how encouraging it was to me to meet those who answered my every question with the Bible. Not a single one said “I think it means…..” (fill in the blanks) I had been searching for those who could do this, but I did not find them attached to Christendom…..frankly, I found very few who actually knew what the Bible taught about many important things, not at all worried about their level of ignorance because someone knew it all for them! What a clever trap that is!

I can't say. I wish I knew. I am not one to generalize about the entire body of Christ. But since you aren't the first to ask this important question, I also wonder about the state of the church today.

I did see the state of the church in our time, and it bothered me to no end……I could not see that modern-day “Christianity” wasn’t anything close to what Jesus and his apostles taught, remembering that they were Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture. This is why I avoid using the terms “Old Testament“ and “New Testament”….because it gives the impression that the new replaced the old, but that is not true….the Christian Scriptures are the end, or culmination of one story that began in Genesis….it is a continuation about a new age or chapter in God’s original purpose. It is a natural sequel that depends on the Hebrew Scriptures to explain a lot of the Christian writings, as the apostles and Jesus himself often quoted from them…it was the only scripture they had. (2 Tim 3:16-17)

So to me, the genuine “Christians” (as opposed to the counterfeit church created by the devil) would be doing what Christ commanded and telling others about the kingdom of God. In all my years parroting off the Lord’s Prayer, I never once stopped to ask what it was that that Jesus was teaching us to pray for…..”thy kingdom come”….?
Have you ever stopped to consider what that model prayer was all about?

I remember when the pastor used to come to the door. And maybe some of them still do that. But like you, I haven't seen any for a long time. Even the JWs no longer come to the door. I don't know, maybe they have a list. :)

Well, I know that JW’s held back from door to door witnessing in every nation because of the pandemic….and we even closed our Kingdom Halls down during that period as a public safety precaution. We held our meetings over zoom and never missed our Bible education program or our public witnessing, as we also met over zoom to write letters to our neighbors concerning the signs of the times and the hope of God’s Kingdom in solving the problems that now plague us. Where there’s a will, there’s a way…..we wrote lots of letters in those three years when the world was turned upside down.

Our meetings and witnessing work have resumed now, but like many others, we were very affected by the events of recent years.…many now have ongoing health issues because of the virus and adverse reactions to the jabs.

I agree with you. I don't think pastors and elders purposely set out to reduce the amount of Bible study, but I know some pastors inadvertently model this attitude from the pulpit, as you suggest. And those in the pews subconsciously draw the wrong conclusions about the accessibility of the Bible. This is unfortunate, and I pray that the Holy Spirit will help correct this situation.

The fact is that God’s spirit has drawn many out of the “church” system because they have seen that it is corrupt, hypocritical, and very inept when it comes to tending the flock. (Modern day Pharisees)
The small family churches of the past have all but vanished, and many have given way to the mega churches, whose main focus is on entertainment and drawing on emotions rather than solid knowledge of the scriptures. Some have even sanctioned gay marriage as if the scriptures are not very clear on that subject.

Originally, the congregations were kept small for a good reason….they were a family of God’s worshippers and the elders were their shepherds. These shepherds knew their sheep and were there for them in times of crisis.
The lone pastors of today cannot possibly care for all in a congregation because of the magnitude of the problems people are facing in these critical times. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

The “clergy” (as an educated class) are actually an invention of the church system…a single pastor or priest was never the lone shepherd in original Christian congregations…..there was a body of elders who shared the load and made sure that no sheep in their flock went hungry or without assistance if it was needed. In fact, there were no priests officiating in Christian congregations because the office of priests was to be served in heaven, not here on earth.

Rev 20:6 pointed to the future, not the present.
“Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.”
I don’t think many people understand what a complete departure the “church” system is from what Jesus and his apostles began.

I hear you. I suspect this is a professional hazard among pastors and teachers who get paid by a denomination. It would be a conflict of interest to teach a doctrine that contradicts the confession of the denomination. Only the courageous will attempt to maintain integrity.

And that is another thing that bothered me when I was in Christendom….the emphasis on money. The very idea of being paid to do the Lord’s work is abhorrent to me! Today‘s clergy expect a salary and all the trappings that go with being a “pastor”…..a house, a car and all expenses paid…..this is not what the apostles did….

