To you and alike, if Jesus is not God and the Holy Spirit is not God, in union with GOD the FATHER in Heaven ? Then apparently, we have nothing in common nor have fellowship in common.
Did Jesus claim to be God?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
There is a big difference between being “in union with God the Father” and believing that Jesus and the holy spirit are all “one God” with the Father......1+1+1=3.....and I thank God for his truth, every day....releasing me from the shackles that still bind you and all who hold the devil’s “three false beliefs” in common.
All false religion (self-proclaimed “Christian” and non-Christian) in essence, believe what you believe.....in a multiplicity of gods, (often in triads).....an immortal soul that survives the death of the body....and a hell of eternal torment for those who do not believe as they do....if you hold any or all of these doctrines, then you do not have the teachings of the Christ...you have only been led to believe that you do....the devil’s trifecta of deception.
And you can never say that no one told you the truth....like the Jews could never say that no one told them the truth about Jesus. We will all reap from whatever seeds we have allowed to grow in our hearts....
The reapers are standing at the ready.....and ”many” will be shocked at the rejection they receive. (Matt 7:21-23)
@Aunty Jane
This was written well...
Edited by me
I hope the readers here see the truth in what you do not say... because you have no defense, and so you must act as if no one has said anything you cannot refute. The truth is, you have not and cannot refute the scriptural evidence put before you because of your own indoctrination. It’s a special kind of blindness.
The truth is right there in front of you, but the denial is not from the scriptural evidence you provided, but from belief in a “church-made” doctrine that you hold so tightly (you cannot be a Christian unless you believe in the trinity) that it does not allow the truth to penetrate.
It comes from not wanting to admit that you could be wrong. If the foundation is seen to be crumbling, then will the whole building collapse? Heaven forbid!!!
This was written well...
Edited by me
I hope the readers here see the truth in what you do not say... because you have no defense, and so you must act as if no one has said anything you cannot refute. The truth is, you have not and cannot refute the scriptural evidence put before you because of your own indoctrination. It’s a special kind of blindness.
The truth is right there in front of you, but the denial is not from the scriptural evidence you provided, but from belief in a “church-made” doctrine that you hold so tightly (you cannot be a Christian unless you believe in the trinity) that it does not allow the truth to penetrate.
It comes from not wanting to admit that you could be wrong. If the foundation is seen to be crumbling, then will the whole building collapse? Heaven forbid!!!
‘On whose authority’, about what?
If you meant about John 1:1 rendered, “….and the Word was godlike / a god / a powerful one”, take your pick:
- Rev. Dr. Philip B. Harner….
In his article “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1,” Dr. Harner states that such clauses as the one in John 1:1 “with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos.” He suggests: “Perhaps the clause could be translated, ‘the Word had the same nature as God.’” (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87)
(In other words, in this text, the fact that the word the·osʹ in its second occurrence is without the definite article (ho) and is placed before the verb in the sentence in Greek is significant. Interestingly, translators that insist on rendering John 1:1, “The Word was God,” do not hesitate to use the indefinite article (a, an) in their rendering of other passages where a singular anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb. Thus at John 6:70, The Jerusalem Bible and King James both refer to Judas Iscariot as “a devil,” and at John 9:17 they describe Jesus as “a prophet.”)
- Highly acclaimed scholar & Roman Catholic (trinitarian) priest John L. McKenzie, S.J….
In his Dictionary of the Bible, he says: “Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Bold is mine. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (New York, 1965), p. 317.
- The context…
The Word was with THE God, yet he is THE God?
John writes, “no one has ever seen God” (vs.18), but thousands saw Jesus. Yet he is THE God?
This is one reason why, to agree with context, many translations have rendered John 1:1….
- ““and the word was a god””
- The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.
- ““and a god was the Word””
- The Emphatic Diaglott (J21, interlinear reading), by trinitarian Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.
- ““and the Word was divine””
- The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago.
- ““and the Word was a god””
- New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, Brooklyn.
- ““and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word””
- Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany.
- ““and godlike sort was the Logos””
- Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.
- ““and a god was the Logos””
- Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Jürgen Becker, Würzburg, Germany.
