Daniel Chapter 8 - the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy

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CTK

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I don't know if you are being serious or not, but math was my favorite subject, though. I enjoyed the challenge. I don't recall getting A+s, more like A-s through B-s, somewhere in that range.
I am sorry… I should have placed an emoji in my response. I was attempting to draw out how you are able to use the relevant dates, times, and events that can be found in the Scriptures to put together a series of interpretations, or reveal a possible misinterpretation within these verses.
As to the OP, the following is something I have noted but I have yet to make perfect sense of it all. All I know is that none of it should be taken in the literal sense, that it's involving a literal brick and mortar temple.
So true!

Therefore, applying some of these things to the days of A4E is not reasonable since that was involving a literal brick and mortar temple, but that which is involving the little horn isn't involving a literal temple.

Again, so true!
I tend to read the following like such, right or wrong.

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Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Yes, this is not literal. In this verse, the “he” is the little horn (papacy) who will come to “sit atop” the 4th beast around 500 AD. Therefore, it can and is not literal since the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. This is figurative, but all so horribly wrong. The Christian church would be taken over or appropriated by the little horn and bring in THEIR own brand of Christianity. It would be mixed with pagan practices, idols, rituals not in accordance with His church. Regarding the two things mentioned in this verse, they would “take away the daily sacrifice.” It was the cross that took away the need for the daily sacrifice. It was replaced / fulfilled by Jesus on the cross. But the little horn will come to declare that salvation is only through the RCC, their sacraments, they can forgive sin, etc. The Sanctuary was the way the Jews would keep His ceremonies and their sins would be covered over. Jesus would fulfill those “types and shadows,” but the little horn would make their own place of holiness in Rome, and they would design their own “ceremonies”, practices, commands, etc.
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

This is the little horn who would be given the power to sit atop the 4th beast kingdom after pagan Rome was slain (7:11). They would no longer keep His commandments and would come to place both “tradition and the magisterium” above Scripture.
Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Well, here is the time element we are discussing. I am not sure if you are identifying all the verses that pertain to this issue or you are placing them in some kind of order…

If Daniel is written to reveal the restoration of the Jews back to Jerusalem after their exile, and it is, then we should follow the prophecy and the events as the Jews are / have returned to Jerusalem. Although, God will use this most important prophecy to reveal His first coming and, in a greater picture or purpose, to reveal His plan of salvation for ALL mankind.

So the Jews would be given the responsibility to restore all the physical elements of Jerusalem- the land, the walls, the city, the Temple etc. They would also reinstate the 7 feast days, the ceremonies, the sacrifices, etc. They would restore them in the exact reverse order they were destroyed or taken away by the Babylonians. The ONLY piece of furniture they could not possibly restore was the first piece taken away by Jeremiah- the Ark of the covenant. Only God could restore the presence of God in the Sanctuary. This is the reason that everything had to be restored by the end of the 69th week if the prophecy. The Messiah would arrive in the last week and restore His presence in the Sanctuary.

So, what does this mean regarding the 2300 days? If the Messiah came to fulfill the Levitical practices - He was the Passover Lamb, He was our High Priest, He is our Temple and our Sanctuary, His sacrifice did away with the “daily,” then who is the ONLY one that can “cleanse the Sanctuary” with BLOOD? It can only be ONE INDIVIDUAL CAPABLE of cleansing the Sanctuary. And in this case, it means the “heavenly” Sanctuary.

The last 7 years of the prophecy were “set aside” by God for His Messiah to complete all of His God given mission- 9:24. During these final 7 years, He would attend 7 Passover Feasts. We certainly do not know what would have happened had He not been crucified but that was not in God’s plan since the beginning of time. But Jesus would represent the True sacrifice for our sins. At the end of the 70th week, the 4th and final Great Jubilee would come to an end which would bring in the Messiah and the end of all things. But the cross prevented this from happening. But that did not mean that Jesus would not fulfill all 6 of His requirements and establish His church on earth. He did! But He did do away with the need for a Temple, a Sanctuary, a High Priest, any further animal sacrifices, and He would be seen (by Stephen) standing at the right hand of God- His sacrifice was accepted!