1 Thess 2:9…Paul wrote….
”Certainly you bear in mind, brothers, our labor and toil. It was with working night and day, so as not to put an expensive burden upon any one of you, that we preached the good news of God to you.”
Paul worked as a tent maker to support himself and so did many others, so that they were not a financial burden to the flock. There was no expectation of financial gain even though they could count on some support, and no doubt appreciated it when they did receive it from time to time.

I have spoken to many church members who were very disappointed when their pastor took up a position that paid more, and left them with no shepherd. I have even spoken to those who considered taking up the ministry but it didn't pay enough.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And I pray that God will bless the church with such people.

Jehovah has already blessed his true worshippers with the kind of peace and unity we should expect from a spirit backed global family of his worshippers…..it is the one thing that identifies Christ’s true disciples…..they will all be of one mind with no divisions among them (1 Cor 1:10) And they will have love among themselves, always ready to help out a brother or sister in need. (John 13:34-35)

They would be “no part of the world”, meaning that they will not be supporting any political party or being involved with this world’s political goals or agendas…they will not participate in bloodshed for any reason, but will endeavor to ‘love their enemies and pray for them’ as Jesus said. (Matt 5:43-44) Only genuine Christians can be “in the world “ but be “no part” of it.…and only God’s spirit can produce such people.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. And even while I agree, I know how difficult it can be to challenge the established paradigm.

It is nothing new…..the truth is the truth and nothing will ever alter that…..”the established paradigm“ is as false today as it was in Jesus‘ day….it took courage to step outside of that paradigm to embrace the truth that Jesus taught. He warned that this would create problems for his disciples….

John 15:18-21…
”If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me.”

Matt 10:34-37…
”Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.”

This shows us how complete the separation had to be….family opposition can be the cruelest of all….

This goes back to your earlier point about a commitment to personal Bible study and the integrity to stand by what I believe is true. I fully appreciate all those who have helped me along the way, but at the same time, I knew that Jesus was going to hold me personally responsible if I failed to hear the soft voice of the Holy Spirit pricking my conscience and listening to his prompts investigate the matter myself or get another opinion.

This is what our conscience is for…..that “soft small voice” must become a roar if the prompting of our conscience is not heeded.….otherwise we can end up in the condition that Paul describes in 1 Tim 4:1-2.
He warned….
”However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron.”

A branding iron renders the flesh insensitive....an insensitive conscience is of no use at all....

In researching “church” history we can see very clearly when the rot set in……very early in the history of "the church" we see how power and corruption governed that early church, which was taken over by the ones that Paul spoke of. There was a ‘mother’ church full of corruption that gave birth to many ‘daughters’, who all took their mother’s dirty laundry with them. This is the divided and fragmented churches of Christendom.

Then we have the warning in Rev 18:4-5….
”And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.”

We have to heed this warning and “get out of“ that corrupt religious system just as Jesus’ disciples had to do the same in the first century….
“Babylon the great“ is a religious empire, created by the devil to secure worship for himself by deception.
He does not care what god you worship, as long as it isn’t the true God, Jehovah.

That command by God is for his “people” who find themselves in any kind of false religion, to “get out of it”… to completely separate from it, otherwise, when it goes down (as it must) we will go down with it.

Original Babylon was the springboard from which all false worship began after the flood of Noah’s day.
Nimrod became the first rebel in that era and he corrupted others to follow him into false worship.
The confusing of the language at the Tower of Babel (which he was building in defiance of God’s command to spread out in the earth) resulted in various language groups taking their false religious ideas with them all over the world (Genesis 11:1-9)…..including a flood legend, which permeates just about all of them….and we see the similarity found in the core beliefs of all false worship…..multiplicities of gods, (often in triads) immortality of the soul, and a hell of eternal torment in flames for the wicked, contrasted by a heaven of bliss for the righteous…..none of these concepts are taught in the Bible, so we can identify “Babylon the great” just by those core beliefs. Christendom teaches all of them.
(Read all of Rev 18 to see the absolute abhorrence that God feels towards “Babylon the great”.)