- “and the Word was a powerful one.”
- www.2001translation.com, an online and interactive Bible
It’s first for a reason!
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That's your carnal discerned theory based on the wisdom of this world, about our believe, and you're falsely rolling with it.
Here's our Heavenly wisdom from above, 1 + 1 + 1 = 1
Even though three person, but they are 'one' with each other in all matters, subjected alone to 'one' authority. Whereas, the Son is the 'one', the visible image in representation to all creation.
Like the FATHER, like the Son, like the Spirit, three in 'one' representation, period
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
1. Language Usage. O' is short for OF. OF does not mean IS. "Of" is a preposition, which connects 2 things. "In" is another preposition. If one were to say Fred is "in" the house, it does not mean you are a house ...
No one is denying Jesus is OF God - servant, apostle, priest, lamb, son, word, etc. What belongs to God or comes from God is not God.
Beyond that, I believe the most obvious proof in Scripture that dispels this IDOLATRY is the ubiquitous juxtaposing of "God with "Jesus." For instance, Romans 10:9 says "God raised Jesus from the dead." If Jesus were God, there would not be one single verse that does this - but there are many.
IF such verses invoked "the Father" in each case that would be suggestive. When Scripture invokes the term "God" it means all of God, in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature. This God is apart from Jesus, the subject of the sentence doing the acting. Jesus is the object of the sentence, being acted upon. 2 persons. 2 Beings.
Lebron James was a member OF the Cleveland Cavaliers. This is not construed to mean Lebron "is" the Cleveland Cavaliers. Hillary Clinton was a member OF the Obama Administration. This is not construed to mean Hillary is Obama. Language usage.
2. Facts & Logic
This fact is the type of fact we can have the highest confidence in; it is a demonstrable fact. The most important demonstrable fact in Scripture proving beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus is not God is that Jesus died.
P1. God is eternal and cannot die. (Isaiah 40:28, 1 Timothy 1:17)
P2. Jesus died.
C. Jesus is not God
Sorry am not interested in your mortal gospel version sermons.
When we've already attained our spiritual one, which plainly goes by, 'As it is written'.
You've been exposed as, 'a blind guide to the blind', therefore, fellowship with your kind, and no thank you.
John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24 indicate Jesus is the lone Creator God YHVH the LORD Jehovah. ← Genesis 1:1.
Even the fraud New World Translation can't hide this.
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God is a unity of plurality.
Examples of unities of plurality include:
- corporations
- cities
- families
There is only one elohiym: Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
The question did Jesus claim to be God, presupposes an objective answer.
Here is a question that needs a fact, which I can handle at a distance and either accept or reject.
What if the real question is who am I and who is God, what is His nature and intent?
This is a much deeper and involved issue. It touches on our hearts, our loves and hates, our openness.
So for man the question is if Jesus is God, can I accept that?
If the answer is before the question is asked, no, I reject all gods other than myself, Jesus is dismissed.
The road of discovery. Without removing our own biases, guilt, hurt, sin and history, we cannot see God.
Jesus said this "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God" Matt 5:8
Truth is a strange thing. A few words can summarise the mountain top of a point of truth, but what it
is founded upon, its context and situation define its real truth and meaning.
So Jesus saying "I and the Father are one" has many possible meanings.
A Buddist desires to be one with the universe, losing their separateness.
Being one with someone else means total agreement, but this can be on one point or attitude.
We clearly know people who are one on one issue, yet fall out on many others.
Equally Hindu ideas of gods walking the earth in incarnations is common. But these gods vary
in their approach and dealings with people.
Jesus came to the Jews because the context was defined and the boundaries of who and what God
is has been set out over 2000 years of history.
But to be in the presence of the Father and to see His face is to die. It is unknown if anyone can
be in the Fathers presence. Israel history is of a few who got close to the Father and everyone else
died.
So Jesus calls to us to explore what He means, and how this works out.
So when people ask did Jesus claim to be God, you have to begin to ask what God and what is the
suggested claim?
