Did Jesus raise hiself from the dead or did God yhe father raise him

[Aunty Jane]

Those whom Jesus sent out to call the people to repentance would undoubtedly encounter many who would "keep on hearing, but will not understand; and keep on seeing, but will not perceive." The heart of his people have become dull. For this reason, the initial step in the process of salvation occurs when God softens the heart, opens the eyes, and gives understanding and insight to those he has chosen

The hearts of the people had been kidnapped by their hypocritical and disobedient teachers, through hundreds of years of error. So to whom was Jesus “sent”?
Matt 15:24….
Jesus said…”I was not sent to anyone except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Who were “the lost sheep” but the ones whom the shepherds had let wander about with no shepherd to guide and care for them. So many illustrations of Jesus featured ‘lost sheep’. As shepherds, many in Israel understood what he meant because sheep were a valuable possession of the masters who owned them. The master appointed the shepherds to tend the sheep, making sure that not a single one was lost. They watched over them at night so that predatory animals would not attack them, or take their lambs. By day they guided them to rich pasture and clean uncontaminated water.

The contrast between God as the Master or owner of the sheep, and the Pharisees who were supposed to be the shepherds of his flock, was the difference between Jesus as “the Fine Shepherd“ and the shepherds who were under obligation to care for his sheep, but failed to obey the Master as they had always done. The result was many “lost sheep”…..some however were content to remain “lost”, so God did not open their hearts to accept his Messiah.….yet Christ and his disciples travelled extensively in Israel’s territory to find those “lost sheep”. (Matt 10:11-14) That way all were exposed to the truth, and by their response, demonstrated what was in their own hearts.

I don't think of salvation as winning a prize or accepting a free gift. Rather, I see salvation in terms of healing; the blind are made to have sight. There are many barriers to belief and trust in God's word. Barriers to belief are anything that prevents a person from being fully engaged in a relationship with God.

Twice Paul referred to salvation as a “prize”….(1 Cor 9:24 and Phil 3:14)…..a reward for keeping the faith despite opposition. The word in Greek is “brabeion” and it means…..

1. “the award to the victor in the games, a prize
2. metaph. of the heavenly reward for Christian character” (Strongs)

1 Cor 9:24 says..
“Do you not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win it.”
Running in the races of the first century required endurance and training, but only one was the winner…..Paul says that all who finish this race are winners…attaining the same prize…..salvation.

So God does not expect us to endure the hardships of ‘the cramped and narrow road to life’ without hope of the reward…the “prize” of everlasting life….for the chosen ones it is life in heaven with Christ (“the upward call”) as “kings and priests” (Rev 20:6) and for others it is everlasting life in paradise on earth as their subjects. (Rev 21:2-4)

Hebrews 11:6…
”Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.”

 

[Aunty Jane]

Salvation isn't the acceptance of an offer as it is the guidance and encouragement from God himself. When God decides to save someone, he opens the eyes, and the ears. He opens the mind to accept new information; he opens the heart to trust God's word. And he spends time with that person in patient instruction, teaching, guidance, and encouragement.

What is the reason WHY God decides to save someone? Why does he open THEIR MINDS and HEARTS to trust what the scriptures have to say? Whom does he use to instruct his sheep?

The purpose of the cross is reconciliation and once peace between God and an individual has been established, God blesses that individual with his full attention as a teacher and a mentor.

Exactly. But he uses human teachers as he has always done. (Heb 13:17) So who among those today who are in the role of “teachers”, are actually teaching “WHAT” Christ taught, accurately…..and who are the “weeds” of false “Christianity” who are leading the people whose hearts are NOT open to the truth, astray?

Will those who accept the counterfeit, KNOW that they have been deceived? The answer is NO! They will be certain in their own hearts and minds that they have the truth whilst everyone else, who does not accept their beliefs, are wrong.

Matt 7:21-23..
”Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”

Complete and utter rejection awaits those who were never awakened to the truth….why?….because they did not “love the truth” when they heard it (2 Thess 2:9-12)……it sounded like falsehood to them. Their pathetic pleading gets them nowhere. Christ says he “NEVER knew” them….”never” means “not ever”….so Jesus never set foot in any of their churches. A very sobering thought, isn’t it?

I do not believe that God searches among mankind for individuals to bless. Instead, He selects people to bless based on the role they will play in demonstrating His grace and love.

Jesus said that God “looks for“ individuals whose hearts are open to him...those who are searching for something missing in their lives because they feel spiritually “lost”. A closed heart and mind cannot accept anything but what is already in there. The truth is like a heart transplant….the old worn out part is replaced by a new fully functioning one…..someone died to save that person….in our case it is Jesus who died to give us a new heart….but only if we want one.

Secondly, it is our natural tendency to mistrust God and resist His will. No one is born with a natural inclination to worship and believe in God. All of us are rebels from the very start.

Our sinful nature is always at odds with our spirituality. But I disagree that ”no one is born with a natural inclination to worship and believe in God”.
Humankind are virtually ‘programmed’ to worship, and we can see how the devil has hijacked this natural inclination in us and turned it into something that furthers his own agenda. He wants our worship.