But the calculation for this “cleansing of the Sanctuary” which could only be accomplished by Jesus is as follows:

From the first day of His arrival - which is the beginning of His ministry, was when he was baptized in the Jordan by John AND was anointed by His Father. The day the LAST Passover festival WOULD have taken place WITHIN the last week would have been on day 2340 (360 days @ 6.5 years) (Jesus was baptized 1/2 year before the first Passover He would attend, meaning the last Passover would occur 6 years after the first or 6.5 years after He was baptized in the Jordan.

There is only one more piece to this calculation- the 40 days.

As you are aware, whether it is the Temple, the High Priest or the sacrificial animal within the Passover ceremony, each of these MUST be “deemed clean / put and without imperfection.” This is according to Levitical law. Thus, Jesus would ALSO honor His Father’s laws and commands. Consequently, the very first thing that Jesus did after He was baptized was to go immediately into the desert for 40 days to be tempted by the devil. And of course He would not sin but only relied on the Word of God. Thus, this “cleansing or purification” period must be subtracted from the 2340 total days arriving at exactly 2300 days. The Sanctuary would be cleansed by the blood of the lamb.







Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days
If interested, since there is simply too much to address within these discussions, if you or anyone is interested in receiving a free copy of my commentary on Daniel, please send me a private message with your mailing address. Or, I could provide you with the information to go onto Amazon and purchase it yourself.

The commentary does not leave out any support or basis for the many new interpretations. And it is an easy read of 398 pages.
 
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CTK

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Daniel 9
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e]

This says nothing about the temple and city being destroyed at the beginning of the 70 weeks

Did you see my time line in post #47? It shows that the 70 weeks started with the captivity here it is again

Below are the time lines of each set of weeks

605 B.C. The start of the 70 weeks Daniel and the Jews are taken into captivity. (time goes backwards from the time of Daniel vision)

587 B.C. Jerusalem is destroyed by Babylon the start of the 7 weeks (runs parallel to some of the 62 weeks)

170/1 B.C. Onias 3rd is murdered (cut off and has nothing) the second anointed one the last of the Zadokite priesthood which was the start of the 70th week.

538 B.C. King Cyrus issues a decree to go and rebuild Jerusalem and Joshua (the first anointed one who was to come) goes back to rebuild Jerusalem. This is the end of the 7 weeks which was 49 years after 587 B.C. when Jerusalem was destroyed.

167 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th desecrates the temple ½ way through the 70th week. The abomination that caused desolation.

164/3 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th dies and the temple sacrifice is reestablished the end of the 70th week. (the end is poured out on him)

605 B.C.-171 B.C. 62 weeks or 434 years

587 B.C.-538 B.C. 7 weeks or 49 years

170/1 B.C.-164/3 B.C. 70th week or 7 years
Marty, with all due respect, Daniel had already been in exile for 67 of the 70 years in Babylon. In 3 years the Jews would return home. But Daniel was given the 70 weeks of years prophecy that revealed the length of time, the things that had to be restored, the coming and destruction of the Messiah to name a few AFTER they returned home.

Would you mind commenting on this? Thanks
 

Marty fox

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I didn't say you weren't a Christian. I said anyone that claims that label should not be interpreting the 70 weeks in the same manner unbelieving Jews might. It doesn't look good.

This is basically what we have here. Let's call one side A) the other side B).

Side A) includes Marty, plus professed Christians that agree with his view, plus all unbelieving Jews past, present, and future.

Side B) consists of all other professed Christians.

Side A) is arguing that the 70 weeks don't involve Christ. Side B) is arguing that the 70 weeks do involve Christ. And the way we settle this dispute is simple, right, Marty? The side that sides with all unbelieving Jews is the side that is interpreting the 70 weeks correctly. After all, how can unbelieving Jews possibly be wrong about anything, right?

Why not? Daniel was written to the Jews that were actually living in OT times not too gentiles living 2500 years later in gentile countries.

Of course, they would understand the 70 weeks when they lived through the terrible times of AE and the Maccabees you are so naive in your arrogant thinking living on this side of the cross.

If the 70 weeks does involve Jesus then why didn't Matthew (who wrote his gospel to the Jews) state it as he repeatedly in his gospel stated when Jesus fulfilled an OT prophecy? Matthew didn't do that about the 70 weeks did he does it make you think why?