Jesus's criticism of the Pharisees is that the Lord's heart is in love, justice, mercy, faithfulness yet they
claimed to know the Lord but their hearts were full of evil.
So when I say Jesus is God, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, I say this because I see the context
and its meaning and walk with Him. His words and actions sow a relationship and story that is
unbreakable.
God bless you
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Sorry but you have misinterpreted those verses....and @Peterlag is not a JW.
The NWT can hold its own with any other translation because of its accuracy.
John 1:3 says...”All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
Creation came “THROUGH” the son, meaning that he was the agency, acting for his Father.
Colossians 1:16...says “all things have been created through Him and for Him.”
All things were created by God “THROUGH” and “FOR” his son.
Isa 44:24...
“This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser,
Who formed you since you were in the womb:
“I am Jehovah, who made everything.
I stretched out the heavens by myself,
And I spread out the earth.
Who was with me?”
Read in context chapter 44 of Isaiah is God rightly affirming his Godship amid the false gods of the nations and their lifeless idols. He alone is the Creator....he is the only one ever called the Creator. Jesus never once said that he was. Proverbs 8:30-31 shows that the son was the “Master Workman” alongside of his Father in creation. That means that God was speaking directly to his son in Genesis 1:26.....he is the “us” and “our” mentioned there. God was not talking to himself.
Where do the scriptures tell us that God is a corporation?....a city?....or a family?
Deuteronomy 6:4 tells us that “God is one”.....not three.
The apostles tell us that they worshiped “one God the Father” and that there is “one Lord, Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 8:5-6) They never were told to worship Jesus or the holy spirit.
ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼeloʹah, sometimes in the numerical sense, but more often it signifies the plural of majesty, dignity or excellence.
ʼElo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural) and to men....so NOT only one Elohim.
Yet, GOD the FATHER was the 'overseer', for 'by Jesus' and 'for Jesus', GOD the FATHER oversee the project being completed. (Genesis 1:26)
No, no, no, rather the FATHER is the only true GOD. While the Son is the image of the invisible FATHER, and the creator of all things. The Holy Spirit is the Power of GOD in action, the executer of all things spoken by the Son the Word, to come to life.
Remember, GOD the FATHER is the HEAD of Christ, and Christ is the Head of every man, and man is the head of the woman ? (1Corinthians11:3)
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Rev 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Jhn 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Eze 28:22
And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.
Heb 5:5
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
I see, Night and Day.
And the Evening and the Morning was the first Day.
The lamb is the light of the glory of God.
So is the morning sun the glory of the dark of night.
The city had no need of the sun or the moon:
Isa 30:26
Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
Seven is such an interesting number.
Seven heads, seven days, sevenfold, seven times, seven trumpets, seven vials...
And Jesus is the first and the last.
In the beginning ... God said, Let there be light... and the Light of the lamb is the Glory of God.
And God saw that the light was good.
There is none good but God.
In the beginning was the Word. God said.
and God seperated the light from the darkness...
Mar 10:9
What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Jhn 10:30
I and my Father are one.
1Th 5:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Gen 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And now I see Death and Life.
Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Gen 12:3
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Deu 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Jhn 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Col 4:11
And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.
Luk 22:29
And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Luk 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Pro 12:28
In the way of righteousness is life; and in the pathway thereof there is no death.
Psa 23:4
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Ecc 8:8
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.
hmm..
Luk 23:22
And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.
Act 13:28
And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
Rom 6:9
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
We are so limited to 3D thinking. I believe God is multidimensional.
Day/Night Good/Evil Life/Death.. Each has it's place and time.
I hear Solomon and his seasons for everything under.... the Sun. Son.
God has a Kingdom and Jesus has a Kingdom.
Each Kingdom has it's own authority and it's own rules.
The Father has a Kingdom and the Son has a Kingdom.
And the Son is the Glory of the Father, he is the Light thereof.
You cannot have a day without an evening and a morning in this mortal 3D life.
But in the Spiritual, there is neither day nor night it is only Day.
There is no death in life.
Jhn 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
So who is Satan?
Death/darkness/evening/night/ignorance/evil....