Humans will worship what their hearts tell them is a “god” to them. Look at man’s history to know that false worship has been around since the rebellion of Nimrod after the flood. Be it false and invented deities or in modern times, the natural inclination in some to “worship” other things like wealth, or fame, with celebrities being held up as “idols” in a world gone mad. But these “idols” are frequently like the “gods” worshipped in ancient times….hardly paragons of virtue.

The scenario is familiar…..people seek those of like mind, and they gather together in their “temples” to worship their “idols“…..any sporting arena can be such a temple….any building can be one too, if all in attendance are there to see their ‘idols’ perform. They sacrifice their hard earned money to worship these things. Are they aware of what they are doing? I don’t think so. “Blinded minds” are not open to anything outside of their own mindset. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

 

[Aunty Jane]

For this reason, according to the New Testament salvation is understood in supernatural terms, whereby God's miraculous overture is to transform a person born into rebellion into a wise, patient, kind, loving, individual with self-control, who has open eyes and a renewed mind to understand the teaching of his son.

Yes, the apostles proved that they could transform their will (inherent sinful nature) and bring it into captivity to Christ.
2 Cor 10: 3-5…..
“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ”.

All of us can do this if we have God’s spirit helping us to achieve what is in our hearts, while fighting the sinfulness of our nature. We are in a war, and we can win it if we have the right heart motivation and God’s spirit backing us.

"I don't believe that Paul is defining faith in Hebrews 11:1.

Paul is defining “faith” here. The whole of Hebrews ch. 11 is dedicated to men and women of faith in times past….those who hoped in the promised seed, and the coming Kingdom of God, but who never got to know him, or to know about him, and what he taught. (Heb 11:39-40) They had some idea about the coming Kingdom, but they did not know the details that were revealed only when Christ came.

Instead of describing faith's nature, boundaries, or essence, his goal is to establish a strong connection between a person's faith and God's approval. The "not seen" thing in this context is God's approval of an individual, which we cannot know for sure. Therefore, Paul argues that our faith is evidence of God's approval since it has always been the basis of God's approval, as recorded in the Old Testament."

This is true too, though not negating what Paul defines as “faith”. “The assured expectation” of the things that the scriptures tell us to “hope” for. “Hope“ is what serves as an “anchor for the soul”. (Heb 6:17-19)

I don't think the Bible teaches that there is a "natural Israel" and there is a "spiritual Israel." As we saw in Romans 11, there is the political state of Israel that is partially hardened and contains a remnant of those who "fear the Lord."

And yet Paul speaks of “the Israel of God” as having “peace”, whereas natural Israel has never known peace since the days of the few good kings in ancient times. Peace comes as a result of God’s blessings…..and spiritual Israel are at peace because they are “no part of this world”…..they have no patriotic aspirations or loyalties, or political leanings because Jesus is our leader, not any president or prime minister. We can live in the world, but not be any part of it. (John 17:16) No government can force us to break God’s laws….or tell us not to do what Christ commanded must be done in these “last days”. (2 Tim 3:1-5; Matt 28:19-20)

As it was with Jesus’ first century disciples….
”So they brought them and stood them before the Sanʹhe·drin. Then the high priest questioned them 28 and said: “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.” 29 In answer Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” (Acts 5:27-29)

The instruction there is clear…..

 

[One 2 question]

Paul is defining “faith” here. The whole of Hebrews ch. 11 is dedicated to men and women of faith in times past….those who hoped in the promised seed, and the coming Kingdom of God, but who never got to know him, or to know about him, and what he taught. (Heb 11:39-40) They had some idea about the coming Kingdom, but they did not know the details that were revealed only when Christ came.

Yes, and some details Jesus spoke directly to certain people called for a response of faith and action from that individual like Nicodemus or Zacchaeus. I love that this same Jesus has been communicating with individuals for the past 2000 years and communicates directly with individuals right now which requires faith in the unseen invisible Shepherd by the visible sheep. Since God in flesh has become invisible, I guess our faith has to be even greater, 2 fold, a faith in WHO we do not see and a faith in WHAT he tells the individual. My trust in my Divine Shepherd has grown over the years as He and I have lived out our life together and I not only see His nature and character being formed in me but I have heard His voice over these years and this has increased my faith in my Divine Companion, Jesus the Messiah, King of the Jews, King of kings and Lord of all. I am so grateful for the relationship Jesus offers us, that it is personal and intimate where we can talk to Him directly and He hears us in real time AND more importantly in my opinion, where He speaks to us directly and we can hear Him in real time. I guess AI will never experience this as they will never have the capacity to be seated beside God in Christ in the heavenly places as we are right now.

 

[Pierac]

The "HIM" who created the world, is the same, in both verses.

Its Jesus. "God manifested in the Flesh".

Its this... Colossians 1:16, also.

No it's not.... Your confused By the Hebrew concept of "agency"

I'm going to give you a "Spiritual Pearl" ... to show you... how you follow Men... and not Scripture as it reads.... Your wearing Church glasses... I'm going to take them off... So read carefully... to see If I speak the truth...