Matthew would of because that would of helped the Jews to recognize Jesus as their Messiah so why wouldn't he if it the 70 weeks are about Jesus?

The unbelieving Jews are right about lots of things and know more about the OT times than you or I do but they are wrong about Jesus. Thus if the 70weeks aren't about Jesus then they are right.

The bible states that there is more than one anointed one.
 

Marty fox

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Marty, with all due respect, Daniel had already been in exile for 67 of the 70 years in Babylon. In 3 years the Jews would return home. But Daniel was given the 70 weeks of years prophecy that revealed the length of time, the things that had to be restored, the coming and destruction of the Messiah to name a few AFTER they returned home.

Would you mind commenting on this? Thanks
I already have I don't believe that its about Jesus the Messiah the original text says anointed one and the bible shows that there was more than one anointed one.

FYI my view was revealed to me by a Christian Jew who grew up as an unbelieving Jew who has basically memorized the OT. It wasn't the 70 weeks that converted her but Daniel chapter 7 because she sees Jesus in chapter 7 not chapter 9.
 

CTK

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I already have I don't believe that its about Jesus the Messiah the original text says anointed one and the bible shows that there was more than one anointed one.

FYI my view was revealed to me by a Christian Jew who grew up as an unbelieving Jew who has basically memorized the OT. It wasn't the 70 weeks that converted her but Daniel chapter 7 because she sees Jesus in chapter 7 not chapter 9.
Thank you ! Jesus is or can be found in all 12 chapters… The Scriptures are about Him not us… He is God…. Thanks again.
 

Earburner

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I don't know if you are being serious or not, but math was my favorite subject, though. I enjoyed the challenge. I don't recall getting A+s, more like A-s through B-s, somewhere in that range.

As to the OP, the following is something I have noted but I have yet to make perfect sense of it all. All I know is that none of it should be taken in the literal sense, that it's involving a literal brick and mortar temple. Therefore, applying some of these things to the days of A4E is not reasonable since that was involving a literal brick and mortar temple, but that which is involving the little horn isn't involving a literal temple.

I tend to read the following like such, right or wrong.

------------------------------------
Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
-----------------------------------------------

In my mind, all of these things are connected, thus involving the same things, the same era of time.

There are several clues in Daniel 8 that make it unreasonable to apply any of the following to the days of A4E.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Let's begin with verse 27 and let's assume the days of A4E are meant in all the above verses. One is then to believe, that if this is involving ancient times in Daniel's near future involving a literal temple that this would then equal this---and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it? But if it's not involving a literal temple, it then makes perfect sense why Daniel reacted like he did, and why no one understood the vision. Therefore, this alone means these 2300 days are not involving A4E but are involving something else.

IMO, it is connected with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that involves, for one. Which, BTW, I don't take 2 Thessalonians 2:4 in a literal sense. I tend to think it's involving the same temple that 1 Corinthians 3:17 is involving. Where I then see that involving Matthew 24:15-21 which I see involving Daniel 12:1, where Daniel 12:1 is involving what Daniel 12:11 is involving. And the fact a resurrection event is at the end of this, no way can any of this be involving the days of A4E nor 70 AD. No resurrection event followed any of those things.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

This is yet another clue. The time of the end couldn't possibly be meaning in the days of A4E. The fact the time of the end leads to the 1335th day, the literal end of this age, meaning when Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days. The fact there are no more days mentioned after Daniel 12:12, it only stands to reason that day 1335 is meaning the end of the days, which included the 2300 days, the 1290 days, and the time, times, and the dividing of time(1260 days). And I still can't make sense of all these days, as to how they fit together. Applying some of them or all of them to the days of A4E is not an option, in my mind. Therefore, the days of A4E couldn't possibly explain any of these days.
Welcome to the conundrums of God.
In 525 BC, God intentionally spoke the 70 week prophecy in that manner.
Not for reasons to reveal it to all, of WHEN the Messiah was to come, but to ONLY those at that time, who would be living in faith of "the Promise that was to come".

