Clyde Pilkington - Christ's Successful Work

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St. SteVen

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Romans 5:18 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.


8:31 video presentation time

Discussion questions:
- Was the work of the Atonement a complete work?
- Who will benefit from that work?
- Name the two individual acts referred to in Romans 5:18?
- Did both acts apply to all humankind?

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

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Aunty Jane

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Romans 5:18 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
I found that this man’s interpretation of Scripture justifies the Universalism that is promoted by yourself and others, but I don’t think he has the right interpretation because of the words he fails to emphasise.
The “ALL MEN” in the verses he quotes, doesn’t mean “ALL MEN” to include those who demonstrate no faith at all, or those who think “works” are somehow redundant, being almost a mockery of “the gift”.

It is true that no one can “earn” the gift...but that doesn’t mean that they don’t have to qualify for it.....and qualifying involves works, even as Jesus and his apostles encouraged works to prove that one is a genuine disciple of Christ....otherwise what was the point of the preaching work that he assigned to them? (Matt 10:11-14)

Discussion questions:
- Was the work of the Atonement a complete work?
Christ’s work was definitely completed in the atonement that he provided.....his sacrificed life fulfilled God’s law (a life for a life) and gave every human being on this planet a shot at salvation......but it was conditional.
Go back to Eden and see that life was also conditional for Adam. In order to keep living, he had to obey the commands of his Creator. Failure to do so resulted in death.
So the argument that nothing is required of us is bogus. Life was a gift, but obedience was required under penalty of death, in order to keep living.

- Who will benefit from that work?
All who take the necessary steps to bring their lives into harmony with God’s requirements. No human who fails to do this will be granted the gift because it is also conditional. Failure to meet the conditions will result in disappointment of the deepest kind according to Christ himself...
Matthew 7:21-23...
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven . Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; .’depart from me you who practice lawlessness.” (NASB)

This picture by no means indicates the salvation of “ALL MEN”....it doesn’t even indicate the salvation of all who identify as “Christians”....so what else is required in order to attain the “gift”? Certainly not the ability to do what these ones claim to be able to do.

Pilkington’s reference to Eph 2:8-9 is also missing the needed emphasis placed on one very important aspect pointed out again in verse 10, which he avoided....
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” (NASB)

So not works about which we might boast....but “works” are required nonetheless. What are these “good works” that we should “walk in”, that identify us as the genuine article, as opposed to those who are performing all sorts of other “works” that seem to be redundant...or of no value in God’s eyes....? (James 2:18-26)

What were Jesus’ express instructions before his return to heaven?
Matt 28:18-20..
“And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (NASB)

Since this was Jesus’ instruction to be carried out till “the end of the age”, it wasn’t just instructions given to the apostles, it was instruction to all of Christ’s disciples to be preachers of the “good news of God’s Kingdom” in “the entire inhabited earth” (Matt 24:14)......but if you ask the church going population what “God’s Kingdom” is, and what is the “good news” about it....often all you will hear is...crickets.

If we are all under obligation to be preachers, then we better know what that message is, or it’s not going to be done as Jesus instructed.

Matt 10:11-14...
“And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave . As you enter the house, give it your greeting. If the house is worthy, give it your peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your peace. Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.” (NASB)

Again what do you see in Jesus’ words that contradict what Pilkington has claimed?
There was necessity to accept the disciples and to allow them to teach those people how to be a Christian, and to show them what the Kingdom will mean for redeemed humanity. Failure to accept the message that Jesus is the Christ, and is King of that Kingdom, and to change your ways in order to qualify for the salvation he offers, puts one in company with the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah....not good company, wouldn’t you agree?

- Name the two individual acts referred to in Romans 5:18?

Again the next verse was omitted....
Rom 5:18-19....
“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.” (NASB)

So the opportunity is open to “all”, but not all will accept it and have it applied to them, which will disqualify them from everlasting life. “Many” will be made righteous, but not “all”. Conditions have to be met.

- Did both acts apply to all humankind?
Yes, both acts applied to “all”.....but not “all” are “worthy” in God’s eyes...only in their own estimations. They see their own works as enough, (they even remind Jesus about what they have done) but they have not participated in the work that Christ commanded all of his disciples to engage in. Jesus trained his disciples to be preachers and teachers....(and most of them were uneducated fishermen.)
Is that what the churches do? Do we see them out and about engaged in this work assignment? Or is that someone else’s job?

What was the purpose of the preaching of the kingdom if everyone was to be saved regardless of what they did? If you think that is possible, then you don’t know your Bible at all.....nor do you know the Jesus who commanded that this work be done right to the end, to give as many as possible the opportunity that is held out to every one of them....we have responsibilities too, and failure to meet those responsibilities was highlighted by the prophet Ezekiel....
Ezekiel 3:17-19, 21)
“Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me. When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself. . . . .However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself. (NASB)

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Now you know that “all” means something other than what Mr Pilkington is suggesting.....appealing as it may be to many who think God requires nothing of them, and that he may even save the devil and his rebel angels.....scripturally, there is not a chance of that happening.
 

St. SteVen

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1 Corinthians 15:22 explained by Public Hermit


For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:22

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

[
 

Aunty Jane

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1 Corinthians 15:22 explained by Public Hermit


For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:22

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

[
You missed the point entirely.....you cannot hold to your position unless you quote scripture that you believe supports your view......it is the entirety of scripture that proves a point, not the cherry picked verses that seem to say what you want them to.
1 Cor 15:22 doesn’t not negate all the other Scriptures that say the opposite. It’s all in the way you interpret things.