The Colossians Hymn
In so far as it is used by the "traditionalists" to justify belief in a personally preexistent Christ, the passage in Colossians 1:15-19 ranks right up there with John 1 and Philippians 2. It is easy to see how this conclusion is reached, when the passages read in the gridlock of "orthodoxy."

Paul wrote:
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,

We must carefully examine both the overall context and the particular phrases before rushing to the conclusion that the apostle is teaching that Jesus the son of God created the heavens and the earth, and that he is therefore coequal with God the Father, the second member of the Trinity.

Everything we have looked at so far would indicate that Paul has not suddenly done a back flip from his clearly stated belief that there is "one God, the Father… and one Lord, Jesus the Messiah" (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:5-6, etc.).

The overall context must be clearly borne in mind. Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not "the heavens and the earth" as per Genesis 1:1, but rather "all things in the heavens and [up]on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.

The apostle Paul is "giving thanks to the Father" because He "has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light," which is to say that God the Father has "delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved son" (v. 12-13). Paul is thus speaking of the new creation that God has effected through His Son Jesus. He is speaking of things that relate to "redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (v.14) and "the church" (v.18) and how through the Son of the Father God has "reconciled all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross" (v.20).

Kuschel in his book "Born Before All Time? p.331. Says, "the direct context of the Colossians hymn is itself of an eschatological kind and represents the ‘shift of the ages.’" G.E. Ladd in his book A Theology of the New Testament, p.323. states. “In other words, ‘the New Testament does not merely picture the resurrection of Jesus as the resurrection of a corpse, but as the emergence within time and space of a new order of life.’"

When the Father raised Jesus to life again it was not only an isolated historical event. It was more importantly the injection into history of the beginning of "the eschatological resurrection." Eternal life-the life of the ages to come-is guaranteed in Christ who is "the first fruits" of all who will follow. (1Cor.15:23). Jesus is the first of a whole crop of new-life first to come! A new order of things now exist. A new age in prospect has already begun. If "anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things [have] passed away; behold, new things have come" (2 Cor. 5:17).

To be baptized into Christ is to already in prospect be "in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:5). We are already "seated with Christ in the heavenlies" (Eph. 2:6). Because Christ has been raised to the glory of the Father, we are already in promise "glorified" (Rom. 8:30). We have been transferred into "the kingdom of His beloved Son" (Col. 1:13).

It is this tectonic shift in the ages that is the context of this hymn of praise. We are looking at a whole new order of things. The waves of this continental shift from the resurrection of Christ are rolling towards the distant shoreline of the coming Kingdom of God with tsunami-like power. Old authorities and structures have been rattled, for Christ is now the head of God's new creation. A new dynasty in God universe has been inaugurated.

Do you now see... ?
Paul

 

[PinSeeker]

To the question, "Did Jesus raise himself from the dead or did God the Father raise Him," my answer is:

Yes. :)

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Runningman]

Did Jesus raise himself from the dead or did God the father raise him​

Interesting question and it deserves attention because it raises some important questions.

If Jesus raised himself from the dead then he didn't die. A human body died, but the real Jesus didn't die. If Jesus is a human with a humans soul and human spirit then we don't have a problem and the sacrifice of Jesus is complete with God raising him from the dead.

If Jesus is a god man, then Jesus didn't die and there was never a sacrifice for sins. The problem the latter creates is that it results in Christianity being disproven.

Therefore, I believe Jesus is not God and that God raised Jesus from the dead.

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Hebrews 5
7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Twice Paul referred to salvation as a “prize”….(1 Cor 9:24 and Phil 3:14)…..a reward for keeping the faith despite opposition. The word in Greek is “brabeion” and it means…..

1. “the award to the victor in the games, a prize
2. metaph. of the heavenly reward for Christian character” (Strongs)

Yes, I see what you mean. And I agree. But I am also reminded that I shouldn't focus too much on the metaphor but devote my attention to the idea the metaphor points to. I suppose if Paul is suggesting that, in some way, he is earning his prize, i.e. salvation. I am okay with that, if that is what he means. Do you think that is what he means? As I say, I'm okay with whatever Paul intends to say.

So God does not expect us to endure the hardships of ‘the cramped and narrow road to life’ without hope of the reward…the “prize” of everlasting life….for the chosen ones it is life in heaven with Christ (“the upward call”) as “kings and priests” (Rev 20:6) and for others it is everlasting life in paradise on earth as their subjects. (Rev 21:2-4)

That is very encouraging. Thanks.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What is the reason WHY God decides to save someone? Why does he open THEIR MINDS and HEARTS to trust what the scriptures have to say? Whom does he use to instruct his sheep?

According to Romans 9, in Paul's view, God creates some people to demonstrate his wrath and others to demonstrate his mercy. And Paul argues that God's behavior is morally justified by virtue of the fact that God is our creator and he has the right to do with us as it suits him.