Now, for all of us who are "born again" of God's Holy Spirit, we KNOW that the Promise HAS COME. Therefore, we must listen closely to all of 1 Cor. Ch. 2, especially verse 5.
We must understand who they are that are standing in faith by the wisdom of men, as opposed to those who are standing in faith by the power [authority] of God.

Q. So, why is Daniel 9:24-27 a conundrum of God?
A. 1 Cor. 2
[6] Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
[7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[8] Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they KNOWN IT, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of glory.

Edit: please see my post #8 for a correct understanding of the prophecy of the 2300 days. Until one understands that Antiochus Epiphanes lV was indeed the ONLY "little horn" who was to come, any attempt to understand the 70 week prophecy, will remain to be a conundrum to the reader.
> The book of Daniel was written for Israel (that Age of God's indignation), as the book of Rev. was written for Christ's "born again" church (this Age of God's Grace).
 
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Earburner

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I agree with you on this, only that I think Jesus’ ministry started after John was put in prison.

Matthew 4:12Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; … 17From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
You could be correct on that. Though Jesus was officially ordained of His ministry upon His baptism, John was to "decrease" and Jesus was to "increase". John being put in prison, was definitely the sign of his "decrease".
 

Douggg

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605 B.C. The start of the 70 weeks Daniel and the Jews are taken into captivity. (time goes backwards from the time of Daniel vision)

587 B.C. Jerusalem is destroyed by Babylon the start of the 7 weeks (runs parallel to some of the 62 weeks)
Marty,

539 BCE - Daniel was visited by Gabriel in the first year of Darius, Daniel 9:1. So the fulfillment of the 70 weeks would be future of 539 BCE.
 

grafted branch

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You could be correct on that. Though Jesus was officially ordained of His ministry upon His baptism, John was to "decrease" and Jesus was to "increase". John being put in prison, was definitely the sign of his "decrease".
I agree His baptism was a significant event and I don’t have an issue with that being declared as the start of His ministry, for me it does remain a possibility. You brought up the point that John the Baptist must decrease, which is something I never really took a close look at.

In Matthew 11:2-3 JtB heard about the works of Christ and sends two of his disciples to ask Jesus if He is the one that should come. We could say JtB decreased in his faith since he did declare Jesus to be the Lamb of God and in John 1:34 he bare record that this is the Son of God.

In both John 1:31 and John 1:33 JtB says “I knew him not”, so we could say JtB decreased back to this condition of “knowing Him not” when he sent his disciples to question Jesus.

Also it’s interesting to note that JtB had disciples up until his death, from John 1:37 two of JtB’s disciples left him for Jesus and in Mark6:29 his disciples came and got his body after he was beheaded. So we can conclude JtB never decreased to the point where he no longer had any disciples.

One other thing is if JtB was one of the two witnesses, they are overcome and killed in Revelation 11:7. Perhaps JtB was overcome when he questioned Jesus before he was killed, meaning “overcome” and “decrease” are synonymous.

Ok, I’m just throwing these things out there, it might make a good thread of its own about how JtB decreased.
 
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Marty fox

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Thank you ! Jesus is or can be found in all 12 chapters… The Scriptures are about Him not us… He is God…. Thanks again.
Of course, but that doesn't mean every detail is about Him
 

Marty fox

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Marty,

539 BCE - Daniel was visited by Gabriel in the first year of Darius, Daniel 9:1. So the fulfillment of the 70 weeks would be future of 539 BCE.
Nothing in scripture states that the 70 weeks started after Daniels vision of the 70 weeks it only says "24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place".

Since the Jews didn't repent the 70 years became 70 weeks of years
 

Davidpt

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Daniel 9
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e]

This says nothing about the temple and city being destroyed at the beginning of the 70 weeks

Did you see my time line in post #47? It shows that the 70 weeks started with the captivity here it is again

Below are the time lines of each set of weeks

605 B.C. The start of the 70 weeks Daniel and the Jews are taken into captivity. (time goes backwards from the time of Daniel vision)

587 B.C. Jerusalem is destroyed by Babylon the start of the 7 weeks (runs parallel to some of the 62 weeks)

170/1 B.C. Onias 3rd is murdered (cut off and has nothing) the second anointed one the last of the Zadokite priesthood which was the start of the 70th week.