 

[Peterlag]

It's funny how Christians try to use Philippians 2 as proof of the Trinity... They have no clue that by quoting it.... They deny their own Doctrine!!!

Now to the second phrase in Philippians 2 that causes a difficulty. It is the one that says Jesus Christ "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself (v. 6-7). It is unfortunate that the Old King James version of the Bible translated this verse completely wrong. It reads that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal with God" and gives the impression that as the preexistent God, Jesus did not think there was anything wrong in being considered equal with God.

It ought to be clear by now that this is the exact opposite of what is meant. The whole context of the passage is about being humble, putting God's will and glory first, and serving others’ interest above one's own interest. Although he was in "the form of God" Jesus did not reckon his God-given status as something to be exploited.

This meaning contrast well with the conduct of Adam who unfortunately did consider equality with God anything to be grasped at. Adam wanted to be like God as Genesis 3:5 teaches. Adam tried to grasp at equality with God. But Jesus would not usurp God's authority for selfish advantage. He said, "I came to serve" (Matt. 20:28), not to snatch! At his arrest in the garden, he said, "Do you not think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than 12 legions of angels?" (Matthew 26:53). As the Messiah, God's appointed King, he had every right to call for divine protection. He "emptied himself" of all such Messianic privileges.

Therefore, it can be categorically stated that Philippians 2: 5-11 has nothing to do with Jesus Christ being God in a preexistence state. The importance is really very simple and very practical: how are Christians to conduct themselves in this world? Not by imitating the man Adam who forfeited everything by a grab for power and glory, but by imitating Jesus the Messiah (v.5) who through humility and obedience to God gained it all and more. After all, if Jesus was already God, then verses 9 to 11 are nonsensical. There is no "Therefore also God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth." If he was already God, he had this before his birth! No. It is clear that God has given him a new position, a new name (authority), and a new rank that he did not previously possess.

The Greek is very clear here: dio kai means (as in Luke 1:35) "for this reason precisely." Why has God exalted Jesus to His right hand? "Therefore, God has highly exalted him and given him the name above every other name because he is back where he was before as God"? Not at all! He is given the status as a reward for the precise reason that he humbled himself and died. His exalted status is a reward. If we follow the last Adam's pattern, we too will be exalted by God when Christ returns. It is evident, then, that "this hymn does not contained what numerous interpreters seek and find in it: an independent statement about preexistence or even a Christology preexistence… No preexistence of Christ before the world with an independent significance can be recognized even in Philippians 2.

This is the creed of ALL Orthodox Christian Beliefs! All of them!

DEFINITION OF THE COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON (451 AD)

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.


So pay close attention.... The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation.

You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both.

Easy peezy,
Paul

There's a very high percentage that you have had the same teachers as I have. Except for this "Adam wanted to be like God as Genesis 3:5 teaches. Adam tried to grasp at equality with God." Would you be so kind to tell me more about Adam. I'm mostly interested in what he ate that was bad since we know it was not an apple.

 

[Peterlag]

What I just told you, Peterlag.


Yes, "though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men..." The Greek word for translated to the English 'form,' Peterlag, is 'morphē.' which means the very thing itself. "Though He was" says, unequivocally, that He remained God while taking the form of ~ becoming ~ man.

morphe

LOL!

Grace and peace to you.

I just saw this on page 233...

It's funny how Christians try to use Philippians 2 as proof of the Trinity... They have no clue that by quoting it.... They deny their own Doctrine!!!

Now to the second phrase in Philippians 2 that causes a difficulty. It is the one that says Jesus Christ "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself (v. 6-7). It is unfortunate that the Old King James version of the Bible translated this verse completely wrong. It reads that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal with God" and gives the impression that as the preexistent God, Jesus did not think there was anything wrong in being considered equal with God.

It ought to be clear by now that this is the exact opposite of what is meant. The whole context of the passage is about being humble, putting God's will and glory first, and serving others’ interest above one's own interest. Although he was in "the form of God" Jesus did not reckon his God-given status as something to be exploited.