Exactly. But he uses human teachers as he has always done. (Heb 13:17)

I agree. But he also uses the Holy Spirit. Remember what Jesus said to Peter?

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

And also we have Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21

Somehow, God had direct access to Peter's mind and heart. Without the aid of flesh and blood, God revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ.

So who among those today who are in the role of “teachers”, are actually teaching “WHAT” Christ taught, accurately…..and who are the “weeds” of false “Christianity” who are leading the people whose hearts are NOT open to the truth, astray?

Good question and insightful.

Will those who accept the counterfeit, KNOW that they have been deceived? The answer is NO! They will be certain in their own hearts and minds that they have the truth whilst everyone else, who does not accept their beliefs, are wrong.

I agree, unfortunately many initially accept the counterfeit. But if God intends to save someone, he won't leave them that way.

Complete and utter rejection awaits those who were never awakened to the truth….why?….because they did not “love the truth” when they heard it (2 Thess 2:9-12)……it sounded like falsehood to them. Their pathetic pleading gets them nowhere. Christ says he “NEVER knew” them….”never” means “not ever”….so Jesus never set foot in any of their churches. A very sobering thought, isn’t it?

"I don't think I would phrase it like that. According to the teachings of Apostle Paul, God does not reject those who have not yet realized the truth. Instead, God rejects those who were once awakened to the truth but then chose to reject it." (Romans 1:18-23, Hebrews 6:4-6)

But I grieve along with you for those who have rejected the truth in exchange for wickedness instead.

Jesus said that God “looks for“ individuals whose hearts are open to him...those who are searching for something missing in their lives because they feel spiritually “lost”. A closed heart and mind cannot accept anything but what is already in there. The truth is like a heart transplant….the old worn out part is replaced by a new fully functioning one…..someone died to save that person….in our case it is Jesus who died to give us a new heart….but only if we want one.

Yes, well said in my opinion. I would add Jesus's comment about drawing all people to himself, and his statement that only those whom the Father gave him will hear the call and follow Jesus.

But I disagree that ”no one is born with a natural inclination to worship and believe in God”. Humankind are virtually ‘programmed’ to worship, and we can see how the devil has hijacked this natural inclination in us and turned it into something that furthers his own agenda. He wants our worship.

I agree with your view that human beings are programmed to worship. But not all human beings are programed to believe God and trust his word. Some people satisfy their innate need to worship through idolatry.

Humans will worship what their hearts tell them is a “god” to them.

Yup.

Are they aware of what they are doing? I don’t think so. “Blinded minds” are not open to anything outside of their own mindset. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

Zoe and I have talked about this a lot. She believes that they know what they are doing. I tend to agree.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul is defining “faith” here. The whole of Hebrews ch. 11 is dedicated to men and women of faith in times past….those who hoped in the promised seed, and the coming Kingdom of God, but who never got to know him, or to know about him, and what he taught. (Heb 11:39-40) They had some idea about the coming Kingdom, but they did not know the details that were revealed only when Christ came.

Did Paul intend to define faith or its relationship with justification? Verse 2 seems to indicate that Paul intended to define the relationship between faith and justification. He says, "For by it the men of old gained approval." Paul often links Faith to the idea of obtaining God's approval. This is why I disagree with those who say that Paul is defining faith here.

This is true too, though not negating what Paul defines as “faith”. “The assured expectation” of the things that the scriptures tell us to “hope” for. “Hope“ is what serves as an “anchor for the soul”. (Heb 6:17-19)

I don't think Paul meant that his statement applies in a general sense. His focus is solely on God's approval, which is the specific unseen thing he refers to. It's similar to gravity - you can't see it, but you know it exists because things fall to the ground and planets revolve around the sun. Paul intends to say that just as a falling apple is evidence of gravity, faith is evidence of God's approval.

I don't want to belabor the point, but I am aware of some who claim that faith is a valid way of obtaining knowledge. While we usually rely on reason or evidence to believe in something, faith allows us to accept things without concrete proof. I'm not implying that this is your perspective, but I feel compelled to defend the Biblical idea of faith every time it comes up. :)

Those who teach that faith is another form of knowing something use this verse as a proof text, and in my opinion, this verse doesn't say what they think it says.

And yet Paul speaks of “the Israel of God” as having “peace”, whereas natural Israel has never known peace since the days of the few good kings in ancient times. Peace comes as a result of God’s blessings…..and spiritual Israel are at peace because they are “no part of this world”…..they have no patriotic aspirations or loyalties, or political leanings because Jesus is our leader, not any president or prime minister. We can live in the world, but not be any part of it. (John 17:16) No government can force us to break God’s laws….or tell us not to do what Christ commanded must be done in these “last days”. (2 Tim 3:1-5; Matt 28:19-20)

I'm just not comfortable with those categories because I am not convinced that they are Biblical. I don't see two distinct and different meanings of "Israel", which allows us to contrast "natural Israel" with "Spiritual Israel."