538 B.C. King Cyrus issues a decree to go and rebuild Jerusalem and Joshua (the first anointed one who was to come) goes back to rebuild Jerusalem. This is the end of the 7 weeks which was 49 years after 587 B.C. when Jerusalem was destroyed.

167 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th desecrates the temple ½ way through the 70th week. The abomination that caused desolation.

164/3 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th dies and the temple sacrifice is reestablished the end of the 70th week. (the end is poured out on him)

605 B.C.-171 B.C. 62 weeks or 434 years

587 B.C.-538 B.C. 7 weeks or 49 years

170/1 B.C.-164/3 B.C. 70th week or 7 years

------------------------------
605 B.C.-171 B.C. 62 weeks or 434 years

587 B.C.-538 B.C. 7 weeks or 49 years

170/1 B.C.-164/3 B.C. 70th week or 7 years
--------------------------------

Let's think about this for a minute.

Starting from 605 BC you have it involving 434 years of the 490 years, thus leaving 56 years remaining. You have this 434 years ending in 171 BC the era of time involving the days of A4E.

But then you have 49 of those remaining 56 years involving 587 B.C.-538 B.C. rather than being after 171 BC. Your math is crazy here. Because, no way can 434 years plus 49 years, if starting from 605 BC, is it then going to end up being 171 BC. Try this instead. 122 BC, not 171 BC. Math does not lie. No way can 483 years, 434 years plus 49 years, if starting from 605 BC, is it then going to end up at 171 BC.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what you are doing here. You're trying to make us believe that 434 years plus 49 years does not equal 483 years, it equals 434 years. If you have 490 years total, you can't have any of these sets of years, 434 years, 49 years, and 7 years, paralleling one another like you do here. Maybe you need to take a math refresher course, or maybe you were never very good in math to begin with, because, once again, your math is crazy here. You can't have 434 years plus 49 years equaling 434 years. That's not how math works. 434 years plus 49 years equals 483 years. 483 years from 605 BC does not equal 171 BC, it equals 122 BC. Good luck getting 122 BC to fit something relevant and significant.

And as to this last 7 years, I have no clue what you're trying to do with that. But it doesn't matter anyway since your math has been debunked already. Of course though, I know how that works around here. Nothing has been debunked, right? If you say so. I guess I will just have to take your word for that the same way I have to take your word for that you are more accurate than math itself is. Math says that 434 years plus 49 years equals 483 years. You say 434 years plus 49 years equals 434 years. No doubt about it, you are more accurate than math itself is. Only in your mind of course, but not in reality.
 

Marty fox

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I'm not trying to make you believe anything I'm just stating what I and others believe.

If they can't run parallel then why are they separated in sets?

Each set has a different purpose with a different prophesied time period Of course they can run parallel I mean we have 10 decades within a century don't we?
 

Douggg

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Nothing in scripture states that the 70 weeks started after Daniels vision of the 70 weeks it only says "24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place".

Since the Jews didn't repent the 70 years became 70 weeks of years
Marty, it is more to it than that.

In Daniel 9:25-27, Gabriel broke the 70 weeks into three segments....

7 weeks
62 weeks
1 week

That first 7 weeks involved a command given to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Note that Daniel was making his prayer in Daniel 9, knowing the 70 years of serving the king in Babylon (the Babylonian captivity) were about up, according to the Jeremiah prophecy, Jeremiah 25:11-12..

539 BC, Daniel was visited by Gabriel, in the first year of Darius's rule over the realm of the Chaldeans (Babylonians).

The very next year,
538/537 Cyrus gave the command allowing the Jews to return and rebuild their city, activating the end of the Babylon captivity.
 
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Marty fox

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Marty, it is more to it than that.

In Daniel 9:25-27, Gabriel broke the 70 weeks into three segments....

7 weeks
62 weeks
1 week

That first 7 weeks involved a command given to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Note that Daniel was making his prayer in Daniel 9, knowing the 70 years of serving the king in Babylon (the Babylonian captivity) were about up, according to the Jeremiah prophecy, Jeremiah 25:11-12..