Exalteth
Luk 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
2Co 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Th 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Did God have two sons?
And what does it mean to be begotten?
Heb 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Now we know Abraham had two sons, but the last who was made first was by promise.
In the beginning God created... there was no Light until God said, let there be Light.
In the beginning was darkness.. and the earth was void and without form, chaos.
And God saw that the Light was good.
And God separated the darkness from the light?
So did God divide himself?
Divisions.. multiplications.. the bible is mathematical and I didn't do very well in math.
LOL
Dad was moved to rehab yesterday. I'll be travelling a lot today to visit with him.
It seems the chaos has passed and we are moving into better days :)
Hopefully he will be able to come home soon.
There's so much to think about.
Hugs
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Jhn 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Eze 28:22
And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.
Heb 5:5
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
I see, Night and Day.
And the Evening and the Morning was the first Day.
The lamb is the light of the glory of God.
So is the morning sun the glory of the dark of night.
The city had no need of the sun or the moon:
Isa 30:26
Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
Seven is such an interesting number.
Seven heads, seven days, sevenfold, seven times, seven trumpets, seven vials...
And Jesus is the first and the last.
In the beginning ... God said, Let there be light... and the Light of the lamb is the Glory of God.
And God saw that the light was good.
There is none good but God.
In the beginning was the Word. God said.
and God seperated the light from the darkness...
Mar 10:9
What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Jhn 10:30
I and my Father are one.
1Th 5:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Gen 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And now I see Death and Life.
Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Gen 12:3
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Deu 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Jhn 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Col 4:11
And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.
Luk 22:29
And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Luk 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Pro 12:28
In the way of righteousness is life; and in the pathway thereof there is no death.
Psa 23:4
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Ecc 8:8
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.
hmm..
Luk 23:22
And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.
Act 13:28
And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
Rom 6:9
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
We are so limited to 3D thinking. I believe God is multidimensional.
Day/Night Good/Evil Life/Death.. Each has it's place and time.
I hear Solomon and his seasons for everything under.... the Sun. Son.
God has a Kingdom and Jesus has a Kingdom.
Each Kingdom has it's own authority and it's own rules.
The Father has a Kingdom and the Son has a Kingdom.
And the Son is the Glory of the Father, he is the Light thereof.
You cannot have a day without an evening and a morning in this mortal 3D life.
But in the Spiritual, there is neither day nor night it is only Day.
There is no death in life.
Jhn 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
So who is Satan?
Death/darkness/evening/night/ignorance/evil....
Exalteth
Luk 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
2Co 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Th 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Did God have two sons?
And what does it mean to be begotten?
Heb 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Now we know Abraham had two sons, but the last who was made first was by promise.
In the beginning God created... there was no Light until God said, let there be Light.
In the beginning was darkness.. and the earth was void and without form, chaos.
And God saw that the Light was good.
And God separated the darkness from the light?
So did God divide himself?
Divisions.. multiplications.. the bible is mathematical and I didn't do very well in math.
LOL
Dad was moved to rehab yesterday. I'll be travelling a lot today to visit with him.
It seems the chaos has passed and we are moving into better days :)
Hopefully he will be able to come home soon.
There's so much to think about.
Hugs
And, they are three in 'oneness' and 'togetherness' with each other, thus manifest in 'one person representation'
Jesus said, "I am in the FATHER and the FATHER is in Me."
The full characteristic of the FATHER and HIS every word is in the Son, unless ones in due time HE reveals to the Son. But, the power of GOD the FATHER manifests from He the Holy Spirit, even from within the Son who spoke the word.
John1:3
'All things were made by Him, ........
The FATHER made all things by the Son.
'and without Him was not any thing made that was made.'
The FATHER did not make any thing without the Son, nor any thing can come to exist that exist without the Son.
'All things were made by Him, ........
The FATHER made all things by the Son.
'and without Him was not any thing made that was made.'
The FATHER did not make any thing without the Son, nor any thing can come to exist that exist without the Son.
You guys need to learn how to read. It tells you right in the verse that these are the things the Messiah will need to govern the new body of Christ after he returns for us. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and space.
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
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