The Epistle to the Galatians draws a contrast between those who are "circumcised of the flesh" and those who are "circumcised without hands." It's important to note that this contrast is not purely ethnic. While it's true that during Paul's time, Jewish people were more likely to be circumcised of the flesh, it's also possible for someone who is circumcised of the flesh to also be circumcised of the heart.

Paul's reference to "the Israel of God" seems to indicate "the Israel that God instituted and defined" as opposed to the "Israel" that the Judaizers innovated.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, I see what you mean. And I agree. But I am also reminded that I shouldn't focus too much on the metaphor but devote my attention to the idea the metaphor points to. I suppose if Paul is suggesting that, in some way, he is earning his prize, i.e. salvation. I am okay with that, if that is what he means. Do you think that is what he means? As I say, I'm okay with whatever Paul intends to say.

None of us can “earn” the “prize”....it is a free gift, but we do need to qualify for it when we understand why some are drawn to the truth, but others are repelled by it. God allows our hearts to be what they are. The old saying was “you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear”.....Jehovah is looking for the silk purses among us, even if the silkworms have not quite finished providing the materials yet.

According to Romans 9, in Paul's view, God creates some people to demonstrate his wrath and others to demonstrate his mercy. And Paul argues that God's behavior is morally justified by virtue of the fact that God is our creator and he has the right to do with us as it suits him.

Yes, he does not want to turn those ‘sow’s ears’ into ‘silk purses’ against their will. He wants us to come to him on bended knee, heart in hand, acknowledging our sinful condition and asking for his direction in our lives. To even create a new heart for us if the old one is damaged by the trials of this life. There are a lot of broken hearts out there and so a Christian’s mission is to search for those damaged souls and heal them with God’s promises of a wonderful future....this is the hope that serves to anchor the soul, not allowing it to wander off into fantasyland, but to give a sure and solid hope in keeping with the reason why God put us here on this Earth in the first place.....This is what I believe the majority never consider......that what we lost in Genesis is restored in Revelation....that is the big picture.

God can leave those who have no love for the truth to be themselves and to cling to their delusions if that is their desire. We all have free will and we will all be judged on how we exercise it.

I agree. But he also uses the Holy Spirit. Remember what Jesus said to Peter?

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

And also we have Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21

Somehow, God had direct access to Peter's mind and heart. Without the aid of flesh and blood, God revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ.

Yes, the apostles did indeed have God’s holy spirit, and it guided them as they undertook the work that their Master assigned to them after his return to heaven. He promised them that he would be “with” them “all the days until the end of the age”, (Matt 28:19-20) so Jesus knows where the spirit will be most helpful and promised that it would be operative on human hearts, till “the end”. But he commissioned his disciples to take his message out to the people.....they were not to sit in their buildings waiting for people to wander in.

At Matthew 24:14, as part of Jesus prophesy on the end times, he said...
“And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”
All of the features of the “sign” (of Jesus “presence”, not “coming”) have been fulfilled except one....and that is the outbreak of “the great tribulation”......”such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.” (Matt 24:21-22)

We know that Jesus used the last days of the Jewish system as a model of what would occur at his return.
Those who failed to heed Jesus’ warning to “flee to the mountains”, were trapped in Jerusalem when the Roman armies returned in 70 C.E, to finish what they started in 66 C.E.
Those who fled were blessed with the saving of their lives, but those who failed to heed the warning regretted their decision. (Luke 21:20-28)

The tribulation visited upon those disobedient Jews was horrific. Josephus relates the grizzly details of starvation and cannabalism. We will again see such a tribulation in our day, but this time, on a global scale. Unless the days were cut short, (“on account of the chosen ones”) “no flesh would be saved”.....who then are “the chosen ones”?.....

Imagine the faith needed to pull up stakes and leave your home and employment to go to a place you may never have been before.....yet the faithful Christians did just that. They took a few provisions and left as Jesus instructed, not going back to retrieve things that would weigh them down on the journey. They fled to the city of Pella in the mountains which was a free city like the other towns of Decapolis . . . To take refuge there was to openly avow horror of the [Jewish] revolt (the Christians remained neutral in matters of politics and were no part of the Jewish revolt). . . It was in this anti-Jewish town that the Christians found refuge during the horrors of the siege, and they stated a new life there from scratch, with virtually nothing but the clothes on their backs.

Imagine also what faith it must have taken to stay put, when the Roman armies left inexplicably in 66 C.E for no apparent reason, giving them a window of opportunity to leave the doomed city, but they did not return for 4 years! Any who were tempted to go back and resume their businesses and their lives found themselves trapped under another siege.....the Romans cut off all supplies and starved many to death before they breached the walls.....killed others with the sword......and sold others into slavery. What a horrible end they suffered for their failure to exercise faith in the one sent to rescue them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I agree, unfortunately many initially accept the counterfeit. But if God intends to save someone, he won't leave them that way.

Yes indeed. I was one of those. I never doubted what my church taught, until I started to notice things that made me want to question everything....I started to see Pharisees instead of God’s ministers. I saw these men supporting the wars of their nations, giving lip service to the “Prince of Peace” while aiding and abetting the bloodshed of war. And it didn’t seem to matter if a fellow “brother in Christ” was on the opposing side....they were to kill them, praying for God to give them victory! Whose side was God on, I wondered? (1 John 4:19-21)
There were many more things but space will not allow....I am long winded at the best of times....