I did my best to explain by many using many scriptures that your view of ”all” does not hold true. “All” are offered the opportunity....but not “all” will put in the effort, desiring to water down the requirement to something that is easy, not difficult.
The cramped path that lead to life has a narrow gate....whereas the broad and spacious superhighway that most people choose as an easier way.....is apparently the one every person is on, but is a dead end. (Matt 7:13-14) Unless you find the gate and are determined to stay on that difficult path, you will not see everlasting life.

There are important reasons why there are only two roads......and the majority are on one....the saved are on the other. What makes the difference do you think?
 

St. SteVen

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I did my best to explain by many using many scriptures that your view of ”all” does not hold true. “All” are offered the opportunity....but not “all” will put in the effort, desiring to water down the requirement to something that is easy, not difficult.
You are doing your best to convince readers that "all" does not mean all.
And you accuse me of cherry-picking because I didn't throw the book at you.

Let look at the other scripture.
- one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people - ALL= all
- one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. - ALL = all

Therefore:
- Condemnation for all people was the result of the one trespass. (nothing required from those condemned)
- Justification and life for all people was the result of the one righteous act. (nothing required from those condemned)

Romans 5:18 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

[
 

St. SteVen

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There are important reasons why there are only two roads......and the majority are on one....the saved are on the other.
I think that is a terrible conclusion.
It indicates that there is either something terribly wrong with your claim, or something terribly wrong with your God.

Did God go to all the trouble to create a universe and make humankind in his own likeness so that he could incinerate that vast majority?
Perhaps he shouldn't have wasted his own time and ours. It seems insanely pointless.

I agree that there are consequences for our actions. But even humans don't put petty criminals on death row.
Only a tyrant of historic proportions would act in that way. Is God worse than any human tyrant in history?

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St. SteVen

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Romans 5:18 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
Furthermore, this verse is not a stand alone anomaly.
The very next verse works together to compound the points being made.

Notice the "just as" and "so also" dynamic. Which obviously means IN THE SAME WAY.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

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Aunty Jane

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Notice the "just as" and "so also" dynamic. Which obviously means IN THE SAME WAY.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Again you ignore all the Scripture that fights with your assumption about the word “ALL” in these verses.

The opportunity for everlasting life is open to ALL…..but not all will qualify because the Bible clearly states that not ALL will be saved. There are “goats” in the world who hate God and who disobey him….those who are bound for the “the lake of fire”…..what do you think “the lake of fire” is?
From Scripture it is obvious that it is not a literal place, but a symbolic one…..meaning the end of existence, since no one is ever said to come out of the place. Death and hades are cast into this lake….gone forever from human experience. The devil and the goats are bound for there as well…..forever dead.….no torture or suffering, just elimination from a life they did not appreciate as a gift from their Creator.
 

Lambano

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Romans 5:18 said:
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Romans 5:19 said:
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Paul's hedging! He's bargained down from "All" to "Many"! What's next, "A few"?

Hey, aren't these debates on the extent and applicability of the Atonement usually in the context of Calvinism v. Arminianism?
 
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Lambano

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Romans 5:17 in the immediate context of the verses in question said:
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Okay, what if it takes more than the Atonement by itself to justify a person? What if the applicability of the gift was contingent on receiving (Gr. λαμβάνω) it? Isn't accepting a gift an act of faith; see chapter 3 verse 28?
 
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St. SteVen

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Romans 5:18 said:
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
Romans 5:19 said:
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Paul's hedging! He's bargained down from "All" to "Many"! What's next, "A few"?
It doesn't say "many", it says "the many".

"... the many were made sinners..." (the many = all) - Right?
"... the many will be made righteous." (the many = all)

"... just as ... so also..." - vs 18
"... just as ... so also..." - vs 19

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St. SteVen

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Okay, what if it takes more than the Atonement by itself to justify a person?
I don't see "what if...", I see "... just as ... so also..." and "... just as ... so also..."

But, it's a good question.
Can we justify ourselves by any amount of works, or action?
It seems to me that this is beyond our doing.

Reminded me of this. (seems to backfire)

Luke 10:29 NIV
But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

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St. SteVen

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Romans 5:17 in the immediate context of the verses in question said:

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Okay, what if it takes more than the Atonement by itself to justify a person? What if the applicability of the gift was contingent on receiving (Gr. λαμβάνω) it? Isn't accepting a gift an act of faith; see chapter 3 verse 28?
Does that apply to the death that came to all humankind? Did we have to approve of it to receive it? (nope)
"... just as" and "... so also..."

And what does this quoted scripture above say about "God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness..."?
"... how much more..."

Whereas we have "... just as" and "... so also..." in verses 18 and 19, here we have,
"For if, by..." and "how much more..."

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St. SteVen

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Romans 5:17 in the immediate context of the verses in question said:

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Let's back up two verses further in the context. (this appears to be the quintessential UR passage) - LOL
What do we find here?

- the gift is not like the trespass
- the many died by the trespass of the one man
- how much more (???)
- ... did God’s grace and the gift...
- ... that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ... (came how?)
- overflow to the many! - vs 15

- Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin
- The judgment followed one sin...
- and brought condemnation...
- but the gift followed many trespasses...
- and brought justification. - vs 16

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

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St. SteVen

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Here's something I find interesting. Probably deserves its own topic.

My views on Ultimate Redemption (Universalism) are typically dismissed for not aligning with "a whole Bible view".
Seems that saw should cut both ways.

What happens if your "a whole Bible view" includes my scriptures
rather than dismisses them? - Then what?


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St. SteVen

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New topic:


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