539 BC, Daniel was visited by Gabriel, in the first year of Darius's rule over the realm of the Chaldeans (Babylonians).

The very next year,
538/537 Cyrus gave the command allowing the Jews to return and rebuild their city, activating the end of the Babylon captivity.
70 weeks were decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Thus the 70 weeks started at the same time as the 70 years
 

Douggg

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70 weeks were decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Thus the 70 weeks started at the same time as the 70 years
Marty, when did the commandment go forth to restore and to build Jerusalem ?

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
 

Earburner

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I agree His baptism was a significant event and I don’t have an issue with that being declared as the start of His ministry, for me it does remain a possibility. You brought up the point that John the Baptist must decrease, which is something I never really took a close look at.

In Matthew 11:2-3 JtB heard about the works of Christ and sends two of his disciples to ask Jesus if He is the one that should come. We could say JtB decreased in his faith since he did declare Jesus to be the Lamb of God and in John 1:34 he bare record that this is the Son of God.

In both John 1:31 and John 1:33 JtB says “I knew him not”, so we could say JtB decreased back to this condition of “knowing Him not” when he sent his disciples to question Jesus.

Also it’s interesting to note that JtB had disciples up until his death, from John 1:37 two of JtB’s disciples left him for Jesus and in Mark6:29 his disciples came and got his body after he was beheaded. So we can conclude JtB never decreased to the point where he no longer had any disciples.

One other thing is if JtB was one of the two witnesses, they are overcome and killed in Revelation 11:7. Perhaps JtB was overcome when he questioned Jesus before he was killed, meaning “overcome” and “decrease” are synonymous.

Ok, I’m just throwing these things out there, it might make a good thread of its own about how JtB decreased.
Yes, it can be a very good thread.

By JtB saying: "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world", no man could say those words, unless it were God the Father speaking through him. John 1:29, 36. Surely, all we who ARE "born again" of God's Holy Spirit, do testify to that fact.

The context of John 3:22-36 reveals that John knew exactly what his anointing and life was for: to be THE witness of who Jesus IS, Who then was to be THE Witness of Who God the Father IS.

[22] After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
[23] And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
[24] For John was not yet cast into prison.

[25] Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
[26] And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
[27] John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
[28] Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
[29] He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

[30] He must increase, but I must decrease.
[31] He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

[32] And what he [Jesus] hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
[33] [But] he that hath received His testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
[34] For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
[35] The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

[36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (See also John 3:18; Rom. 8:8-9).
 
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Earburner

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One other thing is if JtB was one of the two witnesses, they are overcome and killed in Revelation 11:7. Perhaps JtB was overcome when he questioned Jesus before he was killed, meaning “overcome” and “decrease” are synonymous.
Yes, I agree Rev. 11:7 is about John the Baptist and Jesus. Prior to the shedding of the blood of Jesus, his death, resurrection and ascension, the Gift of the Holy Spirit was was not ever permanently given to any man, except John the Baptist and Jesus. Zech. 4:14.
John 7
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Therefore, for those that we see who "are under the altar [of the OC]", died in faith believing in "the Promise that was to come", and were all then given "white robes" [the Gift of the Holy Spirit, upon the day of Jesus death]. Rev. 6:9-11.
All of such ARE the symbolic 144,000 of OC Israel, which are the firstfruits unto God's Gift of His Salvation.
 
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grafted branch

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Yes, I agree Rev. 11:7 is about John the Baptist and Jesus. Prior to the shedding of the blood of Jesus, his death, resurrection and ascension, the Gift of the Holy Spirit was was not ever permanently given to any man, except John the Baptist and Jesus. Zech. 4:14.
John 7
[39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Here is a list I made of the things that I see that connects JtB to the two witnesses.

Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias but in John 1:21 JtB answers “no” when asked if he is Elias. In some kind of way JtB is a single person that represents 2 people, himself and Elijah.

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Mathew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison (war), Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ (overcome), and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded (killed).

Revelation 11:9-10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded during Herod’s birthday party which could be what making merry and sending gifts is referring to.

Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the Spirit of life enters into them and they stand on their feet. In Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection (3 ½ days?) the graves are opened and the bodies of the saints arose. It is possible that JtB was one of the saints that arose at that time.



I think you have JtB and Jesus as the two witnesses, which I think is a strong possibility but it seems JtB correlates more so than Jesus does. What connections to the two witnesses do you see Jesus having?