I left the church in my late teens, searching for the God I knew was there, but never finding him in any of Christendom’s churches. In fact the more I looked, the more disgusted I became.

Long story short.....Jehovah found me, sending his servants to give me the good news of his kingdom, and he opened up his truth to me. I am now a perpetual Bible student....and I will never graduate from this educational training, thinking that I know it all....the more I learn, the more I realize how much more there is to learn. It is my privilege to impart knowledge to others who also want to learn the truth and come into God’s earthly family of worshippers, who all believe the same truth. (1 Cor 1:10)

According to the teachings of Apostle Paul, God does not reject those who have not yet realized the truth. Instead, God rejects those who were once awakened to the truth but then chose to reject it." (Romans 1:18-23, Hebrews 6:4-6)

Yes I agree, and for one who reads hearts, he also knows when one is a lost cause. Jehovah did not send Jesus to the religious leaders, but to “the lost sheep” for whom those negligent shepherds had no affection at all. But once enlightened, there is no going back....you cannot unlearn the truth.

As Peter said....
“Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”
Says it all really.....

But I grieve along with you for those who have rejected the truth in exchange for wickedness instead.

If we are grieving...imagine how Jehovah and Jesus feel....? Isn’t that why Christ sent his servants out to preach? It was a ‘search and rescue mission’, one that was to continue “all the days, until the end of the age”, which we believe is fast approaching. So who is out there with the good news, searching for the lost sheep? Any of the churches?

In all my years as a dedicated Christian, I have never been visited by any church member who came to give me “the good news of the kingdom”......and in speaking to many professed “Christians”, I came to understand why......they have no idea what God’s kingdom is, and what it will accomplish in the big picture....they have no big picture! They have nothing to tell people......they have no idea why we are here, and what God intends the future of planet Earth to be, yet it is all there in the Bible.

The trouble is, the churches of Christendom spoon feed people who have never been encouraged to study the Bible for themselves. They give the impression that you need college degrees to understand the scriptures and that you must just listen to them because they have studied “theology”....which is more about promoting man-made doctrines than it is about God or the Bible. Why did Jesus reject the Pharisees? He said...”It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” (Matt 15.7-9)

Zoe and I have talked about this a lot. She believes that they know what they are doing. I tend to agree.

It’s the difference between someone who is already set in their minds, (as though in concrete) and one who has beliefs that are not so set that they lose their power of reason.

Some reject God outright, (today more than ever) and some figure that a little religion is a bit like insurance.....you get what you pay for....and still others dive in up to their necks in their religious traditions and rituals thinking that God will reward such devotion....but it’s given to the church and not to God, who demands no rituals or traditions at all.

The ones God is looking for are those who just want “the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”....no matter how much they have to give up (or sacrifice) for that truth. It comes at a price. (John 15:18-21)

The apostle Peter said something interesting when Jesus’ preaching upset many of his audience when he spoke about ‘eating his flesh and drinking his blood’.....as Jews, they were horrified and without asking any questions, they left in disgust.
John 6:66-69.....
“Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve: “You do not want to go also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

Instead of dismissing what we think is nonsense, or not what we want to hear, we should investigate the Bible for ourselves, but not allowing pre-conceived ideas to color what the Bible says. Christendom cherry picks its verses to imply what it does not teach......we have to know when the wool is being pulled over our eyes because history is repeating......the very same methods satan used in the past, he is using again because he knows they work.....human nature does not change and human hearts are designed to trust......he uses that trust to lead people away from God.....yet the majority are led willingly by a divided and disunited church system that gives them what they want.

How can we discern the truth among so much falsehood? Only God can lead a willing heart out of that mire.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, and some details Jesus spoke directly to certain people called for a response of faith and action from that individual like Nicodemus or Zacchaeus.

Yes, he spoke very directly to those ones when he was in the flesh. We know that Zacchaeus responded favorably, and humbly admitted his crooked dealing, promising to pay back what he gained by fraud, fourfold....he even pledged to give half of his belongings to the poor.....what a wonderful change of character....but Jesus must have detected the good in him and decided to stay with this man, no doubt to teach him a thing or two about honesty.

Nicodemus OTOH, was given a good witness about what it means to be "born again" but the record does not tell us if he became a Christian....as a Pharisee it would have been a difficult thing. (as Paul was to find out later)

I love that this same Jesus has been communicating with individuals for the past 2000 years and communicates directly with individuals right now which requires faith in the unseen invisible Shepherd by the visible sheep.

Actually what Jesus promised his disciples before he left, was that the operation of God's spirit would help the disciples to carry on the work he started.
I do not recall anyone but Saul of Tarsus hearing the voice of the resurrected Jesus, and that only because he was a "chosen vessel"....a zealous and educated man who would be given a special assignment.

Since God in flesh has become invisible, I guess our faith has to be even greater, 2 fold, a faith in WHO we do not see and a faith in WHAT he tells the individual.

Since I have no belief that Jesus was anything other than what he called himself, ("the son of God") our faith has to be like his.....he prayed to his God and Father, and taught us to do the same. In the Lord's prayer, he addressed it to "OUR Father who art in heaven" so Jesus was on earth, praying to his Father in heaven...he is Jesus' Father as well as ours. Was he praying to himself?

We can have faith in the scriptures because these tell us about Christ's teachings. But as for direct communication with the resurrected Jesus on an individual basis, I see no scriptural foundation for that at all. Christ taught collectively to many thousands of people and yet the ones he spoke to individually, were while he was in the flesh.

My trust in my Divine Shepherd has grown over the years as He and I have lived out our life together and I not only see His nature and character being formed in me but I have heard His voice over these years and this has increased my faith in my Divine Companion, Jesus the Messiah, King of the Jews, King of kings and Lord of all. I am so grateful for the relationship Jesus offers us, that it is personal and intimate where we can talk to Him directly and He hears us in real time AND more importantly in my opinion, where He speaks to us directly and we can hear Him in real time.

Its nice that you think that way, but I can see no basis for believing that it is Jesus that we are to communicate with.
Jesus taught us to pray to "our Father in heaven", as he did.....he did not ever tell us to pray to himself....nor did he ever seek worship for himself. It is very strange to me that Jesus would communicate with individuals after his return to heaven, when he said that he would appoint a "faithful and wise servant" to "feed" his entire household of fellow servants, their "food at the proper time"...he was speaking about spiritual food. (Matt 24:45) This slave is not an individual, but a collective of anointed ones who have been chosen by God for the "upward call"...."the heavenly calling". (Heb 3:1) But not all receive that 'calling'....which is why they are called "the chosen ones".
They are chosen for life in heaven as "kings and priests", serving those of redeemed mankind on earth. (Rev 20:6; Rev 21:2-4)

I guess AI will never experience this as they will never have the capacity to be seat ed beside God in Christ in the heavenly places as we are right now.

The only one seated beside God is his son.....they are two separate individuals......the chosen ones have places in heaven where Jesus said he went to "prepare a place" for them.
John 14:2-4....
"2 In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be. 4 And where I am going, you know the way.”

Those ones will have the privilege of ruling with Christ in heaven and he promised to take them there when he returned.
Earth bound ones of "the heavenly calling" will take their places in heaven when Christ takes the full number of his bride to their new home. That is when "the marriage of the Lamb" takes place.

 

[Peterlag]

God raised Himself from the dead, for He is not the God of the dead.

I never read a verse that said God raised Himself from the dead. Have you?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Is the Bible contradicting for who raised Jesus.
John 10.18 says he did but what do you think

The Triune God did. Scriptures describing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit raising Christ from the dead show that they are ONE.

 

[One 2 question]

Yes, he spoke very directly to those ones when he was in the flesh.

John 10:2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

I do not recall anyone but Saul of Tarsus hearing the voice of the resurrected Jesus

John 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

We can have faith in the scriptures because these tell us about Christ's teachings.

Yes, but you would agree that this is extremely limited. The disciples Jesus had when He was in the flesh saw so much of what Jesus did and taught. Most of which were not written down of course. John 21:25 And even if they were, Jesus said, I have so much more to tell You, more than you can now bear…..John 16:12-15

Was he praying to himself?

There was no advocate available to Jesus. We have an Advocate “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1)

But as for direct communication with the resurrected Jesus on an individual basis, I see no scriptural foundation for that at all. Christ taught collectively to many thousands of people and yet the ones he spoke to individually, were while he was in the flesh.

Yes, it appears that there isn’t any recorded instance in the bible giving an example of the Shepherd speaking to His sheep after Paul. Yet here lies a limitation of the bible. It hasn’t recorded any communication between Jesus the Shepherd and His sheep, the Head and His body. Nor can the bible, as it stopped recording Jesus’s interaction with His sheep and body around 1928 years ago. Because something isn’t recorded doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. We agree on this, as you said about Nicodemus … but the record does not tell us if he became a Christian. I’m thinking you meant the bible. And here is where we have the opportunity to find out if he did or not. For there is One Who was actually there that night Who we can ask. If you don’t feel comfortable with asking Him, enquire of His Father so that He can ask Jesus for the details and pass them on to you. That’ if you are allowed to do this? Actually Jesus said while in the flesh and it was recorded, John 15 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. And, John 16:23 & 24 Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.

Its nice that you think that way, but I can see no basis for believing that it is Jesus that we are to communicate with.

Did Jesus tell us not to communicate with Him? Does Jesus need an advocate to communicate with us? Do I need an advocate to communicate with my Eldest Brother Jesus? It sounds like God is making it somewhat difficult to communicate with us and us with Him and He’s made it even more challenging for us to communicate with His Son, our Eldest Brother and Friend and for Him to interact with us His sheep, His body parts. Next thing we know is that the Spirit Father sent to us will not or cannot communicate with us and us with Him. I would ask, is He deaf? Is He dumb? No way, for He is the One Who takes from Jesus and makes things known to us, as does Jesus, as does Father. John 16:13-15.

Jesus taught us to pray to "our Father in heaven", as he did.....he did not ever tell us to pray to himself....nor did he ever seek worship for himself. It is very strange to me that Jesus would communicate with individuals after his return to heaven

Thanks for being honest and respectful by saying, It is very strange to me ….. instead of attacking my experience. I am very glad that the Shepherd has communicated to me and many others through the Spirit sent to me from God the Father so that I can hear Them clearly and directly and live. Sure, sometimes They may not respond to me straight away but most often They do get back to me. I try to get myself into a space where I can receive what They are communicating with me. Everyone is different. Actually I would love to hear how others experience direct communication with God, the Son of God and the Spirit of God.

 

[Peterlag]

Even though I need not have to read about it in a book, to know the truth,
it is written in the bible.

I the LORD do all these things. Is not Jesus the LORD of Lords?

One of the things God cannot do is die.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I never read a verse that said God raised Himself from the dead. Have you?

No, not really. I think the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the Dead depending on how we interpret the following passage.

Romans 8:9-11

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.​

​

Who is the "him' in the sentence I underlined? If the Spirit of the Father is the Holy Spirit, then it was the Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. In any case, it wasn't Jesus who raised himself from the dead.

 

[Peterlag]

No, not really. I think the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the Dead depending on how we interpret the following passage.

Romans 8:9-11

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.​

​

Who is the "him' in the sentence I underlined? If the Spirit of the Father is the Holy Spirit, then it was the Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. In any case, it wasn't Jesus who raised himself from the dead.

WOW... what a breath of fresh air... to read something on here that makes sense.

 

[CadyandZoe]

None of us can “earn” the “prize”....it is a free gift, but we do need to qualify for it when we understand why some are drawn to the truth, but others are repelled by it. God allows our hearts to be what they are. The old saying was “you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear”.....Jehovah is looking for the silk purses among us, even if the silkworms have not quite finished providing the materials yet.

The picture you paint here is what I would call the process of "selection," which is the process of choosing silk purses according to a set of criteria. But since God is the creator, doesn't he make silk purses?

Yes, he does not want to turn those ‘sow’s ears’ into ‘silk purses’ against their will. He wants us to come to him on bended knee, heart in hand, acknowledging our sinful condition and asking for his direction in our lives.

I get the sense that you are trying to protect human freedom. Is human freewill so inviolable that even God can't or won't infringe on it?

To even create a new heart for us if the old one is damaged by the trials of this life. There are a lot of broken hearts out there and so a Christian’s mission is to search for those damaged souls and heal them with God’s promises of a wonderful future....this is the hope that serves to anchor the soul, not allowing it to wander off into fantasyland, but to give a sure and solid hope in keeping with the reason why God put us here on this Earth in the first place.....This is what I believe the majority never consider......that what we lost in Genesis is restored in Revelation....that is the big picture.

I like the sentiment here and I agree with much of what you say. I would only like to add that some hopes are subject to nonfulfillment. A young woman, for instance, might hope that she will receive a pony for Christmas. Maybe she will, maybe she won't. Will her parents buy her a pony? Did they promise? Are they reliable, and do they have access to resources? If she can honestly answer yes to all of these questions, then her confidence level will be high. If not, then she will undoubtedly be disappointed on Christmas morning.

Romans chapter 5 reveals that a believer can be confident in the fact that their hope will not be unfulfilled if God has poured out his Spirit into their heart. This assurance can only come after one has gone through trials of faith. The ability to persevere in faith is a clear indication of God's supernatural help.

Retrospection is the anchor for our soul after we have been tested and remained in Christ.

God can leave those who have no love for the truth to be themselves and to cling to their delusions if that is their desire. We all have free will and we will all be judged on how we exercise it.

Yes, I agree with that.

The tribulation visited upon those disobedient Jews was horrific. Josephus relates the grizzly details of starvation and cannabalism. We will again see such a tribulation in our day, but this time, on a global scale. Unless the days were cut short, (“on account of the chosen ones”) “no flesh would be saved”.....who then are “the chosen ones”?.....

In my view, Jesus is still talking about his kinsmen. And I like what you said earlier about a life-and-death decision that guided believers during the Jewish wars of 70AD. I think the prophets speak about another milestone moment when the Jews will need to make another life-and-death decision. And only those who make the correct decision, based on trusting what God said, will be saved.

What a horrible end they suffered for their failure to exercise faith in the one sent to rescue them.

Yes, I am reminded of Joel's prophecy and his declaration that "those who call upon the name of the Lord shall live." Joel meant this literally and I believe this prophesy will be realized in the near future. The Jewish people will hear a call to come to Jerusalem. Those who hear the call will be saved. Isaiah calls them "survivors." (Isaiah 4:3)

p.s. It takes me a while to respond to your posts since they are filled with very thoughtful comments. Thanks. :)