This meaning contrast well with the conduct of Adam who unfortunately did consider equality with God anything to be grasped at. Adam wanted to be like God as Genesis 3:5 teaches. Adam tried to grasp at equality with God. But Jesus would not usurp God's authority for selfish advantage. He said, "I came to serve" (Matt. 20:28), not to snatch! At his arrest in the garden, he said, "Do you not think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than 12 legions of angels?" (Matthew 26:53). As the Messiah, God's appointed King, he had every right to call for divine protection. He "emptied himself" of all such Messianic privileges.

Therefore, it can be categorically stated that Philippians 2: 5-11 has nothing to do with Jesus Christ being God in a preexistence state. The importance is really very simple and very practical: how are Christians to conduct themselves in this world? Not by imitating the man Adam who forfeited everything by a grab for power and glory, but by imitating Jesus the Messiah (v.5) who through humility and obedience to God gained it all and more. After all, if Jesus was already God, then verses 9 to 11 are nonsensical. There is no "Therefore also God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth." If he was already God, he had this before his birth! No. It is clear that God has given him a new position, a new name (authority), and a new rank that he did not previously possess.

The Greek is very clear here: dio kai means (as in Luke 1:35) "for this reason precisely." Why has God exalted Jesus to His right hand? "Therefore, God has highly exalted him and given him the name above every other name because he is back where he was before as God"? Not at all! He is given the status as a reward for the precise reason that he humbled himself and died. His exalted status is a reward. If we follow the last Adam's pattern, we too will be exalted by God when Christ returns. It is evident, then, that "this hymn does not contained what numerous interpreters seek and find in it: an independent statement about preexistence or even a Christology preexistence… No preexistence of Christ before the world with an independent significance can be recognized even in Philippians 2.

 

[Peterlag]

I have a question for you. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the life?
If so then could it be possible for Him to raise Himself from the dead?
THAT IS BEING THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE?

Oh yeah before I forget
here it is where He said He was going to raise Himself from the dead.

John 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself.
I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

The verse you just quoted means he had the authority to give up his life and he also had the authority to not give up his life. In other words God did not force him to do it which makes perfect sense because he had to do this on his own having free will.

 

[Peterlag]

No, it states He had the POWER. Why you changing the wording?

The Young's Analytical Concordance says the Greek work is "exousia" and it means Privilege or Authority.

 

[Peterlag]

Are you Greek reading a Greek Bible?

Them who translated the original transcripts

SAYS IT IS

POWER

Here's 20 other Bibles on John 10:18...

New International Version
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

New Living Translation
No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.”

English Standard Version
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Berean Standard Bible
No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”

Berean Literal Bible
No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. This commandment I received from My Father."

New American Standard Bible
No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father.”

NASB 1995
“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

NASB 1977
“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

Legacy Standard Bible
No one takes it away from Me, but from Myself, I lay it down. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

Christian Standard Bible
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to take it up again. I have received this command from my Father.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to take it up again. I have received this command from My Father.”

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“No man takes it from me; I am laying it down of my own will, for I am authorized to lay it down, and I am authorized to receive it again; this commandment I have received from my Father.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
No one takes my life from me. I give my life of my own free will. I have the authority to give my life, and I have the authority to take my life back again. This is what my Father ordered me to do."

Good News Translation
No one takes my life away from me. I give it up of my own free will. I have the right to give it up, and I have the right to take it back. This is what my Father has commanded me to do."

International Standard Version
No one is taking it from me; I lay it down of my own free will. I have the authority to lay it down, and I have the authority to take it back again. This is what my Father has commanded me."

Literal Standard Version
no one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself; authority I have to lay it down, and authority I have again to take it; this command I received from My Father.”

Majority Standard Bible
No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”

NET Bible
No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down of my own free will. I have the authority to lay it down, and I have the authority to take it back again. This commandment I received from my Father."

Weymouth New Testament
No one is taking it away from me, but I myself am laying it down. I am authorized to lay it down, and I am authorized to receive it back again. This is the command I received from my Father."

Young's Literal Translation
no one doth take it from me, but I lay it down of myself; authority I have to lay it down, and authority I have again to take it; this command I received from my